Elite II - Section 4A/AA

HitTheCrossBar · Post by **HitTheCrossBar** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:09 am

The Elite II - Section 4A/AA team is managed by the Blaine HS coach. Tryouts were judged by Blaine HS hockey team staff. Guess what, there are a lot of Blaine kids on the team. Would you expect anything different? It's human nature to favor your own. All the off season leagues fulfill a need that is not met by the regular high school season. If that weren't true, those leagues wouldn't be flourishing. I think the the Elite and Elite II leagues are wonderful concepts, and I totally support it. If anything, I think it should be expanded to give as many opportunities to as many kids as possible; without diluting the talent. As I understand it, the goal of the Elite II league is to develop the top young players; while Elite I picks older kids. There is overlap in age strictly due to talent (or development stage), and that's fine. But for the Elite II league to be legitimate, and truly represent the cream of the crop available (some elite kids play HS fall sports and don't want to play hockey), they have to avoid blatant conflicts of interest. As of today, it is an elite league in the making. In section 4, they can't claim that they will play the best kids available, because they won't. This year, some Blaine players took the place of better kids. If this doesn't get corrected, it may ultimately be the league demise. You don't want to have to say: "Yeah, my kid was on the Elite II league; and he was one that truly belonged there". The word gets around. People may decide to sign up to other less expensive leagues, and wait for their shot at the Elite I league.

kenny06 · Post by **kenny06** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 pm

Just a questoin. doesn't Mn high school league prohibit the hs hockey coaches to work with the hockey players from their school before Novermber? i know they can not be involved in the captain practices, and i do not see this as any difference. so how can a HS coach coach one of these teams? (with their own players on it), does MSHL monitor these things? if the HS coaches can coach these teams, is this being seen as away around the MSHL rules? metro west and now 4a/aaa.

HitTheCrossBar · Post by **HitTheCrossBar** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:33 pm

Kenny, I pasted below what I found on the Minnesota High School Hockey League website. You can see that most rules apply only during the school year. Since the tryouts were before the start of the school year, I guess it was legal (barely)!!!!! My understanding is that the Blaine coaching staff selected the roster, will manage the team during the season; but will not coach the team. There's nothing specific in the rules about managing a team. Has the spirit of the rule been broken? You be the judge. One thing for sure is that Bill Moore did not intend for Elite II to be a springboard for any one HS team. There are so many good hockey people in Minnesota, there is no need to hire people with a vested interest in the selection process. 2005-06 Athletic Camp and Clinic - Questions and Answers Non-School Leagues, Camps and Clinics: Q. What involvement can I have as a member of the high school coaching staff in non-school leagues, camps and/or clinics during the school year? During the summer? A. During the school year prior to and following the high school sport season: May Do: Provide camp and clinic and non-school league information to athletes. Conduct pre/post-season meeting(s) with team in order to provide information regarding the high school season, and/or to provide leadership training programs etc. provided that there is no coaching of the sport, or strategies of the sport, at the meetings. May conduct an organizational meeting for summer play provided that the coach has secured a summer waiver from the school’s Athletic Director in advance of the meeting. May Not Do: During the school year, prior to and following the sports season, a coach may not influence or direct a student who has been a member of your high school team to participate in a league, attend a camp or clinic, require the student to workout or participate in open gyms, etc. as a requirement for team membership; or placing athletes on a roster, developing or organizing a team roster, drafting players for a team, selecting, securing, or otherwise influencing the placement of athletes on a team for leagues, tournaments, camps, or clinics. Issue school uniforms or equipment for student use in non-school leagues, tournaments, camps, or clinics. Schools may lease equipment to non-school camps, clinics and/or leagues. A coach may not provide training, instruction, private or group lessons, or coaching in their sport to students who have been a member of the high school team, B-squad, JV, or Varsity. Provide money from school funds or booster funds to students to attend camps or clinics, or to participate in a league or tournament. Organize, supervise, direct, or otherwise participate in the organization of captain’s practice. During the summer: May Do: Provide camp and non-school team information to athletes if approved for a summer waiver and authorized by your athletic director to do so. Provide coaching in non-school leagues, camps or clinics under the provisions of the summer waiver. Organize summer leagues, camps, clinics or other instructional opportunities for athletes once approved for the summer waiver. May Not Do: May not influence or direct a student to participate in non-school activities, including open gym, workouts, captain’s practice or strength and development training programs as a requirement for team membership. Issue school uniforms or equipment. Provide money from school funds or booster funds to students to attend camps or clinics or to participate in a league or tournament.

