The comments made in another post and recent current events involving 'AAA' hockey have prompted me to start another thread of Minnesota Hockey versus USA Hockey. My goal is to establish a meaningful debate and to help set the stage, I have drafted my understanding of the rationale below to aid in that debate. The outcome should help others on this site including those responsible for Minnesota Hockey policy in-sight from a public forum that could eventually influence policy in this state.
The one fact that I believe has resulted in the two different approaches is that in Minnesota, there are more youth hockey participants (teams) then in the rest of the 49 states. Because of the interest, communities have developed and built facilities in great numbers to support hockey, but that support is based on a Tier II approach that fosters development of all players. No kid interested in playing hockey is turned away. If he turns out, he will find a place to play in his own community.
This causes the two systems or approaches. In an ideal sense, Minnesota would operate on its own system and USA on its own. At tier II level this is what is happening. D8 and D4 have Iowa and Wisconsin teams participating at various levels. D15 and D16 teams play a schedule that has teams from North Dakota and Canada on a regular schedule. D11 teams play teams from Thunder Bay regularly during the season. That’s great.
But at Tier I, the Minnesota system which has not pushed Tier I, is finding Tier I organizations being "based" in Minnesota, but using a loop hole in the rules. The foundation for Tier I is organizational hockey, a term used by USA hockey to allow commercial sponsorship of elite teams the highest level being designated “AAA”. Hence the names like “Pizza Kings”. Tier I teams are the antitheses of Tier II because they are select and focus on developing a few players.
‘AAA’ hockey is starting to creep into Minnesota. Its intent is on selling the best versus the best and the highest level of competition you can find anywhere. Seasons are longer, travel is increased, along with the money to support it, and the pressure to play extended seasons and year round ‘AAA’ is becoming the norm. In the end its only, basic selling point is improving yourself in order to get ahead faster than your neighbor. Sports in general are designed to be community based, all kids start out playing with and against their schoolmates in a program engineered and designed to provide for the community and its residents, it is group based not individual.
Nationwide hockey is becoming more individual based with the underlying force being money. Look around at all of the programs that are available for kids to train harder, get faster and stronger, all designed to improve the individual. Individuals are becoming more intent on selling their program as the best because the more they sell the more they earn, it’s fast becoming a me, me, me, instead of we, we, we. Which ultimately is the emphasis on ‘AAA’ hockey, how do I get to the next level?
The Wisconsin Area Hockey Association is the governing body of all teams based in Wisconsin. Their system is set-up differently than Minnesota’s in order to provide more opportunities for players within their boundaries. This is done to support the growth of hockey in Wisconsin as clearly stated in the by-laws and purposes as outlined in their hand book. Three in particular of note are stated below from their handbook:
Association (W.A.H.A.) Purpose
To encourage, improve, and promote the standards and extent of ice hockey in the state of Wisconsin.
To encourage youth in the development of high school hockey.
By-Laws, Article 1
To foster, advance, develop and regulate the game of ice hockey as an amateur sport in the state of Wisconsin.
Just like Minnesota’s governing body, the intent is to develop players within that state with the idea that these players play for there communities for which they reside in. In turn feeding the high school programs.
Due to lower numbers in particular areas in the state of Wisconsin, W.A.H.A. allows for club teams to form to provide the game at the appropriate level for players that are more spread out in rural areas, one in particular is Tier 1. Tier 1 teams are required to have players from their particular area and have a home base and rink located within Wisconsin.
Taken from the W.A.H.A. handbook:
General Intent: The general intent of Tier I Hockey in Wisconsin is to provide an opportunity for the best Wisconsin youth players to develop and compete at the highest level of hockey available in North America at their ages by and through USA Hockey and WAHA. Tier I Hockey in Wisconsin is limited to those youth players who have the desire and ability to play at a higher level and wish to continue to develop as players by playing Tier I Hockey. Tier I Hockey is not intended to place pressure on any Youth Player to play Tier I Hockey.
The guidelines are designed to promote a high level of hockey for kids in Wisconsin who wish to pursue and develop at this level. In order for this to happen the residency requirements are very limited so that it can draw as many kids in as possible who wish to have access to such a program, so they are not limited by where they live in Wisconsin.
In reviewing a team in particular to see where they are based and mainly operate out of here are some numbers:
(Stats taken as of 3/5/08)
Practices:
53 of 70 practices at Minnesota rinks (76%), 33 at one rink (47%) in particular which is 55 miles from home rink
17 of 70 practices at designated home rink (24%)
Games:
12 of 48 games played in Wisconsin (25%), only 6 played at home rink
22 of 48 games played in four other states, besides Minnesota & Wisconsin (46%)
14 of 48 games played in Minnesota (29%)
In looking at the numbers, where could you determine this team to be “home based”?
It is sanctioned by W.A.H.A. and thus is governed by its rules and driven by its by-laws and purposes, yet is it?
Their roster is mostly Minnesotan, with the minimum requirements. They operate under a governing body that allows certain rules to provide for their residents, yet this team spends 58% of its time in Minnesota, virtually avoiding all of Minnesota hockey’s rules and standards, but they are taking from Minnesota and Wisconsin what they want, to create what they feel is the best of the best, there selling point, this is how you get to that top level.
