Team Size at Squirts

CHI-TOWN HOCKEYDAD · Post by **CHI-TOWN HOCKEYDAD** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:15 am

What do you feel is the optimal number of skaters and goalies per team at the Squirt level in association hockey?

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:22 am

13 skaters/1 goalie

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:27 am

10 and 2

Shoot Higher · Post by **Shoot Higher** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:52 am

Kind of depends on the age and level.

Our small team last year fell apart during play offs due to injuries at the end of the season.

Older kids and higher levels (A/B1) should be full 15/2. This allows more kids to be developed and enough kids provided some get injured.

Teams that might have commitment issues (younger kids and C level)
should also be larger (but no larger than 15/2)

observer · Post by **observer** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:19 am

15-2.

It's not uncommon for associations to balance some of the numbers between 3-4-5 teams. But, the Squirt A team should be 15-2.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:35 pm

10 skaters 1 goalie. Won the state tourney with that number last year but more importantly the kids got tons of ice time, tons of puck touches and really developed even in games which is not the case when you have 15 skaters on the team at this age. Some of the kids would not have been as good at the end of the season on a larger team becasuse of how much extra ice time this number allows them to have, I guarantee it. Yes injuries can happen but at squirt age they are not frequent and you can still play just fine with 9 if you have to. I'm actually pushing hard to have a similar number for our pee wee's this year. I don't care abotu wins and losses i care about ice time and puck touches, pure and simple

C-dad · Post by **C-dad** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:01 pm

JSR wrote:10 skaters 1 goalie. Won the state tourney with that number last year but more importantly the kids got tons of ice time, tons of puck touches and really developed even in games which is not the case when you have 15 skaters on the team at this age. Some of the kids would not have been as good at the end of the season on a larger team becasuse of how much extra ice time this number allows them to have, I guarantee it. Yes injuries can happen but at squirt age they are not frequent and you can still play just fine with 9 if you have to. I'm actually pushing hard to have a similar number for our pee wee's this year. I don't care abotu wins and losses i care about ice time and puck touches, pure and simple

There's a squirt state tournament now? How did I miss that?

Benito Juarez · Post by **Benito Juarez** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:05 pm

C-dad wrote:
JSR wrote:10 skaters 1 goalie. Won the state tourney with that number last year but more importantly the kids got tons of ice time, tons of puck touches and really developed even in games which is not the case when you have 15 skaters on the team at this age. Some of the kids would not have been as good at the end of the season on a larger team becasuse of how much extra ice time this number allows them to have, I guarantee it. Yes injuries can happen but at squirt age they are not frequent and you can still play just fine with 9 if you have to. I'm actually pushing hard to have a similar number for our pee wee's this year. I don't care abotu wins and losses i care about ice time and puck touches, pure and simple
There's a squirt state tournament now? How did I miss that?

In Wisconsin.

dogeatdog1 · Post by **dogeatdog1** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:32 pm

JSR wrote:10 skaters 1 goalie. Won the state tourney with that number last year but more importantly the kids got tons of ice time, tons of puck touches and really developed even in games which is not the case when you have 15 skaters on the team at this age. Some of the kids would not have been as good at the end of the season on a larger team becasuse of how much extra ice time this number allows them to have, I guarantee it. Yes injuries can happen but at squirt age they are not frequent and you can still play just fine with 9 if you have to. I'm actually pushing hard to have a similar number for our pee wee's this year. I don't care abotu wins and losses i care about ice time and puck touches, pure and simple

I always love when someone says they don't care about wins... why did you mention that you won the state tourney.

puck touches that matter are in practice and you cannot run a top speed developmental style practice with 10 kids adn a goalie. I assume that your kid is one of the top kids on the team and you don't want him being slowed down by the # 15 kid that will end up taking his spot when they are bantams and your kid is done growing. Short sighted....very short sighted

C-dad · Post by **C-dad** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:38 pm

Benito Juarez wrote:
C-dad wrote:
JSR wrote:10 skaters 1 goalie. Won the state tourney with that number last year but more importantly the kids got tons of ice time, tons of puck touches and really developed even in games which is not the case when you have 15 skaters on the team at this age. Some of the kids would not have been as good at the end of the season on a larger team becasuse of how much extra ice time this number allows them to have, I guarantee it. Yes injuries can happen but at squirt age they are not frequent and you can still play just fine with 9 if you have to. I'm actually pushing hard to have a similar number for our pee wee's this year. I don't care abotu wins and losses i care about ice time and puck touches, pure and simple
There's a squirt state tournament now? How did I miss that?
In Wisconsin.

