Squirt 35 Game Clarification

yeahyeahyeah · Post by **yeahyeahyeah** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:09 pm

I know this has been discussed previously but I dont have the patience to search for it. At Squirts teams are allowed 35 games. Obviously formal scrimmages, league Games and tournament games count. My question regards tryout scrimmages. Our Squirt team has been asked to participate as an opponent for a tryout. There will be no referees - coaches on ice, no score board, and it is supposed to be used as a coaching tool as well.
I have not been able to find a clear cut answer on whether or not this will be charged against the 35.
I am definitely NOT trying to squeeze more games in just trying to follow the rules.
Thanks in advance

High Off The Glass · Post by **High Off The Glass** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:15 pm

Does NOT count towards your 35 game limit. Your team is not formally formed yet and not registered with the district or USA hockey.

mnhcp · Post by **mnhcp** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:17 pm

I think he said "HIS TEAM" will scrimmage an opponent that's "NOT A TEAM yet"? If that's the case I'd say it's a scrimmage for "HIS TEAM" and "NOT A SCRIMMAGE FOR THE OTHER"? My take would be it counts against him and not the other.

But I think last year they loosened up the def of a controlled scrimmage abit (at least in our district)?

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:19 pm

Check with your district director, but it sounds like a non-game and would be considered as such in District 16.

QuackerTracker · Post by **QuackerTracker** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:05 pm

This is a controlled scrimage and does not count towards the total games played. This is as long as coaches from both teams are on the ice and the clock is not used.

hiptzech · Post by **hiptzech** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:32 pm

QuackerTracker wrote:This is a controlled scrimage and does not count towards the total games played. This is as long as coaches from both teams are on the ice and the clock is not used.

Ref Minn Hock Handbook
http://s3.amazonaws.com/assets.ngin.com ... 9-2010.pdf

yeahyeahyeah · Post by **yeahyeahyeah** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:29 pm

Does this make sense? this is from the handbook:
Really all they are saying is that they are allowed.....AND count toward the 35 game total? Gee Thanks for allowing us to coach our kids! I am beginning to think Minnesota Hockey is a farce. How and why woudl this be considered a "Game". Ridiculous.

H. SQUIRT HOCKEY – MH strongly encourages the skill development of all players especially at the entry levels. Therefore, the following is effective for the squirt level.
1. No league standings shall be kept.
2. Limit games (league/ tournament/exhibition games) to a maximum of 35 per season. Each game
played in a tournament shall be counted as one game. Controlled scrimmages count toward the total of 35, but must meet the definition of a controlled scrimmage as outlined in the paragraph in the Playing Rules section entitled "Exhibition Games and Controlled Scrimmages."

M. Exhibition Games and Controlled Scrimmages

2. Coaches-on-Ice scrimmages or “controlled scrimmages” are allowed as a coaching tool for teaching
position play and to address various game situations. The following criteria identify minimum requirements for Coaches-On-Ice Scrimmages. All of the criteria must be met for the event to be considered a Coaches-On-Ice scrimmage. a. At least one coach from each team must be on the ice for the purpose of instruction.
b. No official scorekeeper, timekeeper or “game clock” can be used. c. Teams can switch ends at some point, if desired. d. The event is conducted as a practice, with the coaches stopping play from time to time to make
observations and provide instruction on player positioning, etc.

trippedovertheblueline · Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:30 pm

hiptzech wrote:
QuackerTracker wrote:This is a controlled scrimage and does not count towards the total games played. This is as long as coaches from both teams are on the ice and the clock is not used.
Ref Minn Hock Handbook
http://s3.amazonaws.com/assets.ngin.com ... 9-2010.pdf

box. careful, better yet just don't post the scrimmage on your team website. If a squirt team plays on saturday afternoon outside at the park vs another association why does it not count? Why don't coaches have to wear helmets on the ice outside but do inside?

sorno82 · Post by **sorno82** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:39 pm

Should not count. It is a tryout. Every association has several tryout scrimmages. Whether internal or external should not matter. What is the difference if there are 30 B players scrimmaging each other to make a B1 team over a B2 team vs 20 players scrimmaging another association to make the A team.

