Who does the rankings?

mnhockgal · Post by **mnhockgal** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:30 am

Obviously ranking doesnt mean much, but can someone explain how many are involved in the polls? It just seem completely ridiculous sometimes. Here is the AP for "A" from Jan 11.

Class A

1. Blake
2. Crookston
3. Hibbing
4. Alexandria
5. Breck
6. New Prague
7. South St. Paul
8. Farmington
9. Simley
10. Warroad

I am a well documented SSP fan, but thankfully SSP is finally dropping down in poll. Clearly the worst SSP team in a decade and they on their best day are only an above avg A team. How is Farmington below SSP? Farmington whipped SSP and deserves better. Blake at least is #1 - clearly they are just waiting to be crowned - they are very very good. How is Simley ranked??? Very average at best, less than .500 conf record and they are 8th best A team? Come on. New Prague is an interesting team. Took EP to the limit, and showed they are a legit top 3-4 team in class A with their performance in the Kaposia.

boblee · Post by **boblee** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:34 am

Do you really want to complain. Wouldn't you at least like to have some kind of rankings to look at? If you want to complain, make your own top 10.

mnhockgal · Post by **mnhockgal** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:46 am

I dont think wanting a top 10 that actually has some thought put into it is too much to ask for is it? You have teams like NP and Farmington who have earned top 5 spots, in the lower 10 and you have a non top 20 team ranked in the top 10. Its ridiculous a team like Simley is ranked, when an upstart team like Richfield, who has actually beaten some good teams, isnt ranked. Its embarrassing.

But, all you need to do is see the pathetic girls hockey preview in the Strib each year to know how much time is put into it. Clearly this isnt a big issue, I would just like to see more time or effort put into it.

In looking at AA, I think they mostly have it "right", so I just dont get the difference in A thats all. Although I have to say, the Stillwater team I saw in Kaposia, regardless of their record, are a top AA team. Wow do they have some young and deep talent.

boblee · Post by **boblee** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:47 pm

I don't see enough girls teams throughout the state to come up with rankings, but I would like to see what you would think for a A top 5 or 10.

Zamman · Post by **Zamman** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:40 pm

I see a few from the CSC and from the Missota conference. Both teams in Richfield, AHA and Richfield, are playing pretty good hockey. AHA has a lot of talent, speed and three goaltenders all capable of playing well. Richfield is a team that has played together for the last few years. They have solid defense, a few goal scorers and a solid goalie. She has been a started since the 7th grade. I have seen them both improve over the years and are fun to watch.

For the conference games I have seen only a few from the CSC and the games have all been fairly tight, but I did see Richfield beat New Prague and the mighty Kilpatrick was non existant....

AHA on the other hand has dismantled the Missota and all they have. They beat New Prague easily and Farmington also..

Both teams should do well in sections. I hope to make a Richfield playoff.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:01 pm

The Strib & PPress "Metro" rankings are done by the respective paper's prep staff. Sometimes you have to wonder where they come up with their lists. Truly, I don't believe that any Class A teams besides maybe Blake should be even considered for a "Top 10" metro ranking. Blake is the EP of Class A with their talent, depth, and team power.

The LPH rankings are done by a panel of 7-9 voters. I believe they are predominantly current HS coaches. They usually do a pretty good job, but the Class A rankings are tough as it really isn't what AA is and subsequently isn't followed as closely. Class A is more a place for homegrown small-school teams to compete for a championship that they would otherwise never get the experience of due to inability to compete with big school & private school teams with far more depth.

In the case of rationale behind rankings, I believe most good rankers try to have some knowledge of the following:

Record & Strength-of-Schedule (SOS)
Head-to-head results
Common opponent results

There was one point this year where Richfield beat NP & Farmington early in the season. Then, NP had beaten SSP & Farmington as well. As a result, the logical rankings had these teams in the following order:

Richfield
NP
SSP
Farmington

Then, Simley came along and beat Richfield (improving to 10-1 overall & 3-1 in Conf at that time). This, and the other related results, pushed Simley to the top of this list - but only for about 1-day as then Simley lost to SSP the day after the rankings came out. LPH had them in this order:

http://www.letsplayhockey.com/910rankings.pdf

3 New Prague
4 Hibbing/Chisholm
5 Alexandria
6 Simley
7 South St. Paul
8 Breck
9 Warroad
10 Shakopee
11 Roseau
12 Richfield
13 Farmington

While logical, really, truly, head-to-head completion is the best judge of which teams should be ranked ahead of one another. Unfortunately though there isn't always enough head-to-head to figure this all out.

