St Louis Park vs Schwan's Gold Division?

[HShockeywatcher]

The last half decade or so I have enjoyed going to the different venues to see quality teams play in the different divisions of the Schwan's Cup. Last year St Louis Park started a tournament attracting some of the state's best teams, with many past Schwan's participants. I'm curious to get opinions on each from others.

The St Louis Park tournament was started in the last few years and now has some of the state's top teams in it. While you do not have the honor of playing at the X if you make the finals, you will be playing in an arena that is probably going to be packed for all of the games and against some of the state's top teams.

The teams playing in the Schwan's Cup will also be playing against top teams in the state and playing most of their games either at Mariucci or the X. This has been the premier tournament of the holiday season for the majority of the last decade. Schwan's also has the hierarchy system where a team can move up or down to another division to hopefully get teams of similar quality playing each other. In Schwan's you also get to see how some of the state's class A teams do against class AA teams.

That being said, only 1 of the teams in the SLP tourney have not played in Schwan's in the past (5 two years ago, 1 three years ago, 1 four years ago); the one team to not have played in Schwan's is Eden Prairie.

Curious if there is a specific reason for teams leving Schwan's. Also wondering if either gives teams any preference on who they play first round, times, which side of the bracket, etc.

St Louis Park:
http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/docu ... ackets.pdf

Schwan's Cup Gold Division:
http://net.minnesotasportsonline.com/br ... 9&yid=1011

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

The Saint Louis Park tournament has a nice format, three consecutive days, all at the same arena. The field is certainly respectable. I'd just as soon my Pioneers get in that tournament as be in the Schwan's. That or get in the Edina tournament if it were moved to the week between Christmas and New Years. In another thread I rant about my annoyances with the Schwan's: no atmosphere, pricey tickets, too many arenas spread over too many days

I've been wondering how White Bear stays in the Schwan's Gold, but seeing how the Saint Louis Park tournament has been siphoning off quality squads, may be that's why White Bear doesn't get moved down. Holy Angels has been moved down, and White Bear hasn't done any more damage than them the last five years.

[HShockeywatcher]

The Saint Louis Park tournament has a nice format, three consecutive days, all at the same arena. The field is certainly respectable. I'd just as soon my Pioneers get in that tournament as be in the Schwan's. That or get in the Edina tournament if it were moved to the week between Christmas and New Years. In another thread I rant about my annoyances with the Schwan's: no atmosphere, pricey tickets, too many arenas spread over too many days

I've been wondering how White Bear stays in the Schwan's Gold, but seeing how the Saint Louis Park tournament has been siphoning off quality squads, may be that's why White Bear doesn't get moved down. Holy Angels has been moved down, and White Bear hasn't done any more damage than them the last five years.

1. no atmosphere; agreed.

2. pricey tickets; only at the X, which makes sense being that it's the X. Seeing a game at the X for $10 is fine with me when nose bleeds for NHL are 8x that. The other venues the tickets are "normal" priced from what I remember.

3. too many days; it's over 4 days. First two games, then a day's rest if you make the finals so they can all be at the X. When you have 4 tournaments, that'll happen.

4. Every year the team to go 0-3 in the Gold Division has played in the Silver Division the next.

Just my two cents.

[old goalie85]

St, louis Park....

[old goalie85]

Not Spring Lake Park...Right????

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

Schwan tickets at Mariucci/Xcel are $12. I've long thought that someone is taking a bath on it. I don't see how the X makes money on it, and Since htey treat it 3rd class I must be right. It's been pinted out to me that the price is for 4 games, all day. But If I stay from noon till 10 PM, how much will I spend on food/drinks?

I see the third place game is in the evening on New Years Eve. I suppose it won't draw many whenever it's held, but still an odd time.

[MNHockeyFan]

Looking at the LPH rankings, St. Louis Park has 3 of the top 4 rated AA teams (1- Wayzata, 2 - Eden Prairie & 4-BSM) plus Maple Grove at #11. So it's a great opportunity to see the state's "cream of the crop) under one roof (which is probably something you will not be able to see at the Xcel in March). The downside is that the other 4 teams are not currently ranked in the top 20, so "on paper" at least there could be some mismatches.