kenny06 · Post by **kenny06** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:02 am

thanks CrossBar. but in reading this i find that in: "May Not Do: .....or placing athletes on a roster, developing or organizing a team roster, drafting players for a team, selecting, securing, or otherwise influencing the placement of athletes on a team for leagues, tournaments, camps, or clinics. A coach may not provide training, instruction, private or group lessons, or coaching in their sport to students who have been a member of the high school team, B-squad, JV, or Varsity." if the coaches are on the selection committee, then aren't they placing athletes on a roster? Coaching practices, aren't they providing training? looks to me like they are breaking the rules. Tier I stays away from this, why is Tier II doing this? why not just have the HS coach form their own team with their own players and just form another team like Metro West,or get 2 HS coaches together and form a team together. Rules? It would be nice to hear from someone on the MSHL board explain why HS coaches can be this involved.

Eddie Shore · Post by **Eddie Shore** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:49 am

I'm goinig to guess that Elite II probably went the same route as Elite I and received Olympic Development status, which would allow assistant HS coaches to be on the ice with these players (again, that's just a guess). In the past, Elite I has had assistant HS coaches (such as Russo, Jr. and Sarner) involved on their coaching staffs. One poster made the comment that there are a lot of good hockey people in Minnesota that could coach these teams instead of active HS coaches (sorry, I'm paraphrasing there as I don't have the quote handy). While that may be true, it's tough to find qualified coaches that want to spend weekend after weekend on the road - especially for the tiny stipend they would recieve for coaching in Elite II. Many top youth coaches who would do a great job cannot commit due to their seasons starting prior to the completion of the fall leagues. I'm certainly not an apologist for the Elite II league, but I applaud the organizers for giving more kids a spot to play. For those of you who are not happy about it, you've basically got three options: 1. Give Bill Moore a call and get involved. 2. Get off your butts and start another league. 3. Continue to sit at your computer and bitch and complain while under the relative safety of an anonymous screen name.

kenny06 · Post by **kenny06** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:02 am

edidie, dont get me wrong. i think it is great that more kids can get out and play. but there are fall leagues out there where they could play. there are AAA teams to play on. but if there are rules, either in the selection process or MSHL, and if they are not being followed, then that is the question. reading all of the Elite II comments ,most people are having problems with the selections, or the number of kids on rosters. these are just questions people have about the league and i do not think it is unreasonable to ask them. we are not knocking the league, nor should people have to defend it.

Kodiak · Post by **Kodiak** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:00 pm

There's a waiver form that coaches can fill out and submit to the MSHSL granting them permission to coach some of their players outside of the regular season. This goes for all sports, so if a soccer coach will be working with his/her players in the spring, he/she must get approval from the MSHSL. I don't know what the form is called, but I was given one for baseball this spring, but didn't need to fill it out because any player I would have coached over the summer had already graduated.

puckhead89 · Post by **puckhead89** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:32 pm

Eddie Shore you are absolutely correct. I strongly urge any of one us on this board, who either have concerns about what they have read or who have experienced this fiasco first hand, to contact the commissioner Bill Moore. This league needs to garner respect and the only way it can begin is if the commissioner is made aware, by as many phone calls, correspondence or emails as possible. Make your concerns and position known...it is the only way we can ask or expect things to improve with this league. Oh, and Eddie, I don't think everyone who responds on this ezboard is necessarily hiding behind a screen name. This board, for a change, is doing what it actually should be doing.... the sharing of information so that we can all engage in discussion on development and improvement in all areas of hockey and to hope that good will come of it all.

