Duluth East vs Duluth Marshall

[No Political Connections]

http://www.howiehanson.com/?p=49628

[east hockey]

Funny. He had me going until the part about the Soviets.

Hey, Howie...don't give up your day job. Does he have a day job?

Karl, thoughts? Heh heh.

Lee

[dueling21]

Funny. He had me going until the part about the Soviets.

Hey, Howie...don't give up your day job. Does he have a day job?

Karl, thoughts? Heh heh.

Lee

Is it April Fool's Day?!? I thought not...

[east hockey]

Funny. He had me going until the part about the Soviets.

Hey, Howie...don't give up your day job. Does he have a day job?

Karl, thoughts? Heh heh.

Lee

Is it April Fool's Day?!? I thought not...

Howie has done this before. Apparently he doesn't own a calendar.

Lee

[No Political Connections]

[EHSHack]

When hes not busy ripping stories from the Duluth News Tribune or throwing out propaganda for Denfeld, he just will randomly make things up.

[karl(east)]

The link now appears to be broken. Sad; for a moment I thought Howie was trying to revive his career as a hockey commentator, which would have entertained me for a bit.

What did he decide to make up this time around?

[east hockey]

The link now appears to be broken. Sad; for a moment I thought Howie was trying to revive his career as a hockey commentator, which would have entertained me for a bit.

What did he decide to make up this time around?

To say he was trying to revive his career as a hockey commentator is assuming he had such a career in the first place.

Basically it was East and Marshall facing off outside followed by Central/Denfeld playing the Soviets U-18 team.

Lee

[MNHockeyFan]

Pardon the ignorance, but can anyone enlighten me why these two schools do not routinely play each other? Way back when, and I mean way back when, I know they had some very competitive games against one another.

[karl(east)]

To say he was trying to revive his career as a hockey commentator is assuming he had such a career in the first place.

Good point.

Pardon the ignorance, but can anyone enlighten me why these two schools do not routinely play each other? Way back when, and I mean way back when, I know they had some very competitive games against one another.

As I understand it, this is East's way of protesting Marshall's refusal to opt up to AA.

From a Marshall perspective, East is afraid of losing to an A team.

It's more or less the same story with East-Hermantown.

[MNHockeyFan]

As I understand it, this is East's way of protesting Marshall's refusal to opt up to AA.

If true, this is kind of a poor argument in that Marshall has not won a State Tournament even at the A level (correct me if I'm wrong).

[7A22A]

This subject comes up early every year. Don't see how East wanting Marshall to go up to AA holds water. And Marshall going up doesn't seem feasible as they don't have the numbers of other private schools, year in and year out. I would say the real reason is the hard feelings of East losing players to Marshall historically and a potential loss would certainly not help. Not that a loss would have come in the last couple years.

[stpaul]

There are schools that should be playing rivalry games with each other every year. East-Marshall is one of those games. Cretin-DH - Hill-Murray is another. Obviously there are behind the scenes reasons. Somebody offended somebody sometime ago.

[observer]

Breck has had some difficulty scheduling AA games as well. Last season they could have defeated several AA schools if given the chance. It's viewed as a no win by the AA schools.

[karl(east)]

As I understand it, this is East's way of protesting Marshall's refusal to opt up to AA.

If true, this is kind of a poor argument in that Marshall has not won a State Tournament even at the A level (correct me if I'm wrong).

No, they haven't, though they did finish 2nd three years in a row from 06-08.

Some history: East dropped out of the Lake Superior Conference after the 98-99 season in an effort to beef up the schedule after going 59-4 in the conference over the previous few years. They dropped most of the teams in the conference, with the exception of Cloquet (the only other AA team), the other Duluth publics (the district would certainly have frowned upon an effort to drop them), and Superior. Though upsets certainly could--and did--happen (as those 4 losses show), the dropped teams were not serious, consistent threats to East at the time.