With this "We can get you there, your community cannot, we are better" kind of attitude comes pressure. The pressure to succeed exists because of the time and money level commitment made by these parents and the expectation of the return on their investment based on what 'AAA' programs are selling them on. Add into that the thousands of miles in the car, tournaments all over the country, weekend series in cities hundreds of mile away. They then have an expected result for what they have put in, which filters right down to the kids, instead of the game being the focus, it becomes, “Well, I spent $10,000.00 on this season and all my free time, he better be great for all of that.”
This link below shows video footage of a ‘AAA’ squirt team and what can happen when this Tier 1 pressure is started at an early age, when kids are still developing and growing. The amount of time and money spent on these programs takes the focus of why players play the game away from its intent; hard work, leadership, accepting responsibility to team and self, handling adversity, problem solving, working in a group setting, following instruction from others, learning to support one another, understanding that there are things out of your control that you have to learn to deal with, having a sense of pride in representing your community and most importantly having fun. The life lessons that are being missed because the focus is on being the greatest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t9kbgnV89U
An interesting article that touches on ’AAA’ players is linked here:
http://blog.mlive.com/lcn/2008/02/more_ ... urnin.html
Two points of interest from this article:
1.High school hockey provides a sense of community that travel hockey cannot.
2."You walk through the halls, the young kids look up to you," Dettrick Pierzinski of Brighton High School. "Coming out of the locker room and the little kids want to get a high-five. They are so excited to see us. You don't get any of that in triple A."
Hockey in Minnesota is considered widely to be the greatest in the country. The culmination of many players careers is the opportunity to play for their high school and represent their communities. The pinnacle of this is a team making a trip to the state tournament. Many professional players who have come out of Minnesota continually note their best experiences came from high school hockey and the state tournament. Many of them stayed home and almost all of them played for their community for many years. They were examples and role models, leaders and teammates, things that they cannot get when they play ‘AAA’ year round. The one thing that helps mould a great hockey player is passion and effort, when you step onto the ice as a high school player and people are cheering for your team that passion gets driven home.
To me, ‘AAA’ is not the answer, an option that everyone has the right to choose, but ultimately has no place in Minnesota hockey. How many people show up to watch Honey Baked Ham play Little Caesars, how many little kids grow up dreaming of putting on Chicago Mission jersey? Now flip that with the sectional finals at Mariucci this year, there were more fans in that arena to watch two high school hockey games than in a ’AAA’ season combined, more excitement and passion in the stands and on the ice. Student sections, youth kids in jerseys, everything about it was incredible and it filters down into the youth ranks, just ask the Edina and Chaska pewee players what it was like in their regional game with winners going to state and the losers going home, the atmosphere was incredible. Now if you had a ’AAA’ team looking to head to the state with kids from 3 different states, coming from 14 different youth programs, where is the excitement? What do you cheer? Pizza! Pizza! I guess.
Tier 1 Hockey in Minnesota, is it coming or already here?
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
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fromthecrease
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fromthecrease
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High school players leaving to play juniors has been common over the last 15 years or so and one big reason is the 'AAA' philosophy, in order to be the best you have to constantly be playing up.
If my memory serves me right, Lucia was huge on Junior hockey players during his tenure at Colorado College, a lot of his incoming recruits were stepping onto the ice as 21 year old freshman, there is a distinct advantage to that logic. Guys that I played with that were recruited were told time and time again to go play Juniors for a year or two and they would be watching to see how they do before they commit to them and players are adjusting to that line of thinking. Its another situation where hockey is unique to other sports in America, how many basketball, football or soccer leagues are around that allow for a kid to play their sport for a couple of years after high school so they can develop and mature before they hit the ice as a college freshman. If you were a coach at a D1 school and had the opportunity to bring in a kid who was 18 and fresh from high school or a kid that just turned 21and they both offer the same attributes, you are going to go with the 21 year old who has matured more mentally and physically than the 18 year old. This process was a benefit college coaches and the college game.
It's a trickle down affect, as that trend continued to develop you began to see kids leaving as seniors and sometimes juniors to jump start the process and to prepare to play at the collegiate level, they began adjusting to what the college coaches wanted and were looking for, they were changing their approach. This stems from the 'AAA' philosophy that they grew up with, the only way I get better is if I play with the best. So the recruiting process began to change and you started to see guys committing to colleges earlier and earlier (i.e. Peter Mueller as a high school freshman, Jordan Schroeder as a freshman, etc.) and then going to play juniors or NDTP like the coaches wanted and they are getting to college as 18 year olds again, kids read about so and so verbally committing at 14, and its a hey I should do that so they start jumping around to get their name in the paper.