Ah!

See, I was misled by the title of this forum "Minnesota Youth Hockey."

Benito Juarez · Post by **Benito Juarez** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:47 pm

Understandable C-dad, for the longest time I thought this sight was the "Florida Youth Hockey" forum.

Shinbone_News · Post by **Shinbone_News** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:51 pm

dogeatdog1 wrote:
JSR wrote:10 skaters 1 goalie. Won the state tourney with that number last year but more importantly the kids got tons of ice time, tons of puck touches and really developed even in games which is not the case when you have 15 skaters on the team at this age. Some of the kids would not have been as good at the end of the season on a larger team becasuse of how much extra ice time this number allows them to have, I guarantee it. Yes injuries can happen but at squirt age they are not frequent and you can still play just fine with 9 if you have to. I'm actually pushing hard to have a similar number for our pee wee's this year. I don't care abotu wins and losses i care about ice time and puck touches, pure and simple
I always love when someone says they don't care about wins... why did you mention that you won the state tourney. puck touches that matter are in practice and you cannot run a top speed developmental style practice with 10 kids adn a goalie. I assume that your kid is one of the top kids on the team and you don't want him being slowed down by the # 15 kid that will end up taking his spot when they are bantams and your kid is done growing. Short sighted....very short sighted

That was a bit of an obvious troll -- but probably deserved. I totally agree that a team of 10 would be great for most games, but practices would be tough. The more common problem at our association and this year's AAA commitment is way too many -- it's true that 15 can feel a bit crowded during games unless there are some regular absences (not all that common at A and B levels, C much more common), and 20 is way way too many -- a real disservice to everyone. (I won't let the boy play AAA next year unless coaches will assure me BEFORE I write the check that there will be no more than 3 full lines rostered for games. It's frustrating for everyone, including the players -- who actually get cold between shifts -- in the middle of August!) As a coach, I much preferred 3 forward lines and two D, plus a goalie. So I say 14 is the magic number

dogeatdog1 · Post by **dogeatdog1** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:36 pm

Shinbone_News wrote:
dogeatdog1 wrote:
JSR wrote:10 skaters 1 goalie. Won the state tourney with that number last year but more importantly the kids got tons of ice time, tons of puck touches and really developed even in games which is not the case when you have 15 skaters on the team at this age. Some of the kids would not have been as good at the end of the season on a larger team becasuse of how much extra ice time this number allows them to have, I guarantee it. Yes injuries can happen but at squirt age they are not frequent and you can still play just fine with 9 if you have to. I'm actually pushing hard to have a similar number for our pee wee's this year. I don't care abotu wins and losses i care about ice time and puck touches, pure and simple
I always love when someone says they don't care about wins... why did you mention that you won the state tourney. puck touches that matter are in practice and you cannot run a top speed developmental style practice with 10 kids adn a goalie. I assume that your kid is one of the top kids on the team and you don't want him being slowed down by the # 15 kid that will end up taking his spot when they are bantams and your kid is done growing. Short sighted....very short sighted
That was a bit of an obvious troll -- but probably deserved. I totally agree that a team of 10 would be great for most games, but practices would be tough. The more common problem at our association and this year's AAA commitment is way too many -- it's true that 15 can feel a bit crowded during games unless there are some regular absences (not all that common at A and B levels, C much more common), and 20 is way way too many -- a real disservice to everyone. (I won't let the boy play AAA next year unless coaches will assure me BEFORE I write the check that there will be no more than 3 full lines rostered for games. It's frustrating for everyone, including the players -- who actually get cold between shifts -- in the middle of August!) As a coach, I much preferred 3 forward lines and two D, plus a goalie. So I say 14 is the magic number

