12U's going to JV

[Pens4]

What a disturbing trend I am seeing with the school programs actively recruiting the young 7th and 8th graders to play for them. I am talking about recruiting not only for varisity but touting girls that will be relinguished to the JV team. The private schools are notarious for this but it is happening even at the larger programs.

Let me be clear for anyone contemplating this as a possible route for their daughter. Girls Junior varsity hockey has a season that starts in November and ends in Febuary and in between has not one significant games or tournaments or competitive atmosphere anytime in between. Imagine the skill growth your 7th grade daughter will experience while playing in 19 games all starting at 5pm. At least she will have an 18 year old senior teammate to drive her to the team meeting after Saturdays Varsity game.

Why are parents so eager to push their kids to a place they will eventually arrive at anyways. Why not let the kids enjoy the level they are at....all players eventually reach a place in hockey when they fail...why do we hurry our kids into those situations. Let them arrive in time. Shame on the JV coaches that are recruiting these girls at such young ages...the drivers-ed teacher that coached our JV team in HS must be turning in his grave.

[observer]

That is bad news and not a good decision by the coaches or the families.

The quoted reasons for moving to high school include a couple of potential real reasons. 1st is cost and that could be legitimate. 2nd is time and location of practices which includes transportation. 3rd is to be part of the high school experience.

But to Pens4's point the girls will take a significant hit developmentally. What about U14? Here's the reason these coaches are doing this. Historically, schools have had complete varsity and JV teams with 2 coaches. As hockey numbers shrink all of a sudden the coach doesn't have enough for two full teams so girls start playing some of both varsity and JV. This confuses practices as 10 girls play for both teams. And, it is a job loss for the JV coach if the JV team is eliminated.

Another force in high school is a young player may have a chance to play for another community based youth association if her's doesn't offer the appropriate level team. But, don't think she can just wander over to another high school and play if her high school doesn't offer the appropriate level of play. So the high schools are foolishly suggesting JV is a good choice. The boys teams are doing it too with bantam players. Frankly, they're hurting themselves as the girls would ultimately be much stronger players, and the high school team have more future success, if they play 2 years of U12 and 2 years of U14. U14 has been a challenge for several years now but this is extremely bad news regarding U12 players.

High School coaches should be told to stay away or lose any favorable connection they currently have with nearby youth associations.

[Hockeydaddy]

Haven't seen this yet here.

Is this going on in EP? Edina?

[Pens4]

We lost one EP girl and I know that Lakeville North & South 12 players are getting some pressures to move on to HS. I don't even think they should talk to the 14's either.

I love desire to play for a school and what it represents but this will ruin the momentum that has been created at the girls youth level. MN high school hockey is not interested in development of players for the next level. They do not believe in specialization and hence the season is very short. By taking the talented girls at younger ages, they will stymie the growth they would otherwise receive with the expanded schedule of 12's and 14's.

[puckboy]

I bet cost is a huge factor for some families- I bet a family would say 2-3K by playing JV if you include mileage, hotels, food, etc that is all part of youth hockey and not jv.

[ilike2score]

I have a kid in this going into 8th ghrade dilemna. It comes down to school size. If you are a large school you wait to play jv until 10th grade. If you are a small school you play jv at 7 or 8 grade. I will say this...my kids have learned more and have had more fun playing at the higher level. high School coaches get paid for a reason. And it is worth it. The sooner you can get your middle schooler to the hgh school leve and out of the local voluntary youth level the better

[Mac15]

I have a kid in this going into 8th ghrade dilemna. It comes down to school size. If you are a large school you wait to play jv until 10th grade. If you are a small school you play jv at 7 or 8 grade. I will say this...my kids have learned more and have had more fun playing at the higher level. high School coaches get paid for a reason. And it is worth it. The sooner you can get your middle schooler to the hgh school leve and out of the local voluntary youth level the better

If others in your program feel this way, your youth program needs to recruit better coaches. How can you develop the skills of the young players without good coaching? The high school coaches can't turn coal into diamonds in 3-5 years.