Coaches began recruiting younger and younger in order to get the top players and then sending them to Junior teams to prepare, some colleges even have direct relations with Junior teams to develop their incoming recruits, but now if they don't bring the top recruit in right away they leave for something better. As a result, high school hockey was down for a while and some changes were made to keep these top players from leaving, like the increased game schedule, the Elite Hockey League, some high school hockey coaches aren't teachers anymore leading to more former pro guys coaching (Housley, Giles, Kivilhame, Vanelli etc.) and its started to work and Minnesota High School Hockey is on the rise again and more guys that are going to college now are developing along the course (high school, then maybe a stop at juniors, then college) and I hope that continues, because that is good for hockey.
The Gopher teams that won National titles were teams that had kids that played through high school and either played as freshman or went to Juniors for a couple of years after high school. They were older and more mature and could handle the situations that were presented to them at the collegiate level because they stuck around and went the original course. Look at Alex Kangas, he played high school hockey graduated with his buddies played two years of junior hockey and was unbelievable in net for the Gophers this weekend, he supplanted Frazee who was a jump starter that moved around from city to city and ended up at the NDTP and then Gophers as an 18 year old Freshman. Most current crop of Gophers have all tried to jump start the process early and look at the results, they leave early to jump start the next phase before they ever really accomplish anything (Holy Cross anyone?) and now you see Lucia taking Minnesota High School hockey players (White, Fischer, Bariball all were suppose to play juniors but had to skate early because of the 'AAA' guys leaving).
You think he has adjusted he line of thinking after the run of AAA players have burned him (Johnson, O'Brien, Oksposo, Frazee, Goligoski, Mueller, Kessel) The best Gopher players have been guys that played the game and accomplished everything they could at each level before moving onto the next level, thats called development. And some kids want to skip that process and thats what I feel Tier 1 and 'AAA' is all about, jump start your career at 12 years old and get a head. The bottom line is this if you are good they will find you, not the other way around, not the 'AAA' way.
If my memory serves me right, Lucia was huge on Junior hockey players during his tenure at Colorado College, a lot of his incoming recruits were stepping onto the ice as 21 year old freshman, there is a distinct advantage to that logic. Guys that I played with that were recruited were told time and time again to go play Juniors for a year or two and they would be watching to see how they do before they commit to them and players are adjusting to that line of thinking. Its another situation where hockey is unique to other sports in America, how many basketball, football or soccer leagues are around that allow for a kid to play their sport for a couple of years after high school so they can develop and mature before they hit the ice as a college freshman. If you were a coach at a D1 school and had the opportunity to bring in a kid who was 18 and fresh from high school or a kid that just turned 21and they both offer the same attributes, you are going to go with the 21 year old who has matured more mentally and physically than the 18 year old. This process was a benefit college coaches and the college game.
It's a trickle down affect, as that trend continued to develop you began to see kids leaving as seniors and sometimes juniors to jump start the process and to prepare to play at the collegiate level, they began adjusting to what the college coaches wanted and were looking for, they were changing their approach. This stems from the 'AAA' philosophy that they grew up with, the only way I get better is if I play with the best. So the recruiting process began to change and you started to see guys committing to colleges earlier and earlier (i.e. Peter Mueller as a high school freshman, Jordan Schroeder as a freshman, etc.) and then going to play juniors or NDTP like the coaches wanted and they are getting to college as 18 year olds again, kids read about so and so verbally committing at 14, and its a hey I should do that so they start jumping around to get their name in the paper.
Coaches began recruiting younger and younger in order to get the top players and then sending them to Junior teams to prepare, some colleges even have direct relations with Junior teams to develop their incoming recruits, but now if they don't bring the top recruit in right away they leave for something better. As a result, high school hockey was down for a while and some changes were made to keep these top players from leaving, like the increased game schedule, the Elite Hockey League, some high school hockey coaches aren't teachers anymore leading to more former pro guys coaching (Housley, Giles, Kivilhame, Vanelli etc.) and its started to work and Minnesota High School Hockey is on the rise again and more guys that are going to college now are developing along the course (high school, then maybe a stop at juniors, then college) and I hope that continues, because that is good for hockey.
The Gopher teams that won National titles were teams that had kids that played through high school and either played as freshman or went to Juniors for a couple of years after high school. They were older and more mature and could handle the situations that were presented to them at the collegiate level because they stuck around and went the original course. Look at Alex Kangas, he played high school hockey graduated with his buddies played two years of junior hockey and was unbelievable in net for the Gophers this weekend, he supplanted Frazee who was a jump starter that moved around from city to city and ended up at the NDTP and then Gophers as an 18 year old Freshman. Most current crop of Gophers have all tried to jump start the process early and look at the results, they leave early to jump start the next phase before they ever really accomplish anything (Holy Cross anyone?) and now you see Lucia taking Minnesota High School hockey players (White, Fischer, Bariball all were suppose to play juniors but had to skate early because of the 'AAA' guys leaving).
You think he has adjusted he line of thinking after the run of AAA players have burned him (Johnson, O'Brien, Oksposo, Frazee, Goligoski, Mueller, Kessel) The best Gopher players have been guys that played the game and accomplished everything they could at each level before moving onto the next level, thats called development. And some kids want to skip that process and thats what I feel Tier 1 and 'AAA' is all about, jump start your career at 12 years old and get a head. The bottom line is this if you are good they will find you, not the other way around, not the 'AAA' way.
