Tenoverpar wrote:Hockey is a year-round sport..pretty much everywhere BUT Minnesota.
The powers that be have handcuffed the players in the system for the good of the system. There's a reason players with last names like Nanne, Guentzel, Lucia did not play their Senior year in Minnesota high school hockey...
But can or would the MN High School league change anything?
Maybe this has been beaten to death like a rented mule, but really.....would the Minnesota State High School League that governs all High School Sports/Athletics change just 1 sport to satisfy the people in that sport? Like add 10/15/20 games..? OR will we continue to see our players leaving at record numbers again next year and the year after..?
SuperStar wrote:Maybe this has been beaten to death like a rented mule, but really.....would the Minnesota State High School League that governs all High School Sports/Athletics change just 1 sport to satisfy the people in that sport?
That would require a wholesale change in their philosophy, part of which is to give students an opportunity to participate in more than one sport (one in each of three distinct seasons). Not as important with big schools in the metro area, but it would disproportionately hurt smaller outstate schools that rely on multi-sport athletes.
MN High School league can only make so many changes to satisfy those opting for more. The MN High School league has 3 seasons of sports they have to manage (Fall, Winter, Spring) Overlapping seasons is tough for all involved. Only way "MN hockey" would change is if there were other options here in MN, however that would hurt MN High School hockey. and probably other sports as well, since the season would be longer, and have more demands then high school hockey.
If the Goal of the MNSHL is to produce as many Elite players as possible then YES they need to change their structure. I am guessing the goal of the MNSHL is to provide a local, competitive enviroment for student athletes to participate in sports.
The kids that are looking for other opportunities seem to find them. There are other options, training resources kids can take advantage of if they so desire.
I have enjoyed MNSHL hockey for many many years. I would not like to see the system completely overhauled. I can handle missing a few players rather then the whole league.
I agree completly. Think of it this way, for example - if MN Hockey ran with the Elite League and ran it like other States AAA hockey. maybe 6 - 8 Teams State wide - taking as many Elite of the Elite players that they could, would they attract a fan base?? (besides Parents!!) When you go to a MN high school game most games have the community at the game, youth players, students, ie. I have only been to 2 Elite Games in the past 2 years and i do not think there were 50 people in the stands ?
Tenoverpar wrote:Hockey is a year-round sport..pretty much everywhere BUT Minnesota.
The powers that be have handcuffed the players in the system for the good of the system. There's a reason players with last names like Nanne, Guentzel, Lucia did not play their Senior year in Minnesota high school hockey...
But can or would the MN High School league change anything?
Maybe this has been beaten to death like a rented mule, but really.....would the Minnesota State High School League that governs all High School Sports/Athletics change just 1 sport to satisfy the people in that sport? Like add 10/15/20 games..? OR will we continue to see our players leaving at record numbers again next year and the year after..?
No, they wouldn't. It will never happen. Besides, your argument assumes that players leave because of not enough games. I really doubt that. I'm sure most of them leave to play against better competition in Juniors, thus in theory making them better, to prepare for the next level. Either way, they can play Juniors after the High School season and get those extra 10/15/20 games anyway. So its not like they have to leave High School for the whole year if they want more games.
If you're looking for change, the MSHSL is probably not the place to look. They could perhaps add a few more games or a few more minutes to periods, as they've done in the past, but without a massive change in philosophy, it won't be all that different.
That said, I'll repeat an argument I just made over on the Youth Forum a couple of days ago:
It's disingenuous to say that MN HS players who aspire to post-HS hockey "only" play 25 games a year. They play 25 games over a 3-month stretch from late November to mid-February. 25 games over 3 months is comparable to what players would play in a junior league over that time period. It's actually more games than an NCAA team would play over that time period.
The problem, of course, is that the season is so short. The solution is to create some sort of development league for the fall and spring months. We have that in fall, with the Elite League (or even Elite D, or some of the private alternatives like the Blades). Add in those games, and you're up around 50 for the season. There is no spring league right now, but players who are good enough often play in the USHL, and get in another 5-10 games, maybe more if their team gets bounced early on in sections.
Add all of that up, and you have a 60-game winter season, which is almost exactly what you'd get in a junior league. It just takes a very different form.
Obviously, it's not an exact equivalent. Some of the HS season games are not very competitive. Judging by this forum, there are some real complaints about the Elite League, and how it is run. (I don't follow it closely, though I will stop by a few of the games in Duluth this weekend.) There is a lack of a good spring option for players who can't make a USHL roster, though that seems like something that could be fixed pretty easily.
If it's run correctly, there's no reason a combined Elite League/HS season can't be in the same ballpark as a good junior league. If it's run correctly.
The driving point for the top 1% of players that leave is competition and being on a team with other top 1% players.
The MNHSL and the community based youth model as a whole do exactly what they're supposed to and are what makes Minnesota the State of Hockey.
