Development Opinions

[MrBoDangles]

Question 1
Is it best to play on one of the best teams for a certain birthyear and be a role player.....? Or is it best to be a go to guy(high scoring) on a team that's not quite as strong?

We'll say the training is the same and use Machine/ Blades verses Icemen for an example.

Question 2
What has held Minnesota back from having high scoring NHL players?

Just looking for opinions.

[old goalie85]

Tough one Bo. I used to think you would be better off being the third line kid on Edina than the first on FL. Getting better every practice vs the other top edina kids. Now I'm starting to lean the other way. It only took 12 yrs. [my oldest will be a senior] I think the kid that is the go to guy tends to learn things that can't be taught in any drill. The third line kid learns how to not make mistakes.

[HockeyDad41]

Agree with OG.

[MrBoDangles]

Tough one Bo. I used to think you would be better off being the third line kid on Edina than the first on FL. Getting better every practice vs the other top edina kids. Now I'm starting to lean the other way. It only took 12 yrs. [my oldest will be a senior] I think the kid that is the go to guy tends to learn things that can't be taught in any drill. The third line kid learns how to not make mistakes.

Forest Lake would definately be an example for go to guys on a second tier team.... They rely on a couple guys heavily(do a bulk of the scoring) and both could/should end up D-1 players.

[old goalie85]

Would be a good ? for someone working on thier level 5.

[flpucknut]

I think a mix of both is ideal. I'll use my son as an example. while he is quite young, I did see him hold back when on a summer team last year with stronger players. This past winter he was one of the most skilled kids on his team and learned that if scoring was going to be done, he would be one of the ones expected to do it. He was kind of forced into a leadership role, without really wanting it. Now this summer he is on a team with even higher talent and while I saw him holding back at the beginning, I think he realized that he can indeed skate and play at this level and since he gained his confidence, his game has improved significantly.

Some kids are leaders, some aren't. I think both situations can really help their progression. Fear of failure is a big deal at the youth level. I see soooo many kids holding back for fear of making a mistake. Its the ones who are able to forget about the mistakes, and keep working that end up to be our stars.

[O-townClown]

My opinion is that in the scenario you described, being an average player on a top team is not advantageous for individual player development.

This is why I am biased against a lot of the things favored by today's generation of parents.

You can improve as a big fish in a small pond, and often will do so at an accelerated rate.

[RsmtMoose]

Question 2. I don’t have a clue, so I can’t add an opinion. Question 1 is a great question, I just don’t know if there is a right answer. I think may be a matter of perspective, from the owner of program, coaches, player, parent of a child going through this for the first time and parent of a child who has been through this before with another child. From a player’s perspective, at some point it may be a matter of what your goals are. Would you rather be a star on a D3 team or a role player on a D1 team, but be on a bigger stage. Maybe your goal is to see what is the highest level team you can be a part of, or maybe you just like being on a certain team. You like the coach and players of a team and want to stick with them. In hockey, it seems like many players have to put their “dues in” before they get put in the star role, at least with the older kids. With the younger AAA kids you should maybe try to look at it from all the perspectives, but maybe put your kid’s decision above the rest. You might be the 3 string violinist in the Minnesota Orchestra and not get many solos, but you are in the Minnesota Orchestra and playing with the best. Like a friend of mine just said to me yesterday, it will probably all change when they get some hair under their arms.

[MrBoDangles]

My opinion is that in the scenario you described, being an average player on a top team is not advantageous for individual player development.

This is why I am biased against a lot of the things favored by today's generation of parents.

You can improve as a big fish in a small pond, and often will do so at an accelerated rate.

Delete

[Quasar]

Top three Minnesota 2010-2011 High School scorers

Tyler Heinonen senior Delano High School 83 points
Ville Rantanen senior Mankato West High School 80 points
Justin Kloos junior Lakeville South High School 79 points

Way better than being buried at Edina

[MrBoDangles]

My opinion is that in the scenario you described, being an average player on a top team is not advantageous for individual player development.

This is why I am biased against a lot of the things favored by today's generation of parents.

You can improve as a big fish in a small pond, and often will do so at an accelerated rate.