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hockeywatcher4
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egf hockey1
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Very well said, hopefully some of the AAA supporters will read your posts with an open mind and maybe change their mind. Somebody said it earlier, we have the best of both worlds in Minnesota, Play for pride during the winter, play AAA during the summer if you want to spend the extra money for your kid to be a superstar 
. My kid plays AAA too during the summer, the little bit they do isn't going to make them that much better, it is just fun for the kids to get to meet new people, befriend their archrival from the winter, that is what AAA hockey is all about.
. My kid plays AAA too during the summer, the little bit they do isn't going to make them that much better, it is just fun for the kids to get to meet new people, befriend their archrival from the winter, that is what AAA hockey is all about.-
54fighting
- Posts: 129
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AAA winter hockey
fromthecrease- Great post and I would say that I agree. There is one situation however that everyone seems to forget about when they start waxing poetic about the MN youth hockey experience. What happens if you live in an area that does not have much of a youth program.
Everyone likes to talk about staying at your local association and skating with your school buddies but I wonder how many would say that if they had to skate for an association that doesn't even field any A level teams.
I am not talking about squirts here but let's say you have a very good skater, someone at the Bantam level who shows signs of being able to go on to something beyond high school. Will he develop to his fulled potential playing at the B1 bantam level for two years and then going on to a HS program that wins 3-4 games a year? I ask this as a serious question. As a parent of a skater like this what do you think you would do.
Just another potential situation, not everything is as black and white as it may seem. It is easy to say everyone who chooses a path other than MN hockey is just trying to get ahead but there are areas where MN hockey could improve. AAA may be a good option for someone in this type of situation.
Everyone likes to talk about staying at your local association and skating with your school buddies but I wonder how many would say that if they had to skate for an association that doesn't even field any A level teams.
I am not talking about squirts here but let's say you have a very good skater, someone at the Bantam level who shows signs of being able to go on to something beyond high school. Will he develop to his fulled potential playing at the B1 bantam level for two years and then going on to a HS program that wins 3-4 games a year? I ask this as a serious question. As a parent of a skater like this what do you think you would do.
Just another potential situation, not everything is as black and white as it may seem. It is easy to say everyone who chooses a path other than MN hockey is just trying to get ahead but there are areas where MN hockey could improve. AAA may be a good option for someone in this type of situation.
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fromthecrease
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Thats why Tier 1 exists everywhere but in Minnesota, to provide those kids that don't have the opportunity in there area to play the game. Minnesota hockey has a base and virtually every town, or one near by, has an association. They offer waivers out for players to get the opportunity to play in other cities if they so desire, but they have to have a solid reason to, in fact just a few years ago an Iron Range team didn't have enough kids to field a bantam team, so the older kids played high school and the younger kids were allowed to return to peewees for another year. Odd situation, but Minnesota Hockey reacted accordingly to allow the kids the opportunity to play. The Minnesota kids that are chasing down Tier 1 are skirting the issue and hiding behind my kid wants to play at the best level, you don't need to play at the highest level as a peewee in order to play in college and beyond.
Playing on an 'A' team at any given level is all about a letter, to beat a dead horse, it boils down to how you play the game. If a player feels that he needs to play at a higher level to improve his or her skills, then he is starting down a dangerous and nasty road that can possibly lead to failure. You are basically saying that other people affect your development and hurt your chances of excelling one day, you are already looking outward at someone else for failure instead of focusing on how to improve yourself, the excuses are already starting and you haven't hit the ice. As I said if you are good they will find you.
Two examples are David Backes (Spring Lake Park) and Zach Lehrke (Park Rapids), both of these associations are small in nature and teeter between fielding 'A' level teams based on numbers and talent level. Currently Spring Lake Park has a squirt 'A' team and field no 'A' level teams, yet they have sent not one player but 2 onto Division 1 hockey schools. David Backes, played at Minnesota State and now skates in the NHL for the Blues and Backes success he had while staying in high school, inspired another young hockey player in Spring Lake Park, Addison Deboer, who went on to eclipse Backes scoring records at SLP, but now will be lacing them up this weekend in St Paul with Colorado College. So an association in Minneapolis that fields no 'A' teams basically has sent two kids on to D1 in the last 5 years.
Zach Lehrke from Park Rapids just recently signed to skate at Minnesota State, after a phenomenal season and a top 10 Mr Hockey Finalist he is going to take his game next year to Cedar Rapids, to continue to develop his game and then its on to Minnesota State. Here's a quote from Backes who wanted to play D1 right out of high school on his experience playing in juniors before and after his senior year of high school, "After seeing the junior setting during my senior year of high school, I thought it wouldn't hurt me to return to Lincoln to develop my game some more," Backes says. "I wanted to work on things like the power play and penalty killing." Key word work, he took the time to develop his game and Lehrke is going to do the same. I bet not too many people even knew Park Rapids had a hockey association down here in the cities yet there he is a product of an association with no 'A' teams and who knows how many kids he has inspired to work a little harder and dig a little deeper to achieve their goals and he did it in a small town.