The East argument still frames this as AA vs. A, and there is some evidence to back that up--East didn't drop Cloquet, the LSC's other AA team, which wasn't any better than Hermantown back in the late 90s. East had pulled so far ahead of the pack that they found most of their old opponents unimportant to the goals of the program--the juice had gone out of the rivalries. East also assumed their utter dominance would continue. I'll admit there was probably some hubris at work there; dynasties don't last forever, and often sew the seeds of their own collapse--the overload of talent at East, or perhaps some disillusionment with what was supposed to be a hockey mecca, probably fueled the rise of Marshall. (Other things contributed, of course--Dave Esse's success at Cloquet took East down a notch, the hiring and firing of Randolph led to some uncertainty, and the coaching staffs at Hermantown and DM deserve a lot of credit, too.)

I wasn't following East hockey intently in 1999; perhaps Lee or someone else could give a better account of the mindset around the program, and in relation to its old opponents. Things changed over time, of course, but that decision can't be undone overnight--of course the LSC teams East dropped feel slighted, and ever since have taken a rather combative tone. So the East response has been, "if you're really that offended and want to play us that badly, come join us in AA." And I will definitely agree that players leaving East for Marshall and Hermantown don't help the cause, either. This argument also had more weight behind it back when East was a class A school that opted up--"we're doing it despite declining enrollment and mixed success by our standards, so there's no reason you can't step up either." (With the closure of Duluth Central, East is back to being a natural AA school.)

Will they ever schedule each other again? Perhaps after the current coaching staffs have moved on; it's hard to tell just how deep these disagreements run. But as observer notes, the refusal to schedule A schools is hardly unique to the Duluth area, so it may carry on.

Alright, history lesson over--to understand the conflict, you have to understand East's position in the hockey world in 1999. And thanks to Lee, since I pilfered all my knowledge about the late 90s from his archives.

[MNHockeyFan]

Thanks for the history lesson, it makes more sense now. Just too bad the "powers that be" prevented what could have been a great rivalry from developing. I'm sure there would have been some intense battles (especially from 06-08 ) and the kids would have had great fun playing in them. With Marshall having slipped some in the past few years, no doubt East would now be the heavy favorite.

[Hockey North]

With Marshall having slipped some in the past few years, no doubt East would now be the heavy favorite.

Give it a couple years and I think you will see the opposite.

[MNHockeyFan]

Give it a couple years and I think you will see the opposite.

Hope you're right! Would be nice to see East get some competition up there - even nicer if they would start playing each other again.

[interestedbystander]

With Marshall having slipped some in the past few years, no doubt East would now be the heavy favorite.

Give it a couple years and I think you will see the opposite.

Please elaborate

[HawkeyPower]

Could be better recruiting that will help Marshall.

[shooter803]

With the Duluth school district going through some tough consolidation there has been an influx of students to Marshall (even from the East side of town). Marshall has always seemed to draw well from the Laker Youth program but not East - seems to be a group of hockey players at that 7,8 & 9th grade enrolled that will be playing Peewee/Bantams - I agree give it 2 yrs or so & Marshall could compete again

[wheresthepuck]

Karl- somewhate accurate, but very selective memory with your history lesson.

The real history lesson for special viewers before Lee locks it out.

In 1998 Duluth East beat Marshall at the DECC 6-3. A drastic change from when East was whipping Marshall 21-0. Marshall also beat Cloquet, Hermantown and Denfeld that year. East Coaches were not on the bench for that particular game as they were scouting Hill-Murray in the cities. (Check the chronological order of archived games.) Shortly there-after the Mars Lakeview Arena was built on Marshall's campus.

In the previous year, Hermantown beat Duluth East at the DECC with John Francisco to win the Conference. A grass roots effort like no other began to evolve in Hermantown and youth programs grew leaps and bounds.

In 1999, East dropped out of Conference because Mike no longer wanted to play Two Harbors, Silver Bay, Proctor etc, but more importantly because he viewed Hermantown and particularly Marshall (lose more players) as threatening to his program. So it was convenient at the time to pull out. Obviously.

Since the departure, Hermantown and Marshall were regularly doing well in the Single A State Tournament and would-be very worthy back-yard opponents for the Hounds.

Names like Radovich, Bradley, Huttel, Krauses, Schmidts, Hardy, representing Hermantown and for Marshall: Connolly's, Kozlak, Bordson, Pauls, Mahoneys, Gutsch, etc. Not to mention the strong supporting casts with plenty of depth.

No, Mike wanted nothing to do with these "Single A" teams. Unfortunate, because the entire 2000 Decade would have been very, very, interesting.