A good coach should be able to get three lines and 5 defense plenty of ice during a game. Once again the optimal amount should be defined by the practice pace and not how much time johnny gets in a game. If one truely wants to develop a coach should have18-20 kids flying around a rink at a practice at top speed with little standing in lines. The kids and coach should come off sweating or you are not getting your $$ worth.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:07 pm

As few as possible. 10-12 skaters.

SECoach · Post by **SECoach** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:22 pm

10-12 skaters and 2-3 teams on the ice for practices

Post by **karl(east)** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:02 pm

Mike Randolph gave an interesting interview near the end of last year that talked about this--it's near the end of Part 1 here: http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/news_article ... r_id=32770

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:43 am

dogeatdog1 wrote:
JSR wrote:10 skaters 1 goalie. Won the state tourney with that number last year but more importantly the kids got tons of ice time, tons of puck touches and really developed even in games which is not the case when you have 15 skaters on the team at this age. Some of the kids would not have been as good at the end of the season on a larger team becasuse of how much extra ice time this number allows them to have, I guarantee it. Yes injuries can happen but at squirt age they are not frequent and you can still play just fine with 9 if you have to. I'm actually pushing hard to have a similar number for our pee wee's this year. I don't care abotu wins and losses i care about ice time and puck touches, pure and simple
I always love when someone says they don't care about wins... why did you mention that you won the state tourney. puck touches that matter are in practice and you cannot run a top speed developmental style practice with 10 kids adn a goalie. I assume that your kid is one of the top kids on the team and you don't want him being slowed down by the # 15 kid that will end up taking his spot when they are bantams and your kid is done growing. Short sighted....very short sighted

Actually not shortsighted at all. Have you ever considered that the team shares it's ice with the 11 man B team for practices and they get ALOT out of practices. I've been to practices in MN, at AAA teams etc... our coach is one of the best coaches I've ever seen when it comes to working with kdis this age. JMHO. Apparently sharing ice for practices isn't something you'd thought of so very short sighted on your part. Getting more puck touches in games IS a form of practice at this age level. As for your other ignorant assumption, well I've come to expect that from some people on this board. Insightful posts are often met with uneducated insults about someone's kid that you know nothing about. People who think 15 skaters on a team is a good idea at the squirt level only see wins and losses and the team game rather than skill development which is essential at this age. As for my mentioning the state title, that was an illustration of how the method progressed all of the kids on the team skill wise. Our coaches don't work on breakouts, or systems or anything, it's all skill development at these ages and encouraging hockey sense. Apparently it's working, meanwhile continue with your barbs and insults, I'm sure it's how you mkae yourself feel better about your own situation

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:44 am

SECoach wrote:10-12 skaters and 2-3 teams on the ice for practices

Thank you SECoach. Intelligent answer, well played.

dogeatdog1 · Post by **dogeatdog1** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:43 am

JSR, I don't know about your coach and if you are skating with another team of B players I would bet that they have their own coach and are not slowing your kid down... Proven philosophy is the bigger the bottom of the Pyramid the more talented the top. You might win a state tourney at squirts but by limiting the 10 kids at the top at that level is in my opioion self serving and short sighted. No matter how you slice it you should have as many kid playing at the top level as you can because you cannot make a superstar in the 10th grade out of a kid that you and your super scouts said that he wasn't good enough to play squirt A hockey...or in your case Wisconsin Squirt A Hockey. (which is really B )sorry just had to take the cheese head shot. If you do only play with 10 I hope that the people that are picking the team make sure you look into your crystal ball and know that all 10 will still be there at Highschool. Looking back there have been a lot of these experiments done at squirt level. Minnetonka playing 12 kids for squirt A... Bantams last year that played 12 when they were squirts didn't do much. Edina an A and an A1 squirt team a couple of years ago was a flop. I think that Wayzata this year going to two peewee A teams has the right idea. They might not win state but when 5 of those kids leave in their 2nd year of Bantams to go private, they willhave skilled kids to fill their spots. Time will tell.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:15 pm