I missed the "not".

I'm starting to agree.....

[hockey59]

Question 1
Is it best to play on one of the best teams for a certain birthyear and be a role player.....? Or is it best to be a go to guy(high scoring) on a team that's not quite as strong?

We'll say the training is the same and use Machine/ Blades verses Icemen for an example.

Question 2
What has held Minnesota back from having high scoring NHL players?

Just looking for opinions.

Regarding Question 1, based on the experiences my 1990 birth year son had playing AAA hockey and my 1998 birth year son is currently experiencing...the real key is to find a AAA team whose development and competition goals and coaching staff most closely align with your sons ability level and goals for his future. There is no one correct answer because every kid is different in natural ability, size, skills and most importantly...PASSION for the game of hockey.

Back in the day with the 1990 birth years, teams were much less structured during the summer regarding practicing (with a few exceptions like the 90 Blades and 90 Lightning)...who along with the Icemen, Jr. Gophers, Blasters, Northern Wings and Lake Superior Stars rounded out the top teams...and while the latter 5 teams didn't practice all that regularly... they were still able to compete on a fairly level playing field with Blades and Lightning.

Jump forward 8 years and EVERYBODY (the better teams) pretty much practice regularly during the summer...so a key is being challenged in practice and games...but also having FUN in practice and in games...because getting to the top as a hockey player...ie (MN Select 15 district and MN Select 16 & 17 section teams, making top 102 at 15 and top 54 at 16 & 17...making USA hockey national 15, 16, 17 player development camps in Rochester, NY)...playing HS Elite League, Juniors, Div 1 or professionally... is above all...a MARATHON process...and once a hockey player achieves any or all of these milestones in their development...staying on top is even TOUGHER than reaching the top. Bottom line...a kid must enjoy the process of climbing the ladder...because climbing that ladder is NEVER going to stop until the day they hang up their skates...be that at age 15, 20, 25 or 30.

That said, its not what AAA team your son plays on that will deternine his development and ultimately his future as a hockey player going forward...it is his 1) PASSION for the game 2) ability, skill level and size 3) FUN he has playing with his teammates in the summer (and winter). Playing on a team as a youth like the Blades or Machine has many positive attributes...but so does playing on a team like the MN Icemen, CCM Flyers or ITR 26ers...(to name a few) and while it always benefits a player to on the ice during critical moments of a game...every player must someday learn to be a role player too.

[Quasar]

Question 1
Is it best to play on one of the best teams for a certain birthyear and be a role player.....? Or is it best to be a go to guy(high scoring) on a team that's not quite as strong?

We'll say the training is the same and use Machine/ Blades verses Icemen for an example.

Question 2
What has held Minnesota back from having high scoring NHL players?

Just looking for opinions.

Regarding Question 1, based on the experiences my 1990 birth year son had playing AAA hockey and my 1998 birth year son is currently experiencing...the real key is to find a AAA team whose development and competition goals and coaching staff most closely align with your sons ability level and goals for his future. There is no one correct answer because every kid is different in natural ability, size, skills and most importantly...PASSION for the game of hockey.

Back in the day with the 1990 birth years, teams were much less structured during the summer regarding practicing (with a few exceptions like the 90 Blades and 90 Lightning)...who along with the Icemen, Jr. Gophers, Blasters, Northern Wings and Lake Superior Stars rounded out the top teams...and while the latter 5 teams didn't practice all that regularly... they were still able to compete on a fairly level playing field with Blades and Lightning.

Jump forward 8 years and EVERYBODY (the better teams) pretty much practice regularly during the summer...so a key is being challenged in practice and games...but also having FUN in practice and in games...because getting to the top as a hockey player...ie (MN Select 15 district and MN Select 16 & 17 section teams, making top 102 at 15 and top 54 at 16 & 17...making USA hockey national 15, 16, 17 player development camps in Rochester, NY)...playing HS Elite League, Juniors, Div 1 or professionally... is above all...a MARATHON process...and once a hockey player achieves any or all of these milestones in their development...staying on top is even TOUGHER than reaching the top. Bottom line...a kid must enjoy the process of climbing the ladder...because climbing that ladder is NEVER going to stop until the day they hang up their skates...be that at age 15, 20, 25 or 30.