Eddie Shore · Post by **Eddie Shore** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:09 pm

Puckhead89 - Maybe I've just been around the game too long, but it seems to me that those who complain the loudest typically are the same people that do not have the courage to take their complaints to someone with the power to effect change. They would prefer to lurk in the shadows and create as much controversy as possible behind the scenes. If these threads about the various fall leagues actually serve a purpose and make the game better for our kids around the state, great. That's what should happen. However, the majority of the time these threads simply become post after post with tales of woe. Somehow everyone is always getting screwed. I'm glad you agree that if someone has a problem with Elite II they should take it to Bill Moore. If someone has a problem with Elite I they should take it to John Russo. They can even give their own HS coach a call to see if he could place a call or two to find out what is going on. Of course, if more HS coaches would get involved with the selection process for these leauges or the Advanced program, etc. it would make it a lot harder for people to complain. I didn't watch any or the tryouts for either league this year - I went golfing instead. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> I can't say if things were on the up and up. I'd like to think they were, but I've seen stranger things in my day. If they weren't - pick up the phone and make someone aware of it.

Sioux Fan · Post by **Sioux Fan** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:14 pm

Eddie he would have to answer his phone or return a call. Hockey Nut in So. MN

Eddie Shore · Post by **Eddie Shore** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:24 pm

<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> I can't even think of a good reply to that one John (although I know you understand the point I was trying to make). Good luck with your team this fall!

HitTheCrossBar · Post by **HitTheCrossBar** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:29 pm

Eddie, in this entire thread, I've haven't read anything about knocking down the league. To the contrary, I, for one, said that it is a great concept and that it should be expanded. What is in question is the selection process. Personally, once the team is selected, I don't care who coaches the team. Any way you look at it, having a coach putting his players on the roster while better players are available, is wrong. I really like your comment that if more coaches would get involved, there would be less problem. Actually, I think that would be a way to completely fix the problem. If every single HS coach in a given section would be invited to judge the tryouts, and to select the roster; there could not be any legitimate complaint. That would even be better than independant judges. I couldn't agree more with you when you say to call Bill Moore. I did already, and I hope everybody that feels the same way I do, call him too. What you call anonymous bitching; I call using the power of the press to get things done. Look, you just had a great idea. PuckHead had some good comments too. Over 200 people have read this thread already; maybe Bill Moore did too. My goal is to get this thing fixed by any means at my disposal. By the way Eddie, are you still wearing that big moustache of yours?

elite2hockeycommissioner · Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:57 pm

In defending the Section 4A/4AA tryout process, there were seven high school coaches there representing 5 different schools - 4 of which are head coaches and one is an assist now, but was the head coach at Armstrong (35 years). The evaluation staff had coaches that were at the following schools last year: Blaine, Maple Grove, Orono, Bloomington Jefferson, and Bethel College. I don't know how much more diversity there could be. In reading other ostings, I saw the advice to "call Bill Moore". I would appreciate a phone call if you have a problem with our process or any part of ELITE II. We have not even started our second year of existence. I welcome opportunities to make the league better. Please feel free to give me a call. Bill Moore Elite II Commissioner (651) 442-7306

HitTheCrossBar · Post by **HitTheCrossBar** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:49 pm

Bill, would you post the 4A/AA roster, with players name, high school name and grade?

HitTheCrossBar · Post by **HitTheCrossBar** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:15 am