The other thing I've realized is that rankings do mean nothing. And that goes for computer/LPH or anything else for that matter. Fun to debate, etc., but of little value...

And, also, SOS really only matters if you win usually in rankings. Win with strong SOS and that will put you to the very top, lose many close contests against strong SOS and it means nothing (you still lost - but will be battle tested come sections).

This season, we see three Classic Suburban Class A teams that have 12-6 or better overall records largely due to SOS that isn't as strong as the past in Richfield, Simley, & South St Paul. The 4th Class A team in this conference, Mahtomedi, has played a bit stronger SOS and their overall record has suffered as a result of it. While the hockey is down quality wise with the entire conf., it makes for much more parity and any of these teams in the conference (Class A or otherwise) could beat any other on any given night.

Re: Richfield/simley in rankings...
I also think that this (Richfield v Simley round 1) explains the difference to date in the current rankings. That may well rectify itself the 2nd round, but time will tell. In my experience, teams that have more 7th & 8th graders than any other groups on their roster will typically struggle as the season winds down, and as Simley faces the strongest part of its schedule through this stretch too it will be a telling time for what is probably the youngest team in the history of girls HS hockey (13 of 21 V players are in 7th & 8th grade - Half of the regular playing V kids are 7th/8th graders). Due to recent injury/etc. (3rd & 4th leading scorers out) #9A Simley will find itself starting 2 7th & 1 8th graders against #20AA Hill Murray on Tue, and 5 of 8 F playing on Tue are in 7th-9th grade, as well as 2 of the 4 D. Here's the lineup by grade:

F
L C R
8th 12th 7th
9th 11th 7th
12th 8th

D
L R
12th 8th
11th 7th

G
12th
7th

Roman Legion · Post by **Roman Legion** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:13 pm

Rankings are supposed to be a gauge and it is also something to get people talking. As I have said before "A", past Blake is really a toss-up from 2-15 or maybe more. All of these teams are really close and most games will be one goal games. This makes ranking team extremely difficult. Also keep in mind a team that won an early season match-up may not be playing quite as well right now. The opposite is true I think for a team like Farmington. They seem to be playing better now than at the beginning of the season.

I also think that people will have a hard time dropping SSP simply based upon their previous sucess and reputation. That happens in all rankings though, regardless of the sport. I am gald to see that people are talking about the rankings and I am sure that the LPH people are really excited because that means people can't wait to pick up the paper.

mnhockgal · Post by **mnhockgal** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:15 pm

boblee wrote:I don't see enough girls teams throughout the state to come up with rankings, but I would like to see what you would think for a A top 5 or 10.

3 teams I havent seen, Blake,Breck and Crookston. Blake - numerous people have told me are better than SSP/Warroad was last year. They are for real, and legit #1. Breck I also have heard is decent, but the only top team they have played beat them soundly (Blake 4-0). Crookston has some nice wins, including beating a very solid Hibbing team, whom is a lot better than their record indicates (they have played a very tuff schedule). All this research took about 5 mins, and is my entire point. But people look at a Simly 12-6 record, and rank them despite they have one decent win (Richfield), are 3-5 in the worst Classic Sub conf in easily 10-12 years and play no one in the non conf except Farmington.

My rankings:

A

1. Blake
2. Crookston
3. Hibbing
4. Farmington
5. New Prague
6. Alexandria
7. Richfield tie
SSP
9. Warroad
10. Bemidji

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:16 pm

Bemidji is AA

mnhockgal · Post by **mnhockgal** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:22 pm

xk1 wrote:Bemidji is AA

Appears I should have done 6 mins of research, not 5! Thanks for clarifying. I didnt think any school that far north was AA!

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:28 pm

I heard Bauerfield was not present for the Richfield-SSP game, is this true?

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:56 pm

mnhockgal wrote:
boblee wrote:I don't see enough girls teams throughout the state to come up with rankings, but I would like to see what you would think for a A top 5 or 10.
3 teams I havent seen, Blake,Breck and Crookston. Blake - numerous people have told me are better than SSP/Warroad was last year. They are for real, and legit #1. Breck I also have heard is decent, but the only top team they have played beat them soundly (Blake 4-0). Crookston has some nice wins, including beating a very solid Hibbing team, whom is a lot better than their record indicates (they have played a very tuff schedule). All this research took about 5 mins, and is my entire point. But people look at a Simly 12-6 record, and rank them despite they have one decent win (Richfield), are 3-5 in the worst Classic Sub conf in easily 10-12 years and play no one in the non conf except Farmington.