That said, its not what AAA team your son plays on that will deternine his development and ultimately his future as a hockey player going forward...it is his 1) PASSION for the game 2) ability, skill level and size 3) FUN he has playing with his teammates in the summer (and winter). Playing on a team as a youth like the Blades or Machine has many positive attributes...but so does playing on a team like the MN Icemen, CCM Flyers or ITR 26ers...(to name a few) and while it always benefits a player to on the ice during critical moments of a game...every player must someday learn to be a role player too.

I think you nailed it !!!

[RsmtMoose]

Thanks hockey59.

[O-townClown]

Thanks hockey59.

No kidding. Great post. I thought it was pretty good and then he mentioned the marathon process and threw in the part about how staying on top is hard. Bingo! I need to send that to a lot of families here.

In recruiting for Tier I teams, I've noticed people are far more interested in the true standout at a low level than they are in a bottom quartile player at a high level. Same holds true when colleges recruit scholarship athletes.

There is a rush to be average in our country. Not sure why.

[InigoMontoya]

The pond hockey model would indicate that a mix is best. As a peewee on the pond you get to chase after the high school kids and practice your dangles and deeks on the mites.

[MrBoDangles]

Question 1
Is it best to play on one of the best teams for a certain birthyear and be a role player.....? Or is it best to be a go to guy(high scoring) on a team that's not quite as strong?

We'll say the training is the same and use Machine/ Blades verses Icemen for an example.

Question 2
What has held Minnesota back from having high scoring NHL players?

Just looking for opinions.

Regarding Question 1, based on the experiences my 1990 birth year son had playing AAA hockey and my 1998 birth year son is currently experiencing...the real key is to find a AAA team whose development and competition goals and coaching staff most closely align with your sons ability level and goals for his future. There is no one correct answer because every kid is different in natural ability, size, skills and most importantly...PASSION for the game of hockey.

Back in the day with the 1990 birth years, teams were much less structured during the summer regarding practicing (with a few exceptions like the 90 Blades and 90 Lightning)...who along with the Icemen, Jr. Gophers, Blasters, Northern Wings and Lake Superior Stars rounded out the top teams...and while the latter 5 teams didn't practice all that regularly... they were still able to compete on a fairly level playing field with Blades and Lightning.

Jump forward 8 years and EVERYBODY (the better teams) pretty much practice regularly during the summer...so a key is being challenged in practice and games...but also having FUN in practice and in games...because getting to the top as a hockey player...ie (MN Select 15 district and MN Select 16 & 17 section teams, making top 102 at 15 and top 54 at 16 & 17...making USA hockey national 15, 16, 17 player development camps in Rochester, NY)...playing HS Elite League, Juniors, Div 1 or professionally... is above all...a MARATHON process...and once a hockey player achieves any or all of these milestones in their development...staying on top is even TOUGHER than reaching the top. Bottom line...a kid must enjoy the process of climbing the ladder...because climbing that ladder is NEVER going to stop until the day they hang up their skates...be that at age 15, 20, 25 or 30.

That said, its not what AAA team your son plays on that will deternine his development and ultimately his future as a hockey player going forward...it is his 1) PASSION for the game 2) ability, skill level and size 3) FUN he has playing with his teammates in the summer (and winter). Playing on a team as a youth like the Blades or Machine has many positive attributes...but so does playing on a team like the MN Icemen, CCM Flyers or ITR 26ers...(to name a few) and while it always benefits a player to on the ice during critical moments of a game...every player must someday learn to be a role player too.

59, Do you think it's possible for it to be a negative to be on a high caliber team and be just an average joe? Could a kid become lulled into forgeting how to score?

There have been 260+ one hundred point plus seasons in the NHL. Minnesota has had 1 player have a 1 hundred point season. Anyone have any ideas why this is? Are these type of players in our near future?

[Eric1984]

In terms of the 1st question, I think you need a bit of both. For a forward, you do need to have time with the puck and build your confidence in terms your ability to shoot, pass, forecheck, backcheck, etc.. That said, you do need to eventually be pushed in ways that you won't being on a weak team where expectations will be lower and may lead to laziness. You have to pay greater attention to detail, go to the 'dirty areas' to score goals, make contributions that go beyond simply scoring.