Bill, I believe that you have the best intentions in the world. What you're doing to give opportunities to Minnesota kids is commendable. I wish you would have posted the roster, so readers would not have to take my word for it. There are six kids from Blaine on the team, twice as many as any other school. That's 25% of the roster. I've seen these kids play for years now, and let me tell you that some of them are fine players and no doubt belong. Despite your efforts to diversify the judging crew, it's easy to see how the final roster is slanted toward Blaine. Two of the seven judges were from Blaine. The Blaine High School assistant coach had final say on the roster. If he wanted a certain player on the team, that was that. I know so because he told me. So only once he got his kids in, did it become fair game. And I don't blame him for doing it. If I would have been in his position, I would have done the same. I'm sure the Maple Grove coach was pushing hard for his kids too. I wouldn't have much respect for him if he didn't do so. You can see what is my problem with the judging setup. In that context, there weren't anybody to vouch for other school kids. Anybody can pick the top 5 kids; after that it gets murky in a hurry. I will argue that, in two sessions, for somebody that has never seen a group of kids play for an extended period of time, it is impossible to do better than pick the top 10. I won't even get into how to select a team depending on the the kind of game you want to play, because that would have an impact too. The point I'm trying to make is that the most knowledgeable person about a kid skills, personality and ability to help win games, is his coach (I'm leaving the parents out of it). If all coaches with kids trying out were invited to judge, I'm convinced you'd end up with a better team overall. That's why I'm suggesting that you change your tryout process next year, and invite all section HS coaches to the tryouts. If they don't want to participate, then tough luck. You could also give final say on the roster to a panel of independent judges from outside the section. They would hear arguments from all sides and make the final decision. It sounds like the Elite I selection process is pretty good too. But that's quite involved, it takes a lot of time and energy all year round from as many as 50 scouts. I wouldn't say that you need to follow that. I don't think there will ever be a perfect process. The past is littered with players that got picked and didn't performed, or players that didn't get picked and ended up making it. There are so many factors that come into play. The bottom line is all you can expect is a fair and transparent process. I did try to call you to tell you all this, but I never heard back from you. You must be busy getting the league going. When things slow down, I sure would like to talk to you.

HockeyFan91 · Post by **HockeyFan91** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:21 am

The Elite II website is up and the rosters are available. Looks like Crossbar had a point. With judges from Blaine, Maple Grove and Armstrong; the roster ended up with 6 players from Blaine, 6 from Maple Grove and 3 from Armstrong. The numbers speak for themselves.

Eddie Shore · Post by **Eddie Shore** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:22 am

(This message was left blank) Edited by: <A HREF=http://p074.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... mnhs>Eddie Shore</A> at: 9/19/05 2:53 pm

Sioux Fan · Post by **Sioux Fan** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 11:42 pm

Yes, I am from Austin 0 and my boys played at Mayo 2. My best friend is the coach at Owatonna and they have 0 this year. I just go with what I think are the best that come out. I think we have a good group and if you watched us play 5 of our best guys were not available today. Amundson, Dunfee, Gorman, Steege, Knutson, Hoksch and Yetzer were all at JM's Homecoming this weekend. We are going to be very tough to beat when we get our best 20 playing their best. Hockey Nut in So. MN

HitTheCrossBar · Post by **HitTheCrossBar** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:14 pm

Eddie, you're bringing up a lot of different things. I will eventually comment on all of them. It would be quite long to do it all in one post. Later, I may start other threads to discuss them. This time, I will address the issue that matters the most to me; the selection process. Think about this. The selection crew was composed of 4 coaches from section 4AA: 2 Blaine, 1 Maple Grove, 1 Armstrong; and three from outside the section. Darin Thompson, Blaine assistant coach, had final say on the roster. Now, let's switch things around around a little bit. Let's keep the same three judges from outside the section, but replace the 4AA coaches by 2 from Andover, 1 from Park Center and 1 from Champlin Park. And let's give veto rights to Andover. What does that do to the roster? If only one kid from Andover gets favored over another, that's one too many. To answer your question, I think that inviting all coaches concerned to participate to tryouts, and give veto rights to someone outside the section; would bring more balance to the selection, project a sense of fairness and openness; deflect post tryouts criticism, and ultimately bring legitimacy to the league. I'm not saying it's the only way to do it. But what they're doing now is not good enough. I did talk to my coach. He didn't get invited to this tryout. Was he the only one not invited? I don't know.

puckhead89 · Post by **puckhead89** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:32 pm