dogeatdog1 wrote:JSR, I don't know about your coach and if you are skating with another team of B players I would bet that they have their own coach and are not slowing your kid down... Proven philosophy is the bigger the bottom of the Pyramid the more talented the top. You might win a state tourney at squirts but by limiting the 10 kids at the top at that level is in my opioion self serving and short sighted. No matter how you slice it you should have as many kid playing at the top level as you can because you cannot make a superstar in the 10th grade out of a kid that you and your super scouts said that he wasn't good enough to play squirt A hockey...or in your case Wisconsin Squirt A Hockey. (which is really B )sorry just had to take the cheese head shot. If you do only play with 10 I hope that the people that are picking the team make sure you look into your crystal ball and know that all 10 will still be there at Highschool. Looking back there have been a lot of these experiments done at squirt level. Minnetonka playing 12 kids for squirt A... Bantams last year that played 12 when they were squirts didn't do much. Edina an A and an A1 squirt team a couple of years ago was a flop. I think that Wayzata this year going to two peewee A teams has the right idea. They might not win state but when 5 of those kids leave in their 2nd year of Bantams to go private, they willhave skilled kids to fill their spots. Time will tell.

You know one other huge detail that both I, you and everyone else has left out is size of assoication. If youa re in Edina and have 150+ kids just at the squirt age then of course it probably makes sense to have 15 skaters on a team. However, if you are in a small assocation and have 22 kids at the squirt age level then two teams with 10 skaters (and a goalie) each makes alot more sense. But that said, it's tough to compare apples to apples between large metro areas and small assoication areas, but I will say when you see small associations that have really good high school teams, chances are those played on small sized (ie 10 to 12 skaters or less) mite, squirt, peewee and bantam teams. You can find arguments and stats to prove both theories, I am not going to say either is definitively wrong or that eitehr is definitively right. But like most, when you see good results personally from doing it one way that is the one you'll be biased towards.

Benito Juarez · Post by **Benito Juarez** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:58 pm

Wisconsin Amateur Hockey Association
2011 State Tournament Pairings/Results
Click on a level to view pairings and results.

Squirt 1A
Squirt 1B
Squirt 1C
Squirt 2A
Squirt 2B
Squirt 2C
Squirt 3A
Squirt 3B
Squirt 4A

9 State Champions?

Impressive.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:43 pm

Benito Juarez wrote:Wisconsin Amateur Hockey Association
2011 State Tournament Pairings/Results
Click on a level to view pairings and results.

Squirt 1A
Squirt 1B
Squirt 1C
Squirt 2A
Squirt 2B
Squirt 2C
Squirt 3A
Squirt 3B
Squirt 4A

9 State Champions?

Impressive.

The number is based on association/town size (similar to your two MN state high school tournaments), the letter is whether it's an A, B or C level team.

As for the state titles, the 1A, 2A, and 3A champs were all good teams, the 1A state runner up was Sun Prairie, they went up to MN for a tournament and easily beat Albert Lea's Squirt A team 5-0 and beat New Ulm's Squirt A team 13-0. I have no idea how good or not those two MN teams are but it's a reference point. The 2A and 3A state champs were all in Sun Prairie's wheel house competition wise, about the same, the 1A state champ was definitively better than all of them. And yes, they "crown" state champs for the B and the C teams, why not, who is it hurting, and the kids love it (just so you don't go there, my son played for one of the top A teams though). Not looking for a confrontation or anything like that nor am I comparing WI hockey to Mn hockey so lets not even go there, I am just trying to educate so you understand the system better, no more no less.

luckyEPDad · Post by **luckyEPDad** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:25 pm

