Tier 1 Hockey in Minnesota, is it coming or already here?

[skateguymn]

An option would be to develop district wide Elite teams, call the team Tier I if you want. This would allow the top 1-3 players, maybe more, from any one association to compete on a fairly localized team against other District Tier I teams.
This would allow associations to cater to a more focussed group of people and the districts/associations can team up to organize/coach/develop and Cheer for the elite team.

This AAA-Association argument/debate will never be won by either side. People who enjoy Summer AAA do so because their child has a birth date that allows them to compete on a more equal playing field than Association Birth dates. This most evident from 1st year PW and younger. If your kids birth date is Jan-May or June he will be competing against kids his age/maturity level in AAA hockey. Of course those people will appreciate that structure more. Their child will be at the top of the heap.
Kids with birth dates in the second half of a calendar year will have a leg up in the current association hockey structure and those families will prefer to stay in that structure.

Given that the natural cut off for these two groups is approximate half the year (6 months) we can assume that half the hockey population would be proponents for for each side of the argument.

My assumption is that this movement is being driven by private organizations that will stand to profit (not naming names because that is their right and that right is what makes this country great) I think what is important is that we do what is best for the kids. Who's goal is it to develop the BEST player in our kids.....is it the kids desire or ours?
I admit every once in ahile I make myself stand back and take a breath. I love my boys, they love hockey but is missing a summer birthday party or event because of hockey really what is best for him?
Trust me my kid gets ice a lot. We go to the N.E.W.S tournaments, play AAA summer etc...
It is up to us to preserve their love of the game not drive them to hate it.

If we could all do our kids one favor it would be to stand back take a deep breath ane let some fresh air into our lungs (instead of refrigerant air) and ask ourselves, how much is enough? and how much is too much?

Sometimes I think we are being driven by the opportunities that privatized organizations put in front of us. The competition between families to have the best kid is not good for the kids.

[DMom]

you bring up the birth date issue, and I believe it's true that the early in the year kids have more success at the AAA level than at association levels. Have you ever saw the study someone did that said that a very high percentage (I don't exactly remember, but it was over 70%) of professional (jrs and NHL) players had a birthday before April 1st. I just searched the internet and couldn't find it, but I have always wondered if that would hold true for future Minnesota players because of the difference in age classifications. Does Canada use birth year? what does Europe use? they had some theories on why the other kids didn't excel, mostly that they weren't receiving positive reinforcement because they were always the youngest...wouldn't be the case in Minnesota.

I did see a Squirt Choice flyer recently and it indicated that MM is going with the July 1 date for their league.

I did find an interesting article on the numbers involved in "making it to the NHL".

http://www.danbylsma.com/Parcels.htm

whether or not Tier one would be the answer depends entirely on the coaching. As reflected by the recent tournaments, where lots of "good" kids were missing, how the teams are picked would also be an interesting dilemma.

[elliott70]

Elliott- Thanks for the reply on the timing. Please keep in mind that the minority members of kids that would play Tier 1 and their positions, as in any society, are not usually won in the poll of popular opinion but rather on a rule of law or policy already in existence set up for the protection of all individuals. If MN Hockey applies the current rules set forth by the Act of the U.S. Congress (Ted Stevens Act) sec 220524 entitled "General duties of national governing bodies" For the sport that it governs, a national governing body shall . . . (5) allow an amateur athlete to compete in any international amateur athletic competition conducted by any amatuer sports organization or person . . . ." and applies the rules set forth by U.S.A. Hockey Inc., MN Hockey based soley on the Rules in existence cannot deny players the right to play Tier 1 Hockey in the state of Minnesota. I believe one of the survey questions should have been whether or not MN Hockey should abide by the rules and regulations set forth by the U.S. Congress and U.S.A. Hockey Inc. or should MN Hockey be allowed to conduct hockey operations based on public opinion. If looked at in this light, it does not seem like this issue should take very long to decide. Can you explain the process of the inner workings of MN Hockey and how a change is made. How is the proposal made, who makes them, is their a notice sent out and how is the vote made and a decision finalized? Is it similar to getting a bill passed in our form of government? I hope that you will march for the rights of the minority position even if you don't personally agree with the policy but rather look at the current rules already in place with U.S.A. Hockey Inc.. This is America!