I feel fortunate that I can select our girls youth coaches from a very solid group. We have two former Division I players, one former high school coach, and at least 10 that played hockey after their high school varsity careers were done (Jrs, Club, D3 etc). Quite a few of them have over 10 years coaching experience and several of them have over 20 years.

We also have to deal with the lure of the high school team for the middle school girls. I have been around the girls program for 15 years and I have seen very few young girls become good by going to high school early. Playing in parts (or none) of 25-31 games can't compare to playing a regular shift in 30-50 games. With no disrespect intended to the players I have not seen very many Good JV games with the exception that occasionally I have seen a standout player in the mix. Our association expects to lose a few girls this year and $$ is a big factor. It's unfortunate that it is a deciding factor rather than "what will make my child a better player".

[Pens4]

I have a kid in this going into 8th ghrade dilemna. It comes down to school size. If you are a large school you wait to play jv until 10th grade. If you are a small school you play jv at 7 or 8 grade. I will say this...my kids have learned more and have had more fun playing at the higher level. high School coaches get paid for a reason. And it is worth it. The sooner you can get your middle schooler to the hgh school leve and out of the local voluntary youth level the better

MAC15,

This is the thought process that is permeating through a large share of the girls youth programs and its initiated from parents in similoiar situations as you. It comes from a belief that playing for the JV at a young age is a badge of honor. I can think of a dozen 12U teams last year that would have beat 90% of the JV teams in the state. In fact, I can think of 3 14U teams last year that would have beat 50% of the varsity teams in the state.

It is the average girl that is getting hurt by this thought process. The superstars will always land on their feet. The superstar will play their 30 varsity games and then play 50 more games in the 2 Nations league during the summer.....BUT......the average 12U player goes to the JV team and her developement rest on a 90 day season. And please don't be so naive to think that a HS Coach is validated because some administrator decides to budget $2500 to a substitute teacher.

[royals dad]

This is the thought process that is permeating through a large share of the girls youth programs and its initiated from parents in similoiar situations as you. It comes from a belief that playing for the JV at a young age is a badge of honor. I can think of a dozen 12U teams last year that would have beat 90% of the JV teams in the state. In fact, I can think of 3 14U teams last year that would have beat 50% of the varsity teams in the state.

It is the average girl that is getting hurt by this thought process. The superstars will always land on their feet. The superstar will play their 30 varsity games and then play 50 more games in the 2 Nations league during the summer.....BUT......the average 12U player goes to the JV team and her developement rest on a 90 day season. And please don't be so naive to think that a HS Coach is validated because some administrator decides to budget $2500 to a substitute teacher.

Pens,

As a parent of a girl who has been through, or more aptly is going through this I have to say you are just really wrong on this topic. It is a very individual and personal decision for a player and a family. There are positives and negatives but you have some really generalized statements that are plain and simply not true. I watched most of my schools JV and varsity games last year. Including the Abra Tournament in Edina (yes JV in a tourney). With our regular (no Sundays, done at 6 PM weekdays) schedule I have also had the opportunity to see a number of 12 and 14 games. There was not a U12 team in the state last year that could have skated JV, I did go watch a Tonka 14 game after a similar thread last year, and IMO they could not have competed with any of the JV teams I saw from the Lake, Clasic Lake, or North Suburban. We had some great games in the year including a couple of shoot outs at the Maple Grove tourney (yes another JV tourney). We had three blow outs, 2 for and 1 against but most games were close and hard fought.

I really don't get your 90 day season comment either, you know better. From other posts it seems to me your an Ice Cats dad. None of these kids skate one season, in fact the HS programs have summer training and usually a scrimage team (velocity, Os...) then do captins practice, and then hit the 90 day season. When is not hockey season any more.