JSR wrote:As for the state titles, the 1A, 2A, and 3A champs were all good teams, the 1A state runner up was Sun Prairie, they went up to MN for a tournament and easily beat Albert Lea's Squirt A team 5-0 and beat New Ulm's Squirt A team 13-0. I have no idea how good or not those two MN teams are but it's a reference point. The 2A and 3A state champs were all in Sun Prairie's wheel house competition wise, about the same, the 1A state champ was definitively better than all of them. And yes, they "crown" state champs for the B and the C teams, why not, who is it hurting, and the kids love it (just so you don't go there, my son played for one of the top A teams though). Not looking for a confrontation or anything like that nor am I comparing WI hockey to Mn hockey so lets not even go there, I am just trying to educate so you understand the system better, no more no less.

I may be more confused now than before. Are 1, 2, 3 and 4 based on geographical regions (like Minnesota Districts) or population (like A and AA in Minnesota HS hockey), or something else altogether?

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:46 pm

luckyEPDad wrote:
JSR wrote:As for the state titles, the 1A, 2A, and 3A champs were all good teams, the 1A state runner up was Sun Prairie, they went up to MN for a tournament and easily beat Albert Lea's Squirt A team 5-0 and beat New Ulm's Squirt A team 13-0. I have no idea how good or not those two MN teams are but it's a reference point. The 2A and 3A state champs were all in Sun Prairie's wheel house competition wise, about the same, the 1A state champ was definitively better than all of them. And yes, they "crown" state champs for the B and the C teams, why not, who is it hurting, and the kids love it (just so you don't go there, my son played for one of the top A teams though). Not looking for a confrontation or anything like that nor am I comparing WI hockey to Mn hockey so lets not even go there, I am just trying to educate so you understand the system better, no more no less.
I may be more confused now than before. Are 1, 2, 3 and 4 based on geographical regions (like Minnesota Districts) or population (like A and AA in Minnesota HS hockey), or something else altogether?

The 1,2,3 and 4 are based on association size, aka how many kids play for your association (which is usually, though not always, related to population). So a 1 probably has atleast 3 teams at every level, a 2 usually has roughly two teams at every level, a 3 probably has 2 teams at some levels and 1 team at others and a 4 probably barely fields 1 team at every level. We do have geographical districts that these teams play in/for but we cal them Regions and there are 6 Regions in the state and you play in your Regional playoffs in order to get to the state tourney. Hope that clarifies things.

Benito Juarez · Post by **Benito Juarez** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:33 pm

JSR wrote:
luckyEPDad wrote:
JSR wrote:As for the state titles, the 1A, 2A, and 3A champs were all good teams, the 1A state runner up was Sun Prairie, they went up to MN for a tournament and easily beat Albert Lea's Squirt A team 5-0 and beat New Ulm's Squirt A team 13-0. I have no idea how good or not those two MN teams are but it's a reference point. The 2A and 3A state champs were all in Sun Prairie's wheel house competition wise, about the same, the 1A state champ was definitively better than all of them. And yes, they "crown" state champs for the B and the C teams, why not, who is it hurting, and the kids love it (just so you don't go there, my son played for one of the top A teams though). Not looking for a confrontation or anything like that nor am I comparing WI hockey to Mn hockey so lets not even go there, I am just trying to educate so you understand the system better, no more no less.
I may be more confused now than before. Are 1, 2, 3 and 4 based on geographical regions (like Minnesota Districts) or population (like A and AA in Minnesota HS hockey), or something else altogether?
The 1,2,3 and 4 are based on association size, aka how many kids play for your association (which is usually, though not always, related to population). So a 1 probably has atleast 3 teams at every level, a 2 usually has roughly two teams at every level, a 3 probably has 2 teams at some levels and 1 team at others and a 4 probably barely fields 1 team at every level. We do have geographical districts that these teams play in/for but we cal them Regions and there are 6 Regions in the state and you play in your Regional playoffs in order to get to the state tourney. Hope that clarifies things.

I'm with LuckyEPDad on this one....
I may be more confused now than before.