Eddie, I have to agree with you on one point....much of the time the high school coaches don't show up to be involved in the evaluating process even when asked. Just last spring there was scrambling at some of the select tryouts because high school coaches, who were asked to evaluate, simply didn't show up. So, like you, I am not sure I am for high school coaches' exclusive involvement in the evaluating, selecting and coaching of the elite or advanced 15, 16 and 17's.....I don't know the answer for what would make a better process....many of us don't....but I do believe the whole process would be better served if there were a checks and balance system (or at least more prominent than there is now)...and I don't think that is achieved when making every aspect of the process a decision of a high school coach. Just doesn't make sense to me. Now, Eddie, on another matter in your recent post....please tell me I am misreading your post when you state " And if you can't make an Elite II team...well you get the picture." This reads condescendingly to me.....did you mean to downgrade the work of Elite II players and even more so the efforts of those who tried out for Elite II or even those who wanted to but weren't asked? I am surprised by you if that is what you meant. But perhaps you meant it as a sarcastic remark for those overbearing parents? I truly hope that is where your comment was aimed, but if not: I promised myself I wouldn't chat on a thread again about selection processes, etc. but you can't make a comment like that, even against the parents, and then question why people get in an uproar over the selection process. To imply that Elite II is something "less than" is a huge cut to many players. Like it or not, there ARE players who try out and deserve to be on the team and don't make it, Elite I or II, and their absence presents a valid and qualified question "why?". There ARE players who should be evaluated for some of these teams but are never invited to try out. There ARE players on the team who are there for reasons other than their work ethic, talent or skill. And I believe that to be true at every level of athletics, unfortunately.

Eddie Shore · Post by **Eddie Shore** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:51 pm

Puckhead - the comment was meant as sarcasm but in re-reading my post it may not read that way. Like I stated in my post, I hadn't had my morning coffee yet. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/sick.gif ALT=":x"> I give kudos to all the kids who try out for these teams - whether they make it or not (and there are some fine hockey players who didn't make it). I was just trying to give a little hell to some of the folks out there who think that it's political every time their kid doesn't make a team. I also wasn't going to comment on this thread again, but after reading your post questioning my comments I had to to clarify my remarks. Are there kids who end up on teams because of reasons outside of their skill level, etc. Of course there are. It would be foolish to suggest otherwise. I will, however, stick by stance that the majority of teams (whether Elite I or II, Advanced 15, 16 or 17, Great 8, etc.) are selected by people who put in time and effort and do the best job they can in as fair a manner as possible. Sorry for being a bit of a jackass in my previous post. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o"> I'm going to delete the previous post because it is not representative of how I have tried to conduct myself on this board.

puckhead89 · Post by **puckhead89** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:16 pm

Eddie, I knew you were a good guy. And I agree with you, most of the people involved in these selection processes do the best that they can with the amount of time and information that they have. We can offer constructive critcism from both sides of the fence: those that evaluate and those that view the process from the outside in, whether an athlete, coach or parent (and preferably in that order..<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> )

hcky0809 · Post by **hcky0809** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:57 am

I have read this thread many times over and have tried to refrain from commenting as it seems there is always room for comment, "constructive" criticism, etc. regarding selection processes when it comes to these types of teams. Having not been at the Section 4 try-outs I don't feel I'm in a position to comment since I didn't see how the try-outs were conducted and/or what the talent level was. However, I can say that we played the Section 4 team this past weekend and they kicked our &*#! In looking at the program roster, I did notice the number of players from Blaine and Maple Grove, and I also noticed how young this team was. I did not notice any players that stood out like they did not belong there by any means. Were there better players that were at the try-outs that did not make the team, I do not know. I can only say that the players that were on this team certainly seemed more than qualified to be there. I would agree with a prior post, that it makes the most sense to have coaches from the respective sections/districts not be involved in evaluating. However, it also seems only right that if these are the people that are stepping up and willing to give their time to this type of thing, that they also have a say in the selection of the team. In a perfect world, I would suggest that the selection process for this type of team, as well as District Selects NOT have the coaching staff involved, but rather have the coaches evaluate for the sections/districts other than their own - where they do not know the players and you will eliminate at least one of the criticisms that a coach is just looking out for his own best interests. The Elite II is another great opportunity for our players and yes there will always be those that get overlooked, etc., but I would like to say thank you to those involved with the program and recognize that it is only in its second year and will continue to only get better.

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