Teams have not been established and there is no official roster yet-unless it is a fake tryout and the real tryout was in August

mnhcp · Post by **mnhcp** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:31 pm

yeahyeahyeah wrote:I know this has been discussed previously but I dont have the patience to search for it. At Squirts teams are allowed 35 games. Obviously formal scrimmages, league Games and tournament games count. My question regards tryout scrimmages. Our Squirt team has been asked to participate as an opponent for a tryout.

Do you need to rephrase your question? You say "OUR TEAM". Is it a team or not a team yet?

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:59 am

elliott70 PostPosted: 29 Sep 2009 19:19 Post subject:

Check with your district director, but it sounds like a non-game and would be considered as such in District 16.

I would follow elliott 70 advice.
Everybody can throw their thoughts around and while nice the final authority is the District Director, check with him. They have the final authority. If it by chance did count and a fine was issued to you, I doubt the people here that gave you the advice that it would not count would help pay the fine and could not serve any suspension for you.

nobama · Post by **nobama** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:40 am

Is that how Roseau got away with playing more games than the 35 games at the squirt level ? Then posting the scores on the website ? Then going on with the same group of kids and winning the pee Wee state title

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:46 am

careful, better yet just 1.don't post the scrimmage on your team website. If a squirt team 2.plays on saturday afternoon outside at the park vs another association why does it not count? 3.Why don't coaches have to wear helmets on the ice outside but do inside?

A couple of questions...
1. Why advocate not playing by the rules? Is it not easier to call the DD and do what is necessary to make it not a game.
2. Why would you think this is not a game?
3. No, coaches do need to wear a helmet anytime they are on any ice and involved in a MH activity.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:49 am

nobama wrote:Is that how Roseau got away with playing more games than the 35 games at the squirt level ? Then posting the scores on the website ? Then going on with the same group of kids and winning the pee Wee state title

Roseau does an excellent job of following the rules. If there is a problem they always call in advance to get a ruling.
Sorry nobama, you are wrong.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:54 am

Isn't the subjective interpretation of the rules by 12 DDs part of the problem? A thread was run regarding a squirt program that was rumored to receive some sanctions, and post after post indicated that other squirt programs were being allowed the same behavior, or the DD was flat out turning a blind eye.

silentbutdeadly3139 · Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:11 am

InigoMontoya wrote:Isn't the subjective interpretation of the rules by 12 DDs part of the problem? A thread was run regarding a squirt program that was rumored to receive some sanctions, and post after post indicated that other squirt programs were being allowed the same behavior, or the DD was flat out turning a blind eye.

It wasn't the same behavior. As indicated here the DD provided direction but sanctioned program violated the rule, the other associations were within the rules set by district director.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:27 am

InigoMontoya wrote:Isn't the subjective interpretation of the rules by 12 DDs part of the problem? A thread was run regarding a squirt program that was rumored to receive some sanctions, and post after post indicated that other squirt programs were being allowed the same behavior, or the DD was flat out turning a blind eye.

If they are indeed subjective, yes it is a problem.
Most districts that I have knowledge of have basic policies, procedures, rules.
The DD is the ultimate authority, most act with some sort of governing board. The reasoning is quite simple for this. D1 and D6 have distinct differences, as do northern districts 11 and 15.

nobama · Post by **nobama** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:33 am

elliott70 wrote:
nobama wrote:Is that how Roseau got away with playing more games than the 35 games at the squirt level ? Then posting the scores on the website ? Then going on with the same group of kids and winning the pee Wee state title
Roseau does an excellent job of following the rules. If there is a problem they always call in advance to get a ruling.
Sorry nobama, you are wrong.

Maybe my math is bad but I see they did it again with last years Squirt a team as well...... 41 games listed on the website... Is this called the secret Roseau formula...

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:01 am

Your math is not bad.