Even though Schwan's Gold doesn't have as many AA teams ranked at the very top, the entire field does appear to be better balanced. They have the top two rated Class A teams (St. Thomas and Breck), which is always interesting to see how they match up, plus they have highly regarded Edina and Duluth East, both of which always draw interest.

So which one is better? They each have their strong points, so on balance I'm calling it a wash - they are both great opportunities to see some excellent high school hockey.

[HShockeywatcher]

Not Spring Lake Park...Right????

You are correct. I cannot change the poll anymore.

Made a few typos in the last couple days.

[BodyShots]

Don't Elk River, Maple Grove, and Centennial already play each other enough? Looks to be a NWSC tournament with a couple of throw ins.

My understanding is that if you don't win a game one year in the Schwans, you get moved down a bracket. So, some of these teams in the SLP tournament decided to leave the Schwans instead of moving down.

As for the comment on WBL. If you go back and look at the results of previous tournaments, you will see they are in the champions bracket quite often. For some reason, Sager skates the boys harder during the holiday break with the weight vests on, and the team usually responds well. Why he doesn't do this more often throughout the season befuddles me.

[HShockeywatcher]

Don't Elk River, Maple Grove, and Centennial already play each other enough? Looks to be a NWSC tournament with a couple of throw ins.

Yes, the normally would. Elk River and Maple Grove play each other in the first round and it looks as though they are using it as a conference game. (they only play one other time during the season)

In that respect, I would understand that if SLP lets them decide to play each other first and the conference allows them to use it as a conference game, it essentially opens up another game on their schedule.

Likewise, Jefferson and Moorhead play each other yearly; this year they meet in the first round and don't play each other during the season, essentially opening up another game on their schedule.

My understanding is that if you don't win a game one year in the Schwans, you get moved down a bracket. So, some of these teams in the SLP tournament decided to leave the Schwans instead of moving down.

I thought of this as well:
-Elk River's last year was 05-06 and went 1-1-1 in Silver
-Jefferson's last year was 06-07 and went 0-3 in Gold
-Moorhead's last year was 08-09 and went 0-3 in Gold
-Centennial's last year was 08-09 and went 1-2 in Gold (cons. champs)
-Maple Grove's last year was 08-09 and went 2-0-1 in Bronze (lost the tie)
-Benilde's last year was 08-09 and went 2-1 in Silver (lost to Wayzata in the final)
-Wayzata's last year was 08-09 and went 3-0 in Silver

-I can see that Jefferson and Moorhead may not have wanted to move down the years they left, but the Silver Cup still has good competition. -Elk River left and simply didn't play in a holiday tournament for the next two years.
-Centennial could've been in Gold last year.
-Maple Grove could've been either back in Bronze or probably in Silver with the teams that left.
-Wayzata for sure would've been in Gold last year and with others leaving, Benilde probably could've as well.

So a couple teams have left for that, but others clearly have not when they could stay. I'm curious if there is an administrative reason, they don't enjoy going to the X, or what it is, if anyone knows.

As for the comment on WBL. If you go back and look at the results of previous tournaments, you will see they are in the champions bracket quite often. For some reason, Sager skates the boys harder during the holiday break with the weight vests on, and the team usually responds well. Why he doesn't do this more often throughout the season befuddles me.

WBL
09-10 loss, win, loss, 6th place
08-09 win, tie (loss), loss, 4th place
07-08 win, loss, win, 3rd place
06-07 win, loss, loss, 4th place
05-06 win, loss, tie (not sure), 3rd/4th place
04-05 win, tie (win), win, 1st place
03-04 win, loss, win, 3rd place
02-03 loss, loss, win, 7th place

In the 8 years of the tournament, WBL has made the finals once. Their record in the finals is immaculate though.

[SPUDNUT]

Never thought about this before:

At Schwans, a team that goes 0-3 in Gold Div. gets moved down to Silver - same with Silver to Bronze. Does a team that goes 0-3 in Bronze get kicked out ?

[karl(east)]

Not Spring Lake Park...Right????

You are correct. I cannot change the poll anymore.

Made a few typos in the last couple days.

Fixed it.

I'm with MNHockeyFan...both are worth watching; the SLP Tourney has more top teams, while the Schwan Cup Gold is more balanced. I'll give a more thorough preview in next week's rankings.

