Summer Tourney Ethics

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Tue May 10, 2011 11:05 am

Our young team was put in a tough spot during an AAA tourney this spring. We played against a team that was very weak. They were the same age as the other players but just a team put together to play summer hockey. Our team scored 8 goals in the first period and then they stopped putting the score on the board. Our coaches moved all the players around and told the kids to pass 5-7 times before shooting the puck but when they did shot it went it. They played hard being it was their first game together but did not play as hard as they could.

Question: When in a game like this do you just stop shooting at the net so you do not score any goals and just play keep away, OR do you let the players practice passing the puck all over the ice and shoot after many passes? Either way the other team is going to be upset and will not like the outcome but what do you do? I feel playing keep away is a terrible thing to do since it would be mocking the other team. On the other hand you do not want to score a huge amount of goals if the goalie lets them all in. This is a summer team where all the teams payed $ to play and want to work on skills and have fun. Never shooting would be a hard thing to do and still have fun.

You opinions?

Benito Juarez · Post by **Benito Juarez** » Tue May 10, 2011 11:11 am

Play 4 on 5 and work on shorthanded penalty kill without the iceing.

Have players switch sticks, righties to lefties, lefties to righties.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Tue May 10, 2011 11:46 am

Benito Juarez wrote:Play 4 on 5 and work on shorthanded penalty kill without the iceing.

Have players switch sticks, righties to lefties, lefties to righties.

I disagree Benito, that would be equally, if not more insulting. And even then it is likely the kids would still score but now they are doing it 4 on 5.
Blade, We were in the EXACT situation earlier this spring. I don't care if it is Open, Invite or Elite, this is AAA hockey, not rec hockey. If you enter a tournament you should know the caliber of your team. If you choose to enter said tourney with that team then you should be able to accept the outcome even if it is a huge blowout. On the flip side, what disheartens me is that the team that put up the huge numbers paid real money to be in a competitive tourney and it is a bit disappointing when you have games like those. To me if you lose 9-1 but the winning team had to earn all 9 goals over the course of 3 periods that is ok, but when you win like 20-0 and you aren't even needing to give 100% to score those 20 that is another problem altogether. I think the best you can do is tell the kids they have to complete "X" number of passes before they are allowed to shoot, then maybe for anyone that has a 4+ goals you have to challenge them to get more assists or something individually but you can't tell them to stop trying and stop playing the game either. It really is a no win situation and you hope you can jsut get the game over as quick as possible. JMHO

HockeyDad41 · Post by **HockeyDad41** » Tue May 10, 2011 3:31 pm

I think this has a lot to do with the influx of kids playing summer hockey. There is a huge gap from top to bottom in the open divisions. Good open level teams like Skate to Excellence and Ice Edge Elite are finding that they are only getting maybe 1 competitive game out of 4 in these tournaments.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Tue May 10, 2011 4:27 pm

HockeyDad41 wrote:I think this has a lot to do with the influx of kids playing summer hockey. There is a huge gap from top to bottom in the open divisions. Good open level teams like Skate to Excellence and Ice Edge Elite are finding that they are only getting maybe 1 competitive game out of 4 in these tournaments.

I understand what you mean. I think maybe we're starting to see this but maybe we need to redefine things going forward. Maybe teams like STE and IEE should now be called Invite AAA teams, teams like Machine and Blades are now Elite AAA, and all those others are now Open teams, so that teams like IEE, STE and others don't enter Open tourneys but also don't inappropriately enter super high level Elite ones either. Maybe that would help.