A District 6 squirt A team will play:
district games - about 18 games
tourneys - about 3 (a couple with pool play - assuming no Fargo) would be around 11 games
district tourney - champ has an opportunity to play 6 games

Of course that is 35 games, so we know they won't scrimmage the Fire, and we won't see them as part of Roseau's 41-game schedule.

It is a simple fact that there are squirt teams in the state that play more than 35. We can all pretend they don't, but your math is not bad.

yeahyeahyeah · Post by **yeahyeahyeah** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:50 am

Sorry I did not clarify, yes our team will have a finalized roster. I was not trying to hide that just poor composition on my part. The teams our team has been asked to participate against will be in tryout mode.
My goal is to make sure the team follows the rule but if I read the MH rule correctly then this would be considered a "game" and count.
Now I hear D16 would not consider this a countable game which leads one to believe that Districts can make up the rules as they go? I am not trying to get anyone in hot water mind you only noting what I believe to be facts based on the replies to this question.
So does that mean that a district can say "up yours" when it comes to the participation policy and other rules too?

TriedThat2 · Post by **TriedThat2** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:17 pm

Mark,
Can you answer how Roseau's Squirt A team played 41 games?

hiptzech · Post by **hiptzech** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:23 pm

elliott70 wrote:
hiptzech wrote: careful, better yet just 1.don't post the scrimmage on your team website. If a squirt team 2.plays on saturday afternoon outside at the park vs another association why does it not count? 3.Why don't coaches have to wear helmets on the ice outside but do inside?

A couple of questions...
1. Why advocate not playing by the rules? Is it not easier to call the DD and do what is necessary to make it not a game.
2. Why would you think this is not a game?
3. No, coaches do need to wear a helmet anytime they are on any ice and involved in a MH activity.

Hey Elliot,

Can you do me a favor? Please modify your post, you are quoting me and I did not say the things that are listed as my quote. Normally, I could care less however I get on this site and make comments about rules enforcement and interpatation...It doesn't look good from my perspective...I ref, and don't need to be miss-quoted about rules violations. I am sure if you go back you will see these are not my words. Thanks in advance, I do a good enough job getting myself into trouble.

C-dad · Post by **C-dad** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:46 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:Your math is not bad.

A District 6 squirt A team will play:
district games - about 18 games
tourneys - about 3 (a couple with pool play - assuming no Fargo) would be around 11 games
district tourney - champ has an opportunity to play 6 games

Of course that is 35 games, so we know they won't scrimmage the Fire, and we won't see them as part of Roseau's 41-game schedule.

It is a simple fact that there are squirt teams in the state that play more than 35. We can all pretend they don't, but your math is not bad.

One clarification is that the district 6 tourney in the past has only counted for 2 games (IIRC) against the total since teams couldn't forecast how many they would play. So that gives them 31 so 4 available to scrimmage the Fire.

silentbutdeadly3139 · Post by **silentbutdeadly3139** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:02 pm

C-dad wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:Your math is not bad.

A District 6 squirt A team will play:
district games - about 18 games
tourneys - about 3 (a couple with pool play - assuming no Fargo) would be around 11 games
district tourney - champ has an opportunity to play 6 games

Of course that is 35 games, so we know they won't scrimmage the Fire, and we won't see them as part of Roseau's 41-game schedule.

It is a simple fact that there are squirt teams in the state that play more than 35. We can all pretend they don't, but your math is not bad.
One clarification is that the district 6 tourney in the past has only counted for 2 games (IIRC) against the total since teams couldn't forecast how many they would play. So that gives them 31 so 4 available to scrimmage the Fire.

But they listed they played 41 last year - 3 in district so count that as 2 and they played 40.

mnhcp · Post by **mnhcp** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:11 pm

Addressing the teams last year that went over: In years past it was 35 games maximum counting the District Playoffs in our district. Just last 08-09 season it was changed to 35 games and District Playoffs no longer counted against the 35 game maximum. Maybe this is the scenario which one of you is referring to or similar?

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