As for MN NHL players not generally being scorers, I will say as an outsider, MN teams have what looks to be a highly egalitarian ethos that drives them. It doesn't look like high end teams necessarily encourage singular offensive talent so while you have very deep, disciplined, hard working teams, it doesn't have many players that have the wow factor.

[luckyEPDad]

As for MN NHL players not generally being scorers, I will say as an outsider, MN teams have what looks to be a highly egalitarian ethos that drives them. It doesn't look like high end teams necessarily encourage singular offensive talent so while you have very deep, disciplined, hard working teams, it doesn't have many players that have the wow factor.

Funny you mention that. Recenly we played a tournament in Brooklyn Park. I pointed out Krissy Wendell's framed jersey and the plaques talking about her scoring records. One girl said "Wow!". The other said "Did she ever pass?"

[Eric1984]

It reminds of the scene in Miracle where Mark Johnson (a MN NHL player who did have some scoring touch) who during practice scored on a beautiful end to end rush only to get ripped by Herb Brooks.

[hockey59]

"59, Do you think it's possible for it to be a negative to be on a high caliber team and be just an average joe? Could a kid become lulled into forgeting how to score?

There have been 260+ one hundred point plus seasons in the NHL. Minnesota has had 1 player have a 1 hundred point season. Anyone have any ideas why this is? Are these type of players in our near future?"

If a player aspires to be a top player. it takes the attributes I noted in an earlier post to have a chance to reach the highest levels...

being an average player on a high end team isnt in itself a bad thing...as long as the player (and his parents) have a realistic handle on where the player truely stands in his progression up the developmenbt ladder

and the player loves the game enough to enjoy the process it will take to continue improving.

Nobody who is a true scorer really forgets how to score ...but some kids fear making mistakes so they take less chances on the ice. What top players have in common is they "make plays on the ice" whether it results in a scoring chance or a key defensive play...and they do it on a consistent basis without much fear of failure. What most top offensive players have in common is the ability to "create offense while carrying and passing the puck and the ability to create their own shot"...or to usa a Basketball analogy....the ability to beat guys off the dribble...and same applies in hockey although the older a kid gets, the TOUGHERr it is to do successfully..so the ones who can continue doing it at age 15, 16,17,18,19,20,21 etc...typically (but not always) are the kids who ultimately progress the farthest, at least offensively

As far a why only Broten and Mile Modano are only americasns who have scored 100 points...I think the state of MN is more than capable of producing many good NHL players going forward...but overall scoring numbers are way dowen in the NHL compared to the 1980's because overall, the bottom tier NHL player nowdays are vastly better than the lower tier players were 30 years ago IMO and the equipment size nowdays greatly favors goalies compared to 30 years ago...the last thing is if you have ever traveled to Canada durinbg the springtime you know tht Canadian kids are spoonfed hockey by the media on TV on TSN...the way american kids are spoonfed the NFL...and i do think that inspires canadian kids to hav ehigh aspirations as a hockey player....because hockey is really the only sport that matter to most canadian kids.

[MrBoDangles]

"59, Do you think it's possible for it to be a negative to be on a high caliber team and be just an average joe? Could a kid become lulled into forgeting how to score?

There have been 260+ one hundred point plus seasons in the NHL. Minnesota has had 1 player have a 1 hundred point season. Anyone have any ideas why this is? Are these type of players in our near future?"

If a player aspires to be a top player. it takes the attributes I noted in an earlier post to have a chance to reach the highest levels...

being an average player on a high end team isnt in itself a bad thing...as long as the player (and his parents) have a realistic handle on where the player truely stands in his progression up the developmenbt ladder

and the player loves the game enough to enjoy the process it will take to continue improving.