My rankings:

A

1. Blake
2. Crookston
3. Hibbing
4. Farmington
5. New Prague
6. Alexandria
7. Richfield tie
SSP
9. Warroad
10. Bemidji

Agreed, & SOS needs to be looked at. Look at Hibbing's SOS - AMAZING for a Class A team, and so their record needs to be taken in the proper context (they deserve high rank IMHO). Blake is my #1 right now. Wish we could see them play Crookston as I hear Crookston is very good.

Re Section 2A teams:
As said above, Farmington is playing best hockey of season when it counts. My Simley squad saw them Jan 2 and lost 2-1 in OT, SSP saw them Jan 6 and lost 4-2 - they are very solid - esp. Johnson & Ripley, and McNamara does a nice job in nets for them. IMHO NP has something that few other Class A teams have in two AMAZING players @ F in Kilpatrick & Ambroz. Richfield is a team that no one should take lightly.

Right now, if I had to seed my own section, it's tough with Farmington, NP, & Richfield fighting for the top slots. Head-to-head Richfield has beat both NP & Farmington. NP beat Farmington round 1 in conf. play. Simley lost to Farmington 2-1 OT on Jan 2 and beat Richfield round 1 in conf. play to add to the confusion. Outcome of round 2 RF/SIM & FARM/NP conf. play may well determine final seeding for this section, or make it harder to do. Then, I assume you have to look at common opponents, and the games against SSP will come into play as all teams will have played them once + (Richfield (W 2-1, 2nd round?), NP (W 4-2, L 4-3 OT), & Simley (L 3-0, 2nd round?), Farmington 1x only - (W 4-2)...

With all this comparison, I still struggle putting Farmington ahead of NP in a LPH ranking since NP beat Farmington 5-3 head-to-head. Similarly, Simley beat Richfield 2-0 EN head-to-head so I can't do that either easily. SSP also lost 2-1 to Richfield on Fri 12/15 and Richfield lost 2-0 EN to Simley on Tue 12/19 in back-to-back games - BUT SSP beat Simley 3-0 head-to-head on 12-22. So, SSP should go ahead of Simley, but how do you address the rest? And, I always try to remember that "one game doesn't a season make..."

Head-to-head says (make sure you look at shot & penalty counts where available...):

Simley (2-0 EN) over
Richfield
http://www.esportsdesk.com/leagues/hock ... eID=303306

Richfield (3-2) over
NP
http://www.maxpreps.com/FanPages/BoxSco ... e3fc534372

Richfield (3-2) over
Farmington
http://www.maxpreps.com/FanPages/BoxSco ... 077cec48e6

Richfield (2-1) over
SSP
http://www.maxpreps.com/FanPages/BoxSco ... 5a7a528957

***Richfield is the only team to beat everyone on this list (but Simley) so far... could change with round 2 games of course...

NP (5-2 2EN) over
Farmington
http://www.maxpreps.com/FanPages/BoxSco ... 4d1a23967a

NP Split with SSP (4-2 NP, 4-3 OT SSP)
http://www.maxpreps.com/FanPages/BoxSco ... 752ca12b62
http://www.maxpreps.com/FanPages/BoxSco ... 605608ba75

Farmington (2-1 OT) over
Simley
http://www.esportsdesk.com/leagues/hock ... eID=303311

Farmington (4-2 W) over
SSP
http://www.maxpreps.com/FanPages/BoxSco ... 47cab7d956

SSP (3-0) over
Simley
http://www.esportsdesk.com/leagues/hock ... eID=303308

Hmm... Seems that this is a tough group to rank, and probably all pretty equal...

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:06 pm

xk1 wrote:I heard Bauerfield was not present for the Richfield-SSP game, is this true?

I heard this too - although I don't know if this means that she was out entirely or just playing ill, etc.??? I know she still wasn't 100% when we saw them on 12-22 and we also knocked out another top SSP player in D Rita Simones early in our game and still lost 3-0!:

http://www.esportsdesk.com/leagues/hock ... eID=303308

The player who is really impressing me for SSP as of late is Toni Simones... Anne B & Rita S are great too as always, but Toni has really been a force this year IMHO...