I realize I did not fully answer your question...
The process is fairly simple, if properly on the agenda a board member can move for action. If the proper number of votes are cast for the action, it passes. This can be done at any of the four regular meetings or at a special meeting called for that purpose.

[elliott70]

In addition, your interpretation of the language is probably not correct.
We do, indeed, have a process whereby all kids have the opportunity to pl;ay in international competition.

[elliott70]

"skateguymn""An option would be to develop district wide Elite teams, call the team Tier I if you want. This would allow the top 1-3 players, maybe more, from any one association to compete on a fairly localized team against other District Tier I teams.
This would allow associations to cater to a more focussed group of people and the districts/associations can team up to organize/coach/develop and Cheer for the elite "



Good concept but not workable through much of the state.

[AMERICAN]

ELLIOTT- Thanks for the information on the process. Now, a couple more questions. Has the MN board ever voted on the issue of Tier 1 hockey at the youth level and if so, what was the vote? Secondly, to your knowledge is there anyone currently on the board to make the motion to bring this matter to vote and if so, with your knowledge of the board what is the likely outcome? Thirdly, what specifically about my reading of the rules is not correct? Finally, can you explain where you say that MN Hockey has "a process whereby all kids have the opportunity to play in international competition"? Is this allowed at the Tier 1 level or are you talking about traveling across the border to play Rainy River? The point is, why is MN hockey adverse to allow a handful of kids (who can't afford to go to Shattock) to play in the National tournament designed by, sanctioned by, and run by U.S.A. Hockey?

[elliott70]

ELLIOTT- Thanks for the information on the process. Now, a couple more questions. Has the MN board ever voted on the issue of Tier 1 hockey at the youth level and if so, what was the vote?

Please excuse typos as I have a different keyboard today.
To my knowledge, no vote has been taken since my involvement beginning in 1994. Of course, originally there was a vote to establish team formation - that being community based. And we are reviewed by USA Hockey every so often (I don't know if they have a schedule to do this or if it is just random - as treview I believe was in 2004.

Secondly, to your knowledge is there anyone currently on the board to make the motion to bring this matter to vote and if so, with your knowledge of the board what is the likely outcome?

Right now the issue is in committee, if they(we, I am on the committee) decide to bring it forward it will be voted on.
AS of today if the issue was brought to the board I would say it would be defeated since it is in committee. If it were to be brought up though, I believe 80% of the board would consider the merit of the proposal, table it and then vote. My guess is it would not pass bases on the 20% not in favor of the idea to start.

[elliott70]

ELLIOTT- Thanks for the information on the process. Now, a couple more questions.

Thirdly, what specifically about my reading of the rules is not correct?

You talk about the opportunity to play internationally.
We participate in the select 16 & 17 process which is the method to select players to participate in those competitions.
SEcond, any properly regisitered team can apply to MN HOckey and then USA Hockey to travel to any foreign competition.

Finally, can you explain where you say that MN Hockey has "a process whereby all kids have the opportunity to play in international competition"?

Is this allowed at the Tier 1 level or are you talking about traveling across the border to play Rainy River? The point is, why is MN hockey adverse to allow a handful of kids (who can't afford to go to Shattock) to play in the National tournament designed by, sanctioned by, and run by U.S.A. Hockey?

These two seem like thay can be answered together and also by the previous response.
The national tournament is different than international competition. USA Hockey hosts a national event at various levels for various types of teams.
Participation in those events is determined by affiliates (such as Minnesota, Mass, Mich, Central). USA Hockey would love to have MN participate but they understand our situation. We work hard with USA Hockey and all the other affiliates.