[Guru20]

Teams did not leave the Schwans Cup because of certain divisions.
The biggest reason was price. Schwans Cup is very expensive, in my opinion far too expensive. I've heard numbers as high as Schwans Cup being 4 times more then the St Louis Park Tourney. Not sure of exact prices but I do know Schwans is quite a bit more.

Also a large benefit having all games at one rink, and all the same programs JV teams playing eachother at the same rink as the Varsity as is the case at St Louis Park.

Centennial, Elk River, Moorhead, and Jefferson may not be top 10 teams, but they are strong programs that will be near the top 20 pretty much every year, in good years will get into that top 10 range like Jefferson and Centennial last year. I think the teams that started St Louis Park last year knew what they were getting in terms of competition.

I was surprised to see Elk River and Maple Grove playing eachother 1st round again as they did last year, asked around to a few parents and found out that those 2 teams request to play eachother and use that as one of their 2 conference games. Allowed each of them to pickup an extra non conference game like Maple Grove adding Duluth East last year.

If it were my choice I would put my team into the St Louis Park Tournament.

[my2cents]

NT

[BodyShots]

As for the comment on WBL. If you go back and look at the results of previous tournaments, you will see they are in the champions bracket quite often. For some reason, Sager skates the boys harder during the holiday break with the weight vests on, and the team usually responds well. Why he doesn't do this more often throughout the season befuddles me.

WBL
09-10 loss, win, loss, 6th place
08-09 win, tie (loss), loss, 4th place
07-08 win, loss, win, 3rd place
06-07 win, loss, loss, 4th place
05-06 win, loss, tie (not sure), 3rd/4th place
04-05 win, tie (win), win, 1st place
03-04 win, loss, win, 3rd place
02-03 loss, loss, win, 7th place

In the 8 years of the tournament, WBL has made the finals once. Their record in the finals is immaculate though.

Championship bracket means they won their first game. 6 of the last 7 years isn't bad!

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

I don't understand why a team would make a holiday tournament game a conference game. Part of the purpose of playing in an invitational tournament is to play teams not on your schedule. It doesn't free up a game to be played against a non-conference opponent, your just robbing Peter to pay Paul. You're giving up a non-conference tournament game in favor of a conference game. Why not just skip the tournament all together and schedule three games against whoever you want? The only difference is you get some playoff atmosphere with a tournament.

[HShockeywatcher]

bodyshots, I suppose you are right. Should be a good first round game this year.

I don't understand why a team would make a holiday tournament game a conference game. Part of the purpose of playing in an invitational tournament is to play teams not on your schedule. It doesn't free up a game to be played against a non-conference opponent, your just robbing Peter to pay Paul. You're giving up a non-conference tournament game in favor of a conference game. Why not just skip the tournament all together and schedule three games against whoever you want? The only difference is you get some playoff atmosphere with a tournament.

If they are in the same tournament there is a possibility they play that team. Why not guarantee they play them and also add another game to their schedule? What you say is correct with the assumption they don't play each other in the tournament. This way, they for sure play and they get an additional non-conference game on their schedule. It sure would be a bummer for one of them to end up playing both of the teams in their conference and not have either count as a conference game.

the SLP Tourney has more top teams, while the Schwan Cup Gold is more balanced.

According to PageStat2;
St Louis Park has #1, #2, #12, #15, #19, #22, #27, #32. Average 16.25
Schwan's has #3, #4, #6, #9, #10, #11, #14, #16. Average 9.125

Not to pick on Karl, as many have said this. SLP has the 2 top teams and Schwan's is "more balanced" because all of their teams are good.
While SLP has the top 2, all of Schwan's are "better" than half of SLP's.

The original intent of the question was not on the quality of the teams playing this year but the quality of the tournaments all around.

[Doglover]

St. Louis Park tournament would be my choice. Good teams, consecutive days, so much cheaper. I've been to it the last couple years and it sure beats driving down to St. Paul.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

So if it's such a terrible thing to play a conference team in a tournament, get in a different tournament, get in the opposite bracket (making a meeting a one in four possibility), or schedule three non-conference opponents. If it is a quality conference opponent, what's the problem in playing them three times?[/quote]