Taking nothing away from East players or teams, because they were truly great.

But a need to set the record straight here KARL.

And now you know the REST of the story.

Paul Harvey

[east hockey]

Karl- somewhate accurate, but very selective memory with your history lesson.

The real history lesson for special viewers before Lee locks it out.

In 1998 Duluth East beat Marshall at the DECC 6-3. A drastic change from when East was whipping Marshall 21-0. Marshall also beat Cloquet, Hermantown and Denfeld that year. East Coaches were not on the bench for that particular game as they were scouting Hill-Murray in the cities. (Check the chronological order of archived games.) Shortly there-after the Mars Lakeview Arena was built on Marshall's campus.

In the previous year, Hermantown beat Duluth East at the DECC with John Francisco to win the Conference. A grass roots effort like no other began to evolve in Hermantown and youth programs grew leaps and bounds.

In 1999, East dropped out of Conference because Mike no longer wanted to play Two Harbors, Silver Bay, Proctor etc, but more importantly because he viewed Hermantown and particularly Marshall (lose more players) as threatening to his program. So it was convenient at the time to pull out. Obviously.

Since the departure, Hermantown and Marshall were regularly doing well in the Single A State Tournament and would-be very worthy back-yard opponents for the Hounds.

Names like Radovich, Bradley, Huttel, Krauses, Schmidts, Hardy, representing Hermantown and for Marshall: Connolly's, Kozlak, Bordson, Pauls, Mahoneys, Gutsch, etc. Not to mention the strong supporting casts with plenty of depth.

No, Mike wanted nothing to do with these "Single A" teams. Unfortunate, because the entire 2000 Decade would have been very, very, interesting.

Taking nothing away from East players or teams, because they were truly great.

But a need to set the record straight here KARL.

And now you know the REST of the story.

Paul Harvey

Fortunately, the real Paul Harvey could report.

Lee

[northwoods oldtimer]

I would drive over to watch DM - East or Hermantown - East those would be good battles.

[DuluthHockeyBoy]

I think this is really quite simple. The "A" vs. "AA" argument works quite nicely as a convenient excuse for DE, but in reality I believe it is all about not doing anything that might help strengthen Marshall's hockey program, and position them to better compete for upcoming players.

If you are inside the Duluth hockey world- especially the Duluth East hockey world, you know that the competition for kids coming into the high school ranks is fierce. In most cases (not all, but I would say most), DE holds the edge for the better players because they play in AA. If a kid is good and he knows he will play at DE, in most cases DE will get that kid. If DE was playing Marshall every year, and Marshall was competitive with them (as they would have been many years in the last 10), Marshall starts to look like a better option to the depth of talent typically available to DE.

If you look at DE schedule, while they do traditionally schedule top opponents in the state, they also play teams like Cambridge-Isanti, Princeton, Superior, Rochester teams each year. No disrespect to these teams, but it would be hard to argue that these teams are better competition for DE than Marshall would have been over the past 10 years. If it is a matter of not wanting to replace a game against a top state power with a game against Marshall, then dump the Superior game. DE vs. Marshall would be a fan favorite, and one of the most hyped/best attended games of the year I'm sure.

I can see why you don't do it if your Randolph. Your team has everything to lose, and nothing to gain. Your team is playing not to lose, and the other team (with nothing to lose) is playing to win. We all know how that can turn out. If Marshall shows they can compete against you and play at your level, more kids/parents may look at going there. Your very deep pool of players gets more competition and thins out, and they could build a program that competes with you even more consistantly. So there is nothing to gain for you or your program to start playing this game each year. And you have a built-in excuse: not AA and you can say it wouldn't be competitive without having to prove it.

Of course, this is all wrong. Its high school hockey, and what makes it great are rivalries, enthusiastic kids, pep bands, bragging rights, cinderella stories and upsets. These games could be everything we love about HS hockey. Every fan wants it. Everyone who knows hockey knows it would be a competitive game (maybe not every year, but most. And DE would have had their hands full with a few of their teams over the last 10 years). Apparently its more about the coach than high school hockey.

I would say if you think you are that good and they wouldn't be competitive, then put them on your schedule for 5 years in place of Superior- kick their butts and end the debate.