Last year was our first in many without a travel hockey player (1 JV and 2 weekend mites). We had more family dinners and nights at the park in one winter then the previous 6. My oldest had a good season and a good (if not once in a lifetime) experience. I don't have any crazy ideas that she will ever earn a dime from hockey but she really enjoys it and she gets great grades so I am happy. For every kid like my daughter who had a good year with this, there is probably another who didn't. It is an individual decision.

If you are a parent in the process of making this decision talk to the coachs, parents, players, captins. Do your homework, don't expect much help making the decision from either your youth or HS coach they both are worried about thier team more than your daughter. In one weekend this summer I had a current Olympian tell me I was wrong to have my daughter skate up, and then a minute latter a parent of an Olympian tell me I would be wrong to have my daughter skate her age. You take it all in and hope your steering the ship ok.

[Pens4]

This is the thought process that is permeating through a large share of the girls youth programs and its initiated from parents in similoiar situations as you. It comes from a belief that playing for the JV at a young age is a badge of honor. I can think of a dozen 12U teams last year that would have beat 90% of the JV teams in the state. In fact, I can think of 3 14U teams last year that would have beat 50% of the varsity teams in the state.

It is the average girl that is getting hurt by this thought process. The superstars will always land on their feet. The superstar will play their 30 varsity games and then play 50 more games in the 2 Nations league during the summer.....BUT......the average 12U player goes to the JV team and her developement rest on a 90 day season. And please don't be so naive to think that a HS Coach is validated because some administrator decides to budget $2500 to a substitute teacher.

Pens,

As a parent of a girl who has been through, or more aptly is going through this I have to say you are just really wrong on this topic. It is a very individual and personal decision for a player and a family. There are positives and negatives but you have some really generalized statements that are plain and simply not true. I watched most of my schools JV and varsity games last year. Including the Abra Tournament in Edina (yes JV in a tourney). With our regular (no Sundays, done at 6 PM weekdays) schedule I have also had the opportunity to see a number of 12 and 14 games. There was not a U12 team in the state last year that could have skated JV, I did go watch a Tonka 14 game after a similar thread last year, and IMO they could not have competed with any of the JV teams I saw from the Lake, Clasic Lake, or North Suburban. We had some great games in the year including a couple of shoot outs at the Maple Grove tourney (yes another JV tourney). We had three blow outs, 2 for and 1 against but most games were close and hard fought.

I really don't get your 90 day season comment either, you know better. From other posts it seems to me your an Ice Cats dad. None of these kids skate one season, in fact the HS programs have summer training and usually a scrimage team (velocity, Os...) then do captins practice, and then hit the 90 day season. When is not hockey season any more.

Last year was our first in many without a travel hockey player (1 JV and 2 weekend mites). We had more family dinners and nights at the park in one winter then the previous 6. My oldest had a good season and a good (if not once in a lifetime) experience. I don't have any crazy ideas that she will ever earn a dime from hockey but she really enjoys it and she gets great grades so I am happy. For every kid like my daughter who had a good year with this, there is probably another who didn't. It is an individual decision.

If you are a parent in the process of making this decision talk to the coachs, parents, players, captins. Do your homework, don't expect much help making the decision from either your youth or HS coach they both are worried about thier team more than your daughter. In one weekend this summer I had a current Olympian tell me I was wrong to have my daughter skate up, and then a minute latter a parent of an Olympian tell me I would be wrong to have my daughter skate her age. You take it all in and hope your steering the ship ok.

Royals Dad,

I knew a parent of a JV or Varity player would take offense to my blanket statements regarding the talent level of the JV programs. I apoligize and no disrespected was ever intended for the woman who play at the JV level and are trying to develope their skill level while playing with their peers. I am not sure what school your daughter plays for but if it is in the Lake conference then no....the 12's do not beat any of those teams.....BUT...none of those teams have 12 year olds on them.