[elliott70]

more to come

[edge]

Elliot,
So A person can put a tier I or II team together and try for nationals? So could they play the games in the fall and spring to get their games in and still play association hockey in the winter.
If it was tier I wouldn't they have to play off against SSM to see who goes on to nationals.
But if a team is put together for a U 12 or U 14 and SSM doesn't have a team at that level that team goes correct.
So why doesn't the MM do something like that? I know you can't answer that.

[jancze5]

Personally, we all know I am pro Tier 1 but the need for it in Minnesota may not exist entirely, although the option is what I'm for.

BUT

Why not have a sanctioned Minnesota Hockey Tier 1 AAA birth year spring/summer league? Forget showcase and all the other wannabe AAA programs, let them have summer AA for the second tier of players want to have fun and keep playing hockey, nothing wrong with that.
Introduce an actual statewide program that has 8 or so teams.
3 in the cities, 1 in Moorhead, 1 up-North, 1 in Duluth, 1 in St Cloud, 1 down South. Play a home and away and have an end up summer tournament. If the teams are strong enough, which they will be, eventually every spring/summer AAA in the country will fly here for a summer vacation and play hockey against TOP end kids.

In this fashion you would build some solid competition on an elite level in the state and still allow the hometown winter in the same capacity.

Just a thought, not sure if it would work but a concept.

[PMC07]

To play in the tier 1 national tourney I believe you need to play together all winter and have a minimum number of games, win a district tryout and advance.
If you look at the USA hockey national tourney website ND the last few years has sent a team or two to the Teir II national tourneys u14 and u16, they roster in the fall play the minimum 20 games, usually against registered canada teams then re roster for the winter on their local teams, and after the State tourneys are over, re roster back, play in any district tourney,"usually there is no one else" and go to the tourney. SSM plays them all the time, in fact last year SSM went to ND to play them in 3 games. SSM went 2 and 1 against them. SSM went on to win the Tier I and the ND starz won the tier II.16U tourney
from what I have been told Minn. hockey doesn't allow this.

[elliott70]

Elliot,
So A person can put a tier I or II team together and try for nationals? So could they play the games in the fall and spring to get their games in and still play association hockey in the winter.

yES, OR An assn could play tier II with the proper age kids.'
You need to get it on the agenda early in the year - summer meeting would be latest, April meeting would be best.

If it was tier I wouldn't they have to play off against SSM to see who goes on to nationals.
Yes.

But if a team is put together for a U 12 or U 14 and SSM doesn't have a team at that level that team goes correct.
Unless other teams come forward in time.

So why doesn't the MM do something like that? I know you can't answer that.
I can't anwswer that.

[elliott70]

Personally, we all know I am pro Tier 1 but the need for it in Minnesota may not exist entirely, although the option is what I'm for.

BUT

Why not have a sanctioned Minnesota Hockey Tier 1 AAA birth year spring/summer league? Forget showcase and all the other wannabe AAA programs, let them have summer AA for the second tier of players want to have fun and keep playing hockey, nothing wrong with that.
Introduce an actual statewide program that has 8 or so teams.
3 in the cities, 1 in Moorhead, 1 up-North, 1 in Duluth, 1 in St Cloud, 1 down South. Play a home and away and have an end up summer tournament. If the teams are strong enough, which they will be, eventually every spring/summer AAA in the country will fly here for a summer vacation and play hockey against TOP end kids.

In this fashion you would build some solid competition on an elite level in the state and still allow the hometown winter in the same capacity.

Just a thought, not sure if it would work but a concept.

Off-season hockey is in discussion in committee with a concept similar to this.