Cut Above · Post by **Cut Above** » Tue May 10, 2011 5:38 pm

Delete

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Tue May 10, 2011 6:20 pm

I would LOVE to see a AAA league in MN. All the good solid AAA teams play each other thru the summer and have a tourney at the end. This would eliminate the poor teams and every team would get good solid games. Cost would be lower since it would be just games (more like $10 a player for a game). If anyone would like to help set this up let me know

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Tue May 10, 2011 7:07 pm

Fun idea, but that's tough in the current climate, with the exception of a few programs, most of the programs are a little hit and miss. Velocity has a stellar 96 team and a pretty good 99 team (if I remember correctly); the Icemen are pretty good at 98 and 00, but have no 99 or 01 team; several programs are developing from the young kids up and don't even have 97s or 98s or 99s; and with the 02s and 03 it's really hit or miss.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Tue May 10, 2011 7:20 pm

I agree w/ Inigo, Maybe in a couple years.

HockeyDad41 · Post by **HockeyDad41** » Tue May 10, 2011 8:18 pm

Blade wrote:I would LOVE to see a AAA league in MN. All the good solid AAA teams play each other thru the summer and have a tourney at the end. This would eliminate the poor teams and every team would get good solid games. Cost would be lower since it would be just games (more like $10 a player for a game). If anyone would like to help set this up let me know

Wasn't something similar to this tried a couple of years ago? Not a AAA league, but more of a cooperation between programs?

trippedovertheblueline · Tue May 10, 2011 9:52 pm

HockeyDad41 wrote:
Blade wrote:I would LOVE to see a AAA league in MN. All the good solid AAA teams play each other thru the summer and have a tourney at the end. This would eliminate the poor teams and every team would get good solid games. Cost would be lower since it would be just games (more like $10 a player for a game). If anyone would like to help set this up let me know
Wasn't something similar to this tried a couple of years ago? Not a AAA league, but more of a cooperation between programs?

How did that work out for the Meltdown

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Tue May 10, 2011 10:00 pm

Are you talking about the infamous ALLIANCE. Ya that worked out well.

HockeyDad41 · Post by **HockeyDad41** » Wed May 11, 2011 7:59 am

old goalie85 wrote:Are you talking about the infamous ALLIANCE. Ya that worked out well.

Sounds familiar, either I was oblivious to the whole thing or it was over before we really got involved with AAA.

I wouldn't be surprised if going forward more teams choose to schedule scrimmages and host their own smaller events with familiar teams rather than spend the big dollars to enter a tournament where they either win or lose every game by a blow out.

I think that tournament directors are going to have to get better at their craft and team coaches and GM's are going to have to be honest with themselves, the players and their players parents when evaluating the teams. Isn't the goal to try to have a competitive game? My kid has been on both sides of the blowout and neither is very satisfying. A good hard fought game where the outcome is in question until the very end is really what we should all be looking for.

You will always have the people that care more about filling their pockets with cash or bringing home a shiny new trophy, maybe if we can identify and blacklist them we can minimize their impact on our game.

Good topic. I'd love to see more parity in the summer tournaments.

Benito Juarez · Post by **Benito Juarez** » Wed May 11, 2011 8:07 am

HockeyDad41 wrote: I'd love to see more parity in the summer tournaments.

The only sure way to achieve parity is to get rid of free agency and install a draft system.

GoBigorGoHome · Post by **GoBigorGoHome** » Wed May 11, 2011 9:55 am

"Open" level tournaments have become a farce. More and more teams are bringing in "elite" (if it is possilble to use such a word to describe 8-12 year olds) caliber players in an effort to win a tournament and build credibility for their AAA programs. True Open level teams have little chance against these all-star teams. You'd better get used to the lopsided tournament scores, especially at the so-called Open level, because as long as this practice of bringing in mercenaries in an attempt to win a trophy continues, "ethical" is the last word to be used to describe summer hockey.

dogeatdog1 · Post by **dogeatdog1** » Wed May 11, 2011 10:05 am

Blade wrote:I would LOVE to see a AAA league in MN. All the good solid AAA teams play each other thru the summer and have a tourney at the end. This would eliminate the poor teams and every team would get good solid games. Cost would be lower since it would be just games (more like $10 a player for a game). If anyone would like to help set this up let me know

Showcase AAA was that league a few years ago and the teams were AA and partly AAA level. There was too much focus on Games and league play and not enough development. TH has adapted his program to make it more about development and is very flexible in scheduling ice for practice and scrimmages. I find it is the best of both worlds if you have a good organizer and coach that wants to develop a group of young kids. It works good now as you can practice more and get the open type tournaments so the kids get some games under their belts. You will always get the teams that try to beef up to win a tounament but for the younger age kids This is the best thing going unless you have an elite player.