Minnesota Hockey is not perfect, as nothing ever can be. But when you skate in the Bloomington Jefferson program as a youth growing up, the front of your jersey says Jefferson on it. When you play varsity you are a Jaguar, the only jersey with Jaguars on it is at that level and every kid in the association knows that and when you're a little kid that becomes the first goal you set, I want to play high school hockey. What other state can say that about its hockey?
Now if you would have asked anybody if Backes would get to the NHL playing in Spring Lake Park back in 2001, I'd be willing to bet that everyone would say no way if they didn't know the kid. If I told you way back in 2005 a kid from Park Rapids would be one of the top scorers in the state, a Mr Hockey Finalists and sign a D1 letter in 2008, you would think I was on something. The point is, kids develop at different rates and different times, absolutely nothing can be done to accelerate this process, thats why it is a game, games are unpredictable.
Sometimes it seems that people feel there is something out there that will turn them around and make them great, some team, some training program, playing in a National tournament as a 12 year old, some outside influence that will get them "there". The simple truth is all you need is a mirror and a good long hard look, because if you want to get there, the answer is staring right back at you.
Playing on an 'A' team at any given level is all about a letter, to beat a dead horse, it boils down to how you play the game. If a player feels that he needs to play at a higher level to improve his or her skills, then he is starting down a dangerous and nasty road that can possibly lead to failure. You are basically saying that other people affect your development and hurt your chances of excelling one day, you are already looking outward at someone else for failure instead of focusing on how to improve yourself, the excuses are already starting and you haven't hit the ice. As I said if you are good they will find you.
Two examples are David Backes (Spring Lake Park) and Zach Lehrke (Park Rapids), both of these associations are small in nature and teeter between fielding 'A' level teams based on numbers and talent level. Currently Spring Lake Park has a squirt 'A' team and field no 'A' level teams, yet they have sent not one player but 2 onto Division 1 hockey schools. David Backes, played at Minnesota State and now skates in the NHL for the Blues and Backes success he had while staying in high school, inspired another young hockey player in Spring Lake Park, Addison Deboer, who went on to eclipse Backes scoring records at SLP, but now will be lacing them up this weekend in St Paul with Colorado College. So an association in Minneapolis that fields no 'A' teams basically has sent two kids on to D1 in the last 5 years.
Zach Lehrke from Park Rapids just recently signed to skate at Minnesota State, after a phenomenal season and a top 10 Mr Hockey Finalist he is going to take his game next year to Cedar Rapids, to continue to develop his game and then its on to Minnesota State. Here's a quote from Backes who wanted to play D1 right out of high school on his experience playing in juniors before and after his senior year of high school, "After seeing the junior setting during my senior year of high school, I thought it wouldn't hurt me to return to Lincoln to develop my game some more," Backes says. "I wanted to work on things like the power play and penalty killing." Key word work, he took the time to develop his game and Lehrke is going to do the same. I bet not too many people even knew Park Rapids had a hockey association down here in the cities yet there he is a product of an association with no 'A' teams and who knows how many kids he has inspired to work a little harder and dig a little deeper to achieve their goals and he did it in a small town.
Minnesota Hockey is not perfect, as nothing ever can be. But when you skate in the Bloomington Jefferson program as a youth growing up, the front of your jersey says Jefferson on it. When you play varsity you are a Jaguar, the only jersey with Jaguars on it is at that level and every kid in the association knows that and when you're a little kid that becomes the first goal you set, I want to play high school hockey. What other state can say that about its hockey?
Now if you would have asked anybody if Backes would get to the NHL playing in Spring Lake Park back in 2001, I'd be willing to bet that everyone would say no way if they didn't know the kid. If I told you way back in 2005 a kid from Park Rapids would be one of the top scorers in the state, a Mr Hockey Finalists and sign a D1 letter in 2008, you would think I was on something. The point is, kids develop at different rates and different times, absolutely nothing can be done to accelerate this process, thats why it is a game, games are unpredictable.
Sometimes it seems that people feel there is something out there that will turn them around and make them great, some team, some training program, playing in a National tournament as a 12 year old, some outside influence that will get them "there". The simple truth is all you need is a mirror and a good long hard look, because if you want to get there, the answer is staring right back at you.
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new2hockey
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Excellent perspective fromthecrease, but I still think 54fighting has a point. Yes, most everywhere in the state has an association. But take a place like Sleepy Eye, for example. Could you expect a kid to develop and then be noticed in that hockey hotbed 
. I know there's a Bruggeman kid from Sleepy Eye playing for Shattuck's AAA Midget team, and I can't blame him. There's no support for hockey in his community, so why should he stay? It's not fair for him.
. I know there's a Bruggeman kid from Sleepy Eye playing for Shattuck's AAA Midget team, and I can't blame him. There's no support for hockey in his community, so why should he stay? It's not fair for him."Yeah, whatever. I just want to play hockey."