[elliott70]

To play in the tier 1 national tourney I believe you need to play together all winter and have a minimum number of games, win a district tryout and advance.
If you look at the USA hockey national tourney website ND the last few years has sent a team or two to the Teir II national tourneys u14 and u16, they roster in the fall play the minimum 20 games, usually against registered canada teams then re roster for the winter on their local teams, and after the State tourneys are over, re roster back, play in any district tourney,"usually there is no one else" and go to the tourney. SSM plays them all the time, in fact last year SSM went to ND to play them in 3 games. SSM went 2 and 1 against them. SSM went on to win the Tier I and the ND starz won the tier II.16U tourney
from what I have been told Minn. hockey doesn't allow this.

USA HOckey rules say a national bound team cannot have double rostered players.
You can apply for variances.
MNhockey allows anything that is presented as long as it does not create conflicts with what has been established and works.

The ideas cannot be rejected if not presented.

[PMC07]

I don't know if you are doubled rostered by rostering one team in sept, then on nov 1 roster roster with your winter team until the season is over than roster back, I don't know the rules but ND is plaing in the Tier II go look on the webpage the last two years, I watched them play SSM in grafton last year, it was kids from all over ND, the are called the ND Starz there picture is on the 2007 webpage as champions, I talked with the scheduler in grafton and he told me that is how the rostered it and how it works. they have sent teams to the tierII 14u and 16U they are also on past histroty link on the webpage.

[elliott70]

I don't know if you are doubled rostered by rostering one team in sept, then on nov 1 roster roster with your winter team until the season is over than roster back, I don't know the rules but ND is plaing in the Tier II go look on the webpage the last two years, I watched them play SSM in grafton last year, it was kids from all over ND, the are called the ND Starz there picture is on the 2007 webpage as champions, I talked with the scheduler in grafton and he told me that is how the rostered it and how it works. they have sent teams to the tierII 14u and 16U they are also on past histroty link on the webpage.

Yes I am aware of them.
They have a variance because none of the other ND teams (regualr teams) are national bound.

[DMom]

do we have off-season Tier I teams? The Icemen used to bill themselves as Tier I AAA-- not sure with the shakeups they've had if they still do.

what if all of the winter Tier II teams are considered house teams? than you can be rostered on two teams right? after mites most of the teams have the same schedule nowadays anyway, at least in the smaller associations. All of our C teams play in the same number of league games against other associations and travel to tournaments. it's just a matter of definition, and a majority vote.

I understand people want more, but I don't want to see association hockey change too much.

[PMC07]

Back a number of years ago, when everyone in the nation was using the same age level, "Minnesota and ND" are the only place in the world that don't use the birth year" the State Bantam Champ from Minn. and ND went to the National Tier II tourney. I watched Bloomington Jefferson play the year EGF hosted it a while back, also in Grand Forks Purper Arena You will see pictures of GF South and GF North as Champions with many kids from GF on the team that went on to playDI, that all changed when Minn and ND didn't go along with USA hockey with the age level change.
The ND teams that go now of course use the birth year and next year on the under 14 the state is getting out of forming the team and allowing as many teams to form as wanted "parent run" with the knowledge of possible playing of state wide and then district as they are now in the Great Plains region with SD, Montana, and Wyoming to incourage particapation and because USA hockey wants teams from all districts to particapate, which I believe would include Minn. Also like I said if you want to see who plays in which class including SSM look on the web. Tier I I believe has to play together all winter and have more games to qualify.

[PMC07]

Back a number of years ago, when everyone in the nation was using the same age level, "Minnesota and ND" are the only place in the world that don't use the birth year" the State Bantam Champ from Minn. and ND went to the National Tier II tourney. I watched Bloomington Jefferson play the year EGF hosted it a while back, also in Grand Forks Purper Arena You will see pictures of GF South and GF North as Champions with many kids from GF on the team that went on to play DI, that all changed when Minn and ND didn't go along with USA hockey with the age level change.
The ND teams that go now of course use the birth year and next year the the state is getting out of forming the team and allowing as many teams to form as wanted "parent run" with the knowledge of possible playing off state wide and then district as they are now in the Great Plains region with SD, Montana, and Wyoming to encourage participation and because USA hockey wants teams from all districts to participate, which I believe would include Minn. Also like I said if you want to see who plays in which class including SSM look on the web. Tier I, I believe has to play together all winter and have more games to qualify.
The catch in Tier II is all 20 games have to come against "registered" USA or Canadian teams, AAA or showcase games don't count, so to get 20 games in gets tough, the Canadians pick teams in early Sept and that is the direction they go, making sure they are all registered or an early tourney in Minnesota"Richfield" or SSM which is more than happy to play them. The kids and parents from whom I talked to say it is a great experience. The Tier I is going on at the same time and the play isn't that much different outside of the fact the Tier I teams it is apparent that they have been together 325 days and played 120 games,with their systems but the individual talent is there at both levels, and scouts from everywhere are at all the games, from what I have been told by people that have been there.