Nobody who is a true scorer really forgets how to score ...but some kids fear making mistakes so they take less chances on the ice. What top players have in common is they "make plays on the ice" whether it results in a scoring chance or a key defensive play...and they do it on a consistent basis without much fear of failure. What most top offensive players have in common is the ability to "create offense while carrying and passing the puck and the ability to create their own shot"...or to usa a Basketball analogy....the ability to beat guys off the dribble...and same applies in hockey although the older a kid gets, the TOUGHERr it is to do successfully..so the ones who can continue doing it at age 15, 16,17,18,19,20,21 etc...typically (but not always) are the kids who ultimately progress the farthest, at least offensively

As far a why only Broten and Mile Modano are only americasns who have scored 100 points...I think the state of MN is more than capable of producing many good NHL players going forward...but overall scoring numbers are way dowen in the NHL compared to the 1980's because overall, the bottom tier NHL player nowdays are vastly better than the lower tier players were 30 years ago IMO and the equipment size nowdays greatly favors goalies compared to 30 years ago...the last thing is if you have ever traveled to Canada durinbg the springtime you know tht Canadian kids are spoonfed hockey by the media on TV on TSN...the way american kids are spoonfed the NFL...and i do think that inspires canadian kids to hav ehigh aspirations as a hockey player....because hockey is really the only sport that matter to most canadian kids.

I am able to respect the "passion" and "marathon",.. But I'm convinced that situation or environment take a bigger piece of the pie. A kid in South Dakota might have more passion than anyone on the planet, but does he have the right environment to become an elite player? Is a kid on an elite team that scores one goal in a season going to become a better player? Or is a kid on a team(a little less elite) that scores 42 goals going to become better?

I just don't see a young kid taking a back seat on an elite team learning the scoring skills that they could get in another situation.

There has to be situation factors, right?

I guess I was wishing for answers on a platter.

[black sheep]

interesting that so many think that the "big fish in a small pond" is advantageous.

that is the exact opposite of the way canada and europe do it, and the opposite of what the ADM is working towards. opposite of what the elite league is supposed to do. opposite of why the crosbys, parises etc. go to shattuck

it also seems it is commonly misconcieved that a 3rd line player in Edina would somehow be a star in Little Falls or TRF, or Lakeville, but that is simply not true. Nothing but metro mumbojumbo. Talent is talent. The elite league has shown that over & over again.

IF MN wants to create truely elite players, then MN will have to change its structure where the elite players get the best opprotunites and coaching. No place else in the world does a Squirt C player get equal opprotunities to the A level players.

playing against elite players might be a faster route to find out that you are an average player, but the elite players will develop at a faster rate, the cream rises to the top as they say.

[MrBoDangles]

interesting that so many think that the "big fish in a small pond" is advantageous.

that is the exact opposite of the way canada and europe do it, and the opposite of what the ADM is working towards. opposite of what the elite league is supposed to do. opposite of why the crosbys, parises etc. go to shattuck

it also seems it is commonly misconcieved that a 3rd line player in Edina would somehow be a star in Little Falls or TRF, or Lakeville, but that is simply not true. Nothing but metro mumbojumbo. Talent is talent. The elite league has shown that over & over again.

IF MN wants to create truely elite players, then MN will have to change its structure where the elite players get the best opprotunites and coaching. No place else in the world does a Squirt C player get equal opprotunities to the A level players.

playing against elite players might be a faster route to find out that you are an average player, but the elite players will develop at a faster rate, the cream rises to the top as they say.

I agree with many of your opinions.

Your last paragraph might prove the point for the people with a different theory though.... You kinda explain that playing with a couple(better at the current time) go to guys might turn you into a (average) role player, or help you find out that you're an average player. Where as if you are a nine year old scoring a bunch of points for a different(step lower) team might be bringing their level up as a player.

[JSR]

It reminds of the scene in Miracle where Mark Johnson (a MN NHL player who did have some scoring touch) who during practice scored on a beautiful end to end rush only to get ripped by Herb Brooks.

MN Hockey player??? I guess Mark was technically born in MN but he moved to Madison, WI when he was very young, he was, by all rights, raised in Madison, played H.S. hockey in Madison and played for the Badgers. I guess I would call him a WI hockey player not a MN hockey player based on where he played the overwhelming majority of his youth, high school, and college hockey. Seems arbitrary to claim him for MN just because he was born there.....