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:09 pm

Just to be accurate, the NP-Farmington game was 5-2 with 2 ENs.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:10 pm

xk1 wrote:Just to be accurate, the NP-Farmington game was 5-2 with 2 ENs.

THANKS!!!

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:21 pm

I would move Warroad up to about 5th.

mnhockgal · Post by **mnhockgal** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:30 pm

xk1 wrote:I heard Bauerfield was not present for the Richfield-SSP game, is this true?

This is true enough, she was home from school sick. Please do not take away from Richfields win, as A. they outworked and outdefended SSP and I think win either way and B. who knows if Bauerfeld would have "shown up" anyway, sick or healthy. While she, as well as any D1 player, SHOULD be a difference maker, more often than not she isnt. Easily one of the most overrated players in the last 5 years.

Richfields G is outstanding and while not a lot of great F's, they work hard and have a shot to beat SSP again. Richfield HM and SSP are the top 3 in the conf and the rest of the teams are poor to terrible. Its sad how bad this conf has become. You used to have perennial top 5 AA teams SSP and NSP and depending on the year HM was good to very good, and Sibley once in a while was decent. Now you have 3 avg to good class A teams and then not much else.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:54 pm

mnhockgal wrote:Richfields G is outstanding and while not a lot of great F's, they work hard and have a shot to beat SSP again. Richfield HM and SSP are the top 3 in the conf and the rest of the teams are poor to terrible. Its sad how bad this conf has become. You used to have perennial top 5 AA teams SSP and NSP and depending on the year HM was good to very good, and Sibley once in a while was decent. Now you have 3 avg to good class A teams and then not much else.

Richards is simply amazing for Richfield. She stopped 35 of 36 she saw against Simley and 27 of 28 against SSP in consecutive games. She's one of the very best Jr Goalie in the State IMHO.

I think Henry Sibley will likely come on strong as the year wraps up now that they finally have returned all their players as of the game v Simley on Friday (1/12). They had been playing w/o some of their top players for quite some time (month +?) since nearly the last time they played Simley (12/8.)...

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:37 pm

Roman Legion wrote:Rankings are supposed to be a gauge and it is also something to get people talking. As I have said before "A", past Blake is really a toss-up from 2-15 or maybe more. All of these teams are really close and most games will be one goal games. This makes ranking team extremely difficult. Also keep in mind a team that won an early season match-up may not be playing quite as well right now. The opposite is true I think for a team like Farmington. They seem to be playing better now than at the beginning of the season.

I also think that people will have a hard time dropping SSP simply based upon their previous sucess and reputation. That happens in all rankings though, regardless of the sport. I am gald to see that people are talking about the rankings and I am sure that the LPH people are really excited because that means people can't wait to pick up the paper.

I missed this post earlier and I agree 100%. I also think that we each have our personal biases (myself included) relative to our personal affiliations, long-term percetptions relative to certain teams/programs, etc., etc.

mnhockgal · Post by **mnhockgal** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:53 am

xk1 wrote:I would move Warroad up to about 5th.

But, as usual, they have played virtually no one, so how do they warrant moving up??? How good are they without Roberts now? They were a very good team last year with her, but am wondering how good they are taking her out of the lineup? Of course, they have good coaching and are always solid. They worked very hard in title game and deserved a better fate.

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:06 am

they have played virtually no one

This is true but is also true of Breck and others. Their only loss in A was against Crookston the first game o fthe year 4-3.

I agree with whoever said Blake was 1 and there is a 10 way tie for second. I have seen Warroad play as well as those I would rank below them and it's just my opinion they are around 5 if you have to pick a number.

mnhockgal · Post by **mnhockgal** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:34 am

xk1 wrote:
they have played virtually no one
This is true but is also true of Breck and others. Their only loss in A was against Crookston the first game o fthe year 4-3.

I agree with whoever said Blake was 1 and there is a 10 way tie for second. I have seen Warroad play as well as those I would rank below them and it's just my opinion they are around 5 if you have to pick a number.

Your right on Breck, their schedule is ridiculous. This is why I pointed out Simley also - nice record, til you realize they play no one, and thus arent deserving of a ranking. Even most of us diehards didnt like SSP schedule this year, but when you year in and year out play the toughest schedule in the state, and then your team falls as far as they have, you have to adjust the schedule accordingly to more of a class A sched.