Remember the point of the thread. I say with no uncertain terms that a 12 year old should not go play for their JV team. Nothing you have said changes my mind of that. A JV team that takes a 12 year old is a bad program.

Also, the season is 90 days. It starts in November and ends in February. The summer is not the High School season. To rationalize that the JV season is okay because I can get good coaching in the summer makes no sense.

My goal is not to bash JV hockey (I played a year of it myself), my goal is to help parents who have this mis-conception that the ultimate goal needs to be to get into a HS program as soon as possible. I am trying to tell them that their daughters developement and the future growth of girls hockey is negatively impacted by this trend.

Having daughters at that level; Do you think 12 year old's should play JV hockey?

[royals dad]

Having daughters at that level; Do you think 12 year old's should play JV hockey?

Mine had a great experience in one of the best programs in the state. I can think of three others girls that I noted last year all with top porgrams that had a good experience at JV. Blanket statements don't work, if a girl left your team wish her well and be supportive. I am sorry if it costs you some U12 hardware but U12 hardware fades pretty quickly anyway. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else that it is a good or bad decision but i would try and convince them that they should not listen to blanket general statements presented as facts.

The summer program is one key, games are the fun part but sharing the practice ice with highly skilled players can be a big positive. And no offense but the coaching she had last year was the best she has ever had hands down (granted we have a great staff).

How many U10s skate at U12? With the state of U14 right now if you have a 7th grader who has the option of a 3rd year of U12, a U14 team, playing with boys, or a JV team. How can you blame them for at least looking at thier options. I talked to many parents this summer who wish they had options but have a school or a conference rule that doesn't allow it. Again you need to go in eyes wide open either on or off ice it may be a huge mistake to skate up or skate boys but it might just be a minor mistake to stay with your age group. So take care.

Pens - You have been around a few years, how balanced is U12A? I know you have a very good U12 team, how many close games will you have this season? How many will be 6 goal or more margins? How much focus will you get in your Febuary 9 PM weeknight practices? Girls youth Hockey in Minnesota is fabulous but it has some issues as well. I wish people were more concerned with finding a good fit for each player than winning at the youth level.

As for the badge of honor thing, people do get hung up on it, people do instantly judge me about it. People ask about the locker room but very few ask anything else. I'm proud of my daughter and what she has acomplished so far, her goal is to play D1 some day. I hope she makes it but it doesn't change my college savings plan. For now it is enough for me that she still loves the game and is motivated by it on and off the ice.

[Night Train]

One thing I'll add is that each situation is so uniquely different it's really hard to generalize. If the youth program is strong I'd suggest staying with youth. But, almost all youth girls teams have a wide range of ability. There are probably only a few where every player on the A team is truly A level. Probably even fewer where the B team is truly all B. Having said that, JV usually has a broad range of talent too. Sometimes the youth coaches are outstanding and high school JV coaches are not. Sometimes it's reversed. Sometimes the young girls are mature, big and strong. Sometimes they're small, weak and scared.

But I don't think HS coaches should be poaching girls off of youth teams just so they can get to some magical number of 2 complete teams. In theory that could be 40 skaters and there just aren't that many single youth associations graduating 15 girls a year from U14. Even if they did it's unlikely they're all headed to the same high school.

At the end of the day it's all about recruiting 4-5-6 year olds into your association. Strong skating 12 year olds don't fall from trees so unless you've recruited them young, and developed them, your not going to have enough later. Without 20-30 girls at each birthyear (July 1-June 30) and maybe only a few associations in the entire state have that, the problem of high schools without enough girls to field 2 full teams will continue.

So, it's sad but inevitable. Every situation is entirely different than the next. With a strong coach, and a decent number of good players, I'd say stick with youth because your daughter will never get that experience, time with girls her age, again. Development will be better with youth as they have a longer season, more games and tourneys, and they'll have time and space for things to work that they won't have as a 12-13 year old on a HS team.