HockeyDad41 · Post by **HockeyDad41** » Wed May 11, 2011 12:24 pm

dogeatdog1 wrote:
Blade wrote:I would LOVE to see a AAA league in MN. All the good solid AAA teams play each other thru the summer and have a tourney at the end. This would eliminate the poor teams and every team would get good solid games. Cost would be lower since it would be just games (more like $10 a player for a game). If anyone would like to help set this up let me know
Showcase AAA was that league a few years ago and the teams were AA and partly AAA level. There was too much focus on Games and league play and not enough development. TH has adapted his program to make it more about development and is very flexible in scheduling ice for practice and scrimmages. I find it is the best of both worlds if you have a good organizer and coach that wants to develop a group of young kids. It works good now as you can practice more and get the open type tournaments so the kids get some games under their belts. You will always get the teams that try to beef up to win a tounament but for the younger age kids This is the best thing going unless you have an elite player.

Maybe it was better several years ago, but the Showcase league, at least at the levels my kids played at, was the biggest joke ever. Great concept, just horribly executed.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Wed May 11, 2011 7:10 pm

GoBigorGoHome wrote:"Open" level tournaments have become a farce. More and more teams are bringing in "elite" (if it is possilble to use such a word to describe 8-12 year olds) caliber players in an effort to win a tournament and build credibility for their AAA programs. True Open level teams have little chance against these all-star teams. You'd better get used to the lopsided tournament scores, especially at the so-called Open level, because as long as this practice of bringing in mercenaries in an attempt to win a trophy continues, "ethical" is the last word to be used to describe summer hockey.

So, my questions for you is what do you feel the reason for summer hockey is if it is not to try win games? Most kids that play summer hockey do not want to practice all the time and want to play games and win. Summer hockey is about having fun and playing other good team.

I know my team does not practice at all and just plays games in the summer. And I know that it is going to take a GREAT team to beat us......

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Mon May 16, 2011 12:17 pm

No Political Connections wrote:You have to know what you have going into the summer. I bet that if you look at that team that is on a tear this year they did the same thing last year and the year before. How about the coaches and parents of these power house teams taking a look at what they had and what they will have (I bet the turnover on the roster is slim to none) and then going looking for a tourney to fit into. Take your big time Bantam Minor team down the road to Chicago and play in the Shuffle. Go to Detroit and get into tournies with Victory Honda, Belle Tire, the West Dundee Leafs and the likes rather than enter a tourney that historically been filled with weak summer teams and clean house so bad that you are not allowing your kids to shoot. Go to where the big dogs howl and do some barking. I have had kids on both sides of the shoe and have hated both. Nothing makes you feel like you wasted a bunch of time and money quicker than taking them someplace and realizing that they did not learn anything from it.

I totally agree, BUT when a team asks the tourney dir about the teams coming in and that they have a strong team the tourney dir might not know what the other teams are like. Our team coach did ask before going in and I beleive that they were told that there would be good competition there. I also heard that when a few of the teams registared that they were told there were strong teams in the tourney that might outclass them (this coming from a different team coach and parents I spoke to). Either way it is a tough spot for the kids. I sure hope that the rest of the summer tourneys do not end up like this last one.

observer · Post by **observer** » Mon May 16, 2011 1:07 pm

Each year it will get a little easier. My guess is that 1998 and older has been pretty well defined. 99 and younger will be a crap shoot for awhile. Most teams switch a few pieces each year and where they belong becomes more clear to the coach and manager each season.