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MoreCowBell
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fromthecrease it seams when you first started your post it seemeed that you really were going to add some insight into the tier 1 issue, but really you already had your mind made up before you even started wrighting your piece. Your whole intention of wrighting this post was to slam the idea of tier 1 hockey. Have you ever been to a tier 1 hockey game, has your kid played in one? I dought it, your typical of most Minnesota hockey koolaid drinkers that Minnesota hockey is nirvana. I've got news for you Minnesota hockey is slowly falling by the way side in their liberal include everybody, 8th place trophy mentality, is developing nothing but mediocre hockey players, while the rest of the country is developing the true superior talent. But we'll continue to go about our merry way thinking that we in Minnesota has the formula to producing the elite player, thinking that hey we had 8 first round players come from Minnesota last year , but with closer inspection, most of those players mostly developed from being at Shattuck, NDTP, Jr. Hockey or some other advanced developement program. Who's the best former Minnesota youth hockey player in the NHL right now (Parise, Mueller) how did they get there.
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new2hockey
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Last edited by new2hockey on Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MoreCowBell
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Re: ?
I don't know is it Langebrunner, who went to Canadian Jr's after his Jr. year in high school?jackstraw wrote:And the Captain of Parise's team is?
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MoreCowBell
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new2hockey
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It's "scary", not "scarey". And, no, I'm not. But, does it matter? I love the game.
And at least when I have something to say, I'm able to do so intelligently. But really, I wasn't trying to be mean. I guess next time I joke around I'll use one of these stupid things.
But seriously, this is a tough topic. I guess it really boils down to what a kid's goals are in life. Does he dream of playing for community pride and a trip to the X in March? Or, does he dream of making millions a year, playing professionally by age 23?
And at least when I have something to say, I'm able to do so intelligently. But really, I wasn't trying to be mean. I guess next time I joke around I'll use one of these stupid things.
But seriously, this is a tough topic. I guess it really boils down to what a kid's goals are in life. Does he dream of playing for community pride and a trip to the X in March? Or, does he dream of making millions a year, playing professionally by age 23?
"Yeah, whatever. I just want to play hockey."
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54fighting
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- Location: The sin bin
Crease- Again, very well thought out post but I think you almost make my point in your arguement. If I hear you right you are saying that a skater who is given no choice but to play with and against kids that a step or two below his level has the same chance to improve as someone who is skating with kids at his level or above. I have to disagree with that statement. While the examples you give are very real, lets look a little further at the numbers.
Lets assume that 10% of the associations in MM hockey do not field any teams at the A level (no idea if this is accurate, my guess is it would be a higher number) Using your theory then 10% of the kids that are going on to play hockey beyond the high school level should come from the high schools that are fed by those associations. You were able to name 3 skaters and I am sure there are a couple more out there. In the same amount of time that those kids came out, a few hundred from A level associations have gone on to play somewhere. In fact, if you put together all of the associations in Minnesota that do not field an A team and counted the number of kids that have gone on to play beyond HS, my guess is that number would be smaller than the number that Edina has put out during the same time.
While there are always going to be exceptions, in my mind there is no doubt that playing with and against kids that are at the same level as you will not only make you the best player you can be, it will also be the most enjoyable experience for the skater. This is where MN hockey is swinging and missing. While I do not think that full blown Tier 1 hockey is the answer in Minnesota, there should be some time spend looking at ways to improve the current system to help out kids that are stuck in associations that are not capable of playing at the highest level yet.
Lets assume that 10% of the associations in MM hockey do not field any teams at the A level (no idea if this is accurate, my guess is it would be a higher number) Using your theory then 10% of the kids that are going on to play hockey beyond the high school level should come from the high schools that are fed by those associations. You were able to name 3 skaters and I am sure there are a couple more out there. In the same amount of time that those kids came out, a few hundred from A level associations have gone on to play somewhere. In fact, if you put together all of the associations in Minnesota that do not field an A team and counted the number of kids that have gone on to play beyond HS, my guess is that number would be smaller than the number that Edina has put out during the same time.
While there are always going to be exceptions, in my mind there is no doubt that playing with and against kids that are at the same level as you will not only make you the best player you can be, it will also be the most enjoyable experience for the skater. This is where MN hockey is swinging and missing. While I do not think that full blown Tier 1 hockey is the answer in Minnesota, there should be some time spend looking at ways to improve the current system to help out kids that are stuck in associations that are not capable of playing at the highest level yet.
Minnesota born NHLers have made it using every avenue available, which makes the Minnesota model a great option. Peter Mueller scored like 70+ goals as a first year pee wee and probably benefitted from the accelerated path. Paul Martin, Matt Niskanen and others played HS hockey and football, enjoyed their ride, and are now very good NHLers. There are many examples from both sides of the argument which tells you that their is no one best system. I believe if you are good enough, they will find you, but you need to stay involved (alberts, bochenski and a few others). That is where the Tier I system comes up short.
However, if you feel it is not all about making the NHL, then that is where the current system works very well for 99% of the kids. That being said, I do not understand the resistance to Tier I hockey. It is a free country and I think people should have a choice. Start out by limiting the teams and see what happens.
However, if you feel it is not all about making the NHL, then that is where the current system works very well for 99% of the kids. That being said, I do not understand the resistance to Tier I hockey. It is a free country and I think people should have a choice. Start out by limiting the teams and see what happens.