With that said we who love hockey should applaud and root for the kid that leaves and has the chance to make it....a chance that someone saw something in his game that makes them believe he can play.
The reality is those 30 kids that leave high school for perceived greeener pastures is still such a tiny tiny margin of players that it won't affect the overall institution..it won't affect The Shield of Minnesota hockey/MNHSL...
it's only US on this board that will say "what if"..."what if"..
Tenoverpar wrote:With that said we who love hockey should applaud and root for the kid that leaves and has the chance to make it....a chance that someone saw something in his game that makes them believe he can play.
I think with time many of my fellow old farts have accepted that kids are going to leave and when they do wish them the best. While we'd like to see the status quo remain, it hasn't and won't come back. Would I have loved to see Tonka last year with Lettieri? Of course, but I would never begrudge him the opportunity to make hockey a career and am resigned to that being an increasing decision. The good news is that MN HS hockey is not devoid of talent and last years state tourney was entertaining regardless. Plenty of quality talent to watch on any given night.
Tenoverpar wrote:Hockey is a year-round sport..pretty much everywhere BUT Minnesota.
The powers that be have handcuffed the players in the system for the good of the system. There's a reason players with last names like Nanne, Guentzel, Lucia did not play their Senior year in Minnesota high school hockey...
But can or would the MN High School league change anything?
Maybe this has been beaten to death like a rented mule, but really.....would the Minnesota State High School League that governs all High School Sports/Athletics change just 1 sport to satisfy the people in that sport? Like add 10/15/20 games..? OR will we continue to see our players leaving at record numbers again next year and the year after..?
No, they wouldn't. It will never happen. Besides, your argument assumes that players leave because of not enough games. I really doubt that. I'm sure most of them leave to play against better competition in Juniors, thus in theory making them better, to prepare for the next level. Either way, they can play Juniors after the High School season and get those extra 10/15/20 games anyway. So its not like they have to leave High School for the whole year if they want more games.
I think that the answer you are looking for is Both. They leave for more games without a doubt. Look at who is leaving and where they are going. The big names are not leaving from some smaller program to go player for a team that plays the same number of games against higher talent alone. They are leaving because when they go to Juniors they get both more games and a higher level of talent. The biggest group in this group is the Goaltenders. We will not be seeing as many high end goalies coming from MN as we used to. As a goalie they need shots and game time. The MN High School season does not make for decent goalie development. This is where the biggest talent drain is going to be and since it takes years to take a kid with the right set of intangibles and train him to become a good goalie their loss is going to be felt. The number of kids who are doing the whole before and after deal is going to drop way off. Junior coaches are going to start to tell these kids that they have a number of kids who want to play there so if you want to come play for us you have to go all the way. Those kids will just to keep up with their completion.
Kids would leave even if the season was 100 games and year round. When you're talking about the top players leaving for "more games" I truly think it is a case of them not benefitting from playing another year of high school. Many of those top players would waste a year of development playing against high school competition. Add in the fact that programs in Junior A and Ann Arbor have schedules tailored to get kids on the ice, in the weightroom, and the classroom.
Blake Wheeler is a perfect example. Big Frame, puts up 100 points as a junior, Wins a title. Players in the position really have no benefit of sticking around for their senior season when they're already so much further developed than the competition.
TheSiouxSuck wrote:Kids would leave even if the season was 100 games and year round. When you're talking about the top players leaving for "more games" I truly think it is a case of them not benefitting from playing another year of high school. Many of those top players would waste a year of development playing against high school competition. Add in the fact that programs in Junior A and Ann Arbor have schedules tailored to get kids on the ice, in the weightroom, and the classroom.
Blake Wheeler is a perfect example. Big Frame, puts up 100 points as a junior, Wins a title. Players in the position really have no benefit of sticking around for their senior season when they're already so much further developed than the competition.
Absolutely, well said. I'm not against more games but let's not pretend that it's going to keep kids in High School. That's not why they leave.
Name a sport where there isn't considerable training/leagues available outside the high school season to athletes who'd like to pursue it. I can't think of one.
MN is unique from a lot of states in that we have 3 unique seasons with only slight overlap for those who make it far in the playoffs. In other states, when the football season is over, the track season begins for example. If you're on a bad fall team, you can miss a couple weeks of the winter season, but if you're on a good fall team you can miss a good portion of the season.
Depending on the [college] coach you talk to, you may hear that participating in as many activities as possible is best, you may hear that focusing on one is best or anywhere in between. Depending on the sport, you can do either in MN.
Could season lengths and allowed game be tweaked to not change this? Sure. But that's the framework we should work within.
The benefit is that you get more students to participate in more sports. Were you to change the seasons you may get some marginally benefit and some to not go to college, but overall participation in all sports would drastically reduce.