[elliott70]

Back a number of years ago, when everyone in the nation was using the same age level, "Minnesota and ND" are the only place in the world that don't use the birth year" the State Bantam Champ from Minn. and ND went to the National Tier II tourney. .........
......... that all changed when Minn and ND didn't go along with USA hockey with the age level change.

The two concepts had nothing to do with each other in Minnesota.

There have been several times in th epast where different affiliates had different birth days within an age level.

[elliott70]

The kids and parents from whom I talked to say it is a great experience. The Tier I is going on at the same time and the play isn't that much different outside of the fact the Tier I teams it is apparent that they have been together 325 days and played 120 games,with their systems but the individual talent is there at both levels, and scouts from everywhere are at all the games, from what I have been told by people that have been there.

Who's scouting peewee and bantam kids?

[PMC07]

The kids and parents from whom I talked to say it is a great experience. The Tier I is going on at the same time and the play isn't that much different outside of the fact the Tier I teams it is apparent that they have been together 325 days and played 120 games,with their systems but the individual talent is there at both levels, and scouts from everywhere are at all the games, from what I have been told by people that have been there.

Who's scouting peewee and bantam kids?

Go to a bantam game in Canada or a AAA tourney in Winnipeg and you will see, didn't you read in the paper earlier how 4 14 year olds signed with colleges, the youngest ever, I don't agree with it either, but I was told by many of the ND families that went to the 16U the the stands were full of college and Jr scouts, there are plenty of 17 year ols in the jrs in the world, like it or not. Canada hold a 14 year old WHL draft every year.

[PMC07]

The kids and parents from whom I talked to say it is a great experience. The Tier I is going on at the same time and the play isn't that much different outside of the fact the Tier I teams it is apparent that they have been together 325 days and played 120 games,with their systems but the individual talent is there at both levels, and scouts from everywhere are at all the games, from what I have been told by people that have been there.

Who's scouting peewee and bantam kids?

I don't know? you'd have to ask Nick Oliver from Roseau, didn't he sign with St Cloud before he even played 1 HS game? when did they start looking at him?

[elliott70]

The kids and parents from whom I talked to say it is a great experience. The Tier I is going on at the same time and the play isn't that much different outside of the fact the Tier I teams it is apparent that they have been together 325 days and played 120 games,with their systems but the individual talent is there at both levels, and scouts from everywhere are at all the games, from what I have been told by people that have been there.

Who's scouting peewee and bantam kids?

Go to a bantam game in Canada or a AAA tourney in Winnipeg and you will see, didn't you read in the paper earlier how 4 14 year olds signed with colleges, the youngest ever, I don't agree with it either, but I was told by many of the ND families that went to the 16U the the stands were full of college and Jr scouts, there are plenty of 17 year ols in the jrs in the world, like it or not. Canada hold a 14 year old WHL draft every year.

14 year olds cannot sign letters of intent, college coaches can't even talk to them. Verbally commit, fine. But that means nothing on either side.
At the midget level, that's a different story.

College scouts and junior scouts are overworked as it is with little pay (relative) and not much free time. You will not see official college scouts at the USA Hockey national peewees. If they are at a bantam event it is more by accident then anything.