But many thought we could have kept 1-2 more tough ones, and a couple less cupcakes. But, you contrast their schedule to a Breck or a Simley, and its no comparison. Simley I think has played Farmington, and then basically no one of any relevence in non conf. SSP scheduled Totino (who has been ranked past few years), Farm, New Prague and then of course while Simley is in the powerhouse Red Wing tourney SSP is playing 2 top teams in the Kaposia (their 1st game was against NSP for a conf game) in New Prague again, and Hibbing. Had they beat NSP, they would have played Roseville.

I am just saying, the least the people involved could do is look at the SOS of these teams and do 5-10 mins of homework. But that said, as many have pointed out, the rankings dont mean much anyway!

Hey XK, is Crookston as good as their record indicates they are? What section are they in?

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:43 am

I wish I knew more about Crookston (I'm a metro guy) , all you hear is what their homers say, but they seem to be for real, they tied Bemidji and split with Hibbing and GRG and beat North Metro as well.

mnhockgal · Post by **mnhockgal** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:23 am

Sure would seem like they are legit!

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:41 am

mnhockgal wrote:
xk1 wrote:
they have played virtually no one
This is true but is also true of Breck and others. Their only loss in A was against Crookston the first game o fthe year 4-3.

I agree with whoever said Blake was 1 and there is a 10 way tie for second. I have seen Warroad play as well as those I would rank below them and it's just my opinion they are around 5 if you have to pick a number.
Your right on Breck, their schedule is ridiculous. This is why I pointed out Simley also - nice record, til you realize they play no one, and thus arent deserving of a ranking. Even most of us diehards didnt like SSP schedule this year, but when you year in and year out play the toughest schedule in the state, and then your team falls as far as they have, you have to adjust the schedule accordingly to more of a class A sched.

But many thought we could have kept 1-2 more tough ones, and a couple less cupcakes. But, you contrast their schedule to a Breck or a Simley, and its no comparison. Simley I think has played Farmington, and then basically no one of any relevence in non conf. SSP scheduled Totino (who has been ranked past few years), Farm, New Prague and then of course while Simley is in the powerhouse Red Wing tourney SSP is playing 2 top teams in the Kaposia (their 1st game was against NSP for a conf game) in New Prague again, and Hibbing. Had they beat NSP, they would have played Roseville.

I am just saying, the least the people involved could do is look at the SOS of these teams and do 5-10 mins of homework. But that said, as many have pointed out, the rankings dont mean much anyway!

Hey XK, is Crookston as good as their record indicates they are? What section are they in?

All of this is so true with a couple key exceptions I believe...

Teams should adjust their schedule when they see a period that may need such adjustment. While some Class A teams in the area have built from outside, Simley and most others have to build from within. Simley finally adjusted to a Class A schedule this year. This was after a few years of playing a top 5 Class A schedule that rivaled many of the top AA teams in the state, including their transfer-loaded neighbor SSP.

IMHO When ranking Class A teams there is one thing that is important to keep in mind. That is head-to-head competition and common opponents are your best guide as often every game doesn't help with ranking as many teams aren't top ranked teams on Class A team schedules.

This being said, any fool can look at which teams of value a Class A team did play and figure out a semi-logical ranking instead of waiving their hands and saying that overall record and SOS SHOULD play a role in ranking more than head-to-head play. Most would agree that "it's not about who you play, but who you beat" and this is so true in Class A rankings.

A year ago, there was a Class A team ranked with a 6-19 record as a result of playing an amazing SOS and only beating a few other ranked Class A teams (the weakest part of their schedule). Now, we have the opposite for that team, a far weaker SOS but many wins - again though, only with key wins coming against a select few ranked Class A teams.

I seem to recall one poster on here a year ago that said all that mattered was wins vs other top teams, and not just playing them or a teams SOS...

Now, that poster has a differnt stance! For this reason, and even the Section 2 seeding contained in earlier posts, anyone that wants to "do 5-10 mins of homework" should be able to come to a logical conclusion about Class A rankings (if they don't change their tune year-to-year

). And, it's probably in the end going to come down to that as someone else has said "Blake was 1 and there is a 10 way tie for second."

What we really need is to get loaded OE & Private teams out of A and into AA where they belong.