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fromthecrease
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:28 pm
54fighting,
You make a very valid point with your statements. I see where you are coming from. All kids want the opportunity to play and excel. We can play numbers probably all day, I look at associations like Spring Lake Park, Park Rapids and Virginia (forgot about Niskanen), I would be willing to bet that those three programs combined wouldn't total the number of kids skating in Edina's program, so it comes down to numbers. You look at Edina sending Budish, Everson, Lee onto college (throw Student from Benildle in there because I think he is from Edina originally) and they are coming from a group of 150 plus kids, where as Backes and Lehrke grew up in a group of maybe 30 players. The percentages are almost equal and sometimes better in the case of a small association. So to me doesn't that mean that hockey is doing quite well in Minnesota?
Tier 1's intent is to provide best of the best, so right away it is stepping in and taking players that have already began to or have developed and these kids are 10 and 12 years old. Minnesota has a process for development that allows all kids to play and develop, while watching and sometimes skating with older/top kids and watching them play. There is value added in being able to watch the older players play, know who they are and aspire to skate like them. It's part of the process and it creates a passion for the game. How often does a 96' Tier 1 team get a chance to watch or share the ice with a 93' Tier 1 team? (Honest question not a shot) Aren't they playing in different states most of the time?
Tier 1 or association hockey? It's a tough question, I can concede some points to the Tier 1 philosophy, as a coach I believe that playing the best competition makes you a better team, because kids learn the only way to beat the better teams is together and everyone has to do there part. Obviously I am in the boat on the association side because I feel they are too many aspects of community based hockey that add to the development of young players.
To me Tier 1 creates a different set of criteria for playing the game and I see some disgruntled or elitest type people taking advantage of the Tier 1 rules in Wisconsin to create what they feel is better hockey in Minnesota, with there intent being on the end goal of a D1 scholarship or the NHL, instead of the opportunity right in front of them. USA hockey developed the rules to expand the game and provide to as many kids as possible, something Minnesota has been doing for years already. USA hockey is trying to establish a base in other states around the country. Minnesota has established that base and evolved, to me its further along.
You make a very valid point with your statements. I see where you are coming from. All kids want the opportunity to play and excel. We can play numbers probably all day, I look at associations like Spring Lake Park, Park Rapids and Virginia (forgot about Niskanen), I would be willing to bet that those three programs combined wouldn't total the number of kids skating in Edina's program, so it comes down to numbers. You look at Edina sending Budish, Everson, Lee onto college (throw Student from Benildle in there because I think he is from Edina originally) and they are coming from a group of 150 plus kids, where as Backes and Lehrke grew up in a group of maybe 30 players. The percentages are almost equal and sometimes better in the case of a small association. So to me doesn't that mean that hockey is doing quite well in Minnesota?
Tier 1's intent is to provide best of the best, so right away it is stepping in and taking players that have already began to or have developed and these kids are 10 and 12 years old. Minnesota has a process for development that allows all kids to play and develop, while watching and sometimes skating with older/top kids and watching them play. There is value added in being able to watch the older players play, know who they are and aspire to skate like them. It's part of the process and it creates a passion for the game. How often does a 96' Tier 1 team get a chance to watch or share the ice with a 93' Tier 1 team? (Honest question not a shot) Aren't they playing in different states most of the time?
Tier 1 or association hockey? It's a tough question, I can concede some points to the Tier 1 philosophy, as a coach I believe that playing the best competition makes you a better team, because kids learn the only way to beat the better teams is together and everyone has to do there part. Obviously I am in the boat on the association side because I feel they are too many aspects of community based hockey that add to the development of young players.
To me Tier 1 creates a different set of criteria for playing the game and I see some disgruntled or elitest type people taking advantage of the Tier 1 rules in Wisconsin to create what they feel is better hockey in Minnesota, with there intent being on the end goal of a D1 scholarship or the NHL, instead of the opportunity right in front of them. USA hockey developed the rules to expand the game and provide to as many kids as possible, something Minnesota has been doing for years already. USA hockey is trying to establish a base in other states around the country. Minnesota has established that base and evolved, to me its further along.
model
The Minnesota model for development is excellent, but the pure #'s in Minnesota account for a large portion of the long term success of the state as far as moving players along.
If you are Minnesotan and haven't been part of true Tier 1 AAA hockey, you are purely speculating as to what you personally have developed as a biased opinion on ONE program that you have been privey to (Fire). You really have no idea what Tier 1 is like in Detroit, Chicago, California, Connecticut, New Jersey, etc... where Tier 1 thrives.
Minnesots is blessed with hockey depth. Period. The fact we have sooooo many players puts us in a unique position and we should all be thankful we have it. The state high school tournament should drive passion in kids to want to don the Hill Murray/Edina/Roseau/whoever jersey someday. It's amazing to hear 18K plus chanting "where's your prom date?" to the Cadets.
With acknoledgement of the successful Minnesota model, don't be so quick to judge AAA as a bad apple. I offer some simple questions?
1. Why are there so many AAA spring teams? (because parents want little jonny to play more with better kids against better teams?)
2. Why do kids leave Minnesota to play juniors in high school? (more games, better competition?)
3. If there was AAA in Minnesota would kids play it? (yes)
4. Why does the elite league exist , why is it exciting and what's the purpose? (it's basically Midget Major hockey)
Here's an obscure example of playing competition...take a current dominant Bantam A team...the core group of players have played together for 6 years or so...they probably have a combined record in that time period of 180 wins and 20 losses. Of the 180 wins, 170 have been by 3 or more goals. So in 6 years they've played probably 30 games max that have tested them as players. Would these kids benefit in a AAA atmosphere?
If you are Minnesotan and haven't been part of true Tier 1 AAA hockey, you are purely speculating as to what you personally have developed as a biased opinion on ONE program that you have been privey to (Fire). You really have no idea what Tier 1 is like in Detroit, Chicago, California, Connecticut, New Jersey, etc... where Tier 1 thrives.
Minnesots is blessed with hockey depth. Period. The fact we have sooooo many players puts us in a unique position and we should all be thankful we have it. The state high school tournament should drive passion in kids to want to don the Hill Murray/Edina/Roseau/whoever jersey someday. It's amazing to hear 18K plus chanting "where's your prom date?" to the Cadets.
With acknoledgement of the successful Minnesota model, don't be so quick to judge AAA as a bad apple. I offer some simple questions?
1. Why are there so many AAA spring teams? (because parents want little jonny to play more with better kids against better teams?)
2. Why do kids leave Minnesota to play juniors in high school? (more games, better competition?)
3. If there was AAA in Minnesota would kids play it? (yes)
4. Why does the elite league exist , why is it exciting and what's the purpose? (it's basically Midget Major hockey)
Here's an obscure example of playing competition...take a current dominant Bantam A team...the core group of players have played together for 6 years or so...they probably have a combined record in that time period of 180 wins and 20 losses. Of the 180 wins, 170 have been by 3 or more goals. So in 6 years they've played probably 30 games max that have tested them as players. Would these kids benefit in a AAA atmosphere?
New England Prep School Hockey Recruiter
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frederick61
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 pm
“Fromthecrease”, the question is “can Tier I (in some form or other) being endorsed by Minnesota Hockey to co-reside with current Minnesota Hockey approach during the winter months. Assuming the age difference between current Minnesota approach and USA hockey can be resolved, can the two systems co-reside?
I think not. Tier 1 exists in other states because there is sparse interest in hockey and because it exists, it makes the interest in those states sparser. Interest is generated by the numbers of people willing to participate. Tier 1, as you pointed out, interests only those parents whose kids participate. In this state, the community sponsors the hockey and provides the financial foundation (build and maintain arenas) that expands the people interested. It is because of associations and Minnesota Hockey governance that allows that interest to be maintained and hopefully grow.
To rationalize that Tier 1 can coexist during the season without impacting that interest is a little like the farmer who gets tired of the goose laying the golden eggs and kills the goose to get them all. Nobody gets anything. Tier 1 in this state will be like the Gobi desert in China, expanding and turning the land before it into desert, only what it will do is drain interest at the community level in the sport.
I think not. Tier 1 exists in other states because there is sparse interest in hockey and because it exists, it makes the interest in those states sparser. Interest is generated by the numbers of people willing to participate. Tier 1, as you pointed out, interests only those parents whose kids participate. In this state, the community sponsors the hockey and provides the financial foundation (build and maintain arenas) that expands the people interested. It is because of associations and Minnesota Hockey governance that allows that interest to be maintained and hopefully grow.
To rationalize that Tier 1 can coexist during the season without impacting that interest is a little like the farmer who gets tired of the goose laying the golden eggs and kills the goose to get them all. Nobody gets anything. Tier 1 in this state will be like the Gobi desert in China, expanding and turning the land before it into desert, only what it will do is drain interest at the community level in the sport.
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hockeyparent11
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:38 am
Much to think about and I will add this.
How does all this tie in with the thread last month about "mega-associations". A group there was advocating that the current A level needs to be further diluted by forcing the strongest associations to have two equal A teams. This will allow the smaller associations to be more competitive by making other teams weaker, not by making smaller associations stronger.
Tier 1 would make the current A level more balanced because the best teams would lose 2-3 players and the others would lose fewer, if any.
At the same time, Tier 1 provides another opportunity for those who want to make a bigger sacrifice of time and money.
Tier 1 seems to provide more opportunities for people to get what they want. Why not do this?
How does all this tie in with the thread last month about "mega-associations". A group there was advocating that the current A level needs to be further diluted by forcing the strongest associations to have two equal A teams. This will allow the smaller associations to be more competitive by making other teams weaker, not by making smaller associations stronger.
Tier 1 would make the current A level more balanced because the best teams would lose 2-3 players and the others would lose fewer, if any.
At the same time, Tier 1 provides another opportunity for those who want to make a bigger sacrifice of time and money.
Tier 1 seems to provide more opportunities for people to get what they want. Why not do this?