[royals dad]

Thanks Night Train, Very good post. I just get a bit uncomfortable with the "always" or "never" statements. I agree with you 100% though, if your not 100% sure its the right thing do not do it, stay with age level.

[Pens4]

Great Thoughts and thanks for sharing them!!

I really think the competition is great at the 12

level. It really isn't any different than Peewee A competition. The District 6 level of play is very strong. We had maybe 2 teams in the league that were blowouts. The rest are nail biters against the Edina's , Burnsville, Minnetonka, Prior Lake, etc. Other games are trade games against the Lakeville's; Woodbury's, Anoka's; NWC; etc. Then the tournaments are hand picked against the best teams in the MN, WI or Canada. Then the regional tournament was great.

The Cost and convenience of high school hockey is without arguement. I notice that right away during registration and the $1200 saving with my son trying out for the JV. But even with that cost saving I couldn't imagine a 2nd year peewee playing with or competing against my son sophomore JV class. It is too young mentally & physically.

[dumb blonde]

Unfortunately there is no easy answer here. For my kid, we played youth through 9th grade and will now start our HS experience with 10th grade. Last seasons 14U team would have been better off if 3-4 of her classmates had not jumped to the HS team. Our HS coach would have preferred them not to come either but the truth is our JV coach was happy to have them. Our HS coach tries to discourage but, in the end, if the parents send them at 9th he takes them and is asked to make the tough decision on who at 10th, 11th or 12th grade to cut. On the other side of things, parents have been overheard to say they are sending their daughters early to solidify their spot so that when the rest of her classmates come to the team she will be a leg up.

We come from a larger association and have numbers for both youth and HS but too many smaller areas just can't field youth and HS teams so many girls are playing HS hockey starting in 7th grade. We chose to stay at youth because we had an excellent coach and we knew that our daughter would develop better in youth than at JV. Not to mention the age differences and issues that develop with older influences.

The nature of the numbers for girls hockey is the biggest factor here. If there were more players the movement to HS at 7th grade would not be such a big factor. It is what it is.

One last thing, I attended the 14U State Tournament Banquet last year. As the team from Chaska was being announced, I thought I heard, that a few of the girls had elected to stay back from HS to play the season and make a run for the state title. I may have heard wrong but I think that is a ray of hope. Another ray of hope is Roseau who also made it to state and finished 2nd. I don't think they offer a JV team. Looking at their schedule they played lots of JV teams and won most times. I wish things were simpler in the Metro as I think we can all learn things from Roseau.

[Mac15]

I have a kid in this going into 8th ghrade dilemna. It comes down to school size. If you are a large school you wait to play jv until 10th grade. If you are a small school you play jv at 7 or 8 grade. I will say this...my kids have learned more and have had more fun playing at the higher level. high School coaches get paid for a reason. And it is worth it. The sooner you can get your middle schooler to the hgh school leve and out of the local voluntary youth level the better

MAC15,

This is the thought process that is permeating through a large share of the girls youth programs and its initiated from parents in similoiar situations as you. It comes from a belief that playing for the JV at a young age is a badge of honor. I can think of a dozen 12U teams last year that would have beat 90% of the JV teams in the state. In fact, I can think of 3 14U teams last year that would have beat 50% of the varsity teams in the state.

It is the average girl that is getting hurt by this thought process. The superstars will always land on their feet. The superstar will play their 30 varsity games and then play 50 more games in the 2 Nations league during the summer.....BUT......the average 12U player goes to the JV team and her developement rest on a 90 day season. And please don't be so naive to think that a HS Coach is validated because some administrator decides to budget $2500 to a substitute teacher.

Pens4, note that ilike2score is advocating the early move to high school and in most cases I am in favor of staying at youth.

For the record, I am a 14UA coach and our association's girls hockey director. Our youth programs feed 3 girls high school teams. My daughter played one year of 14UA and then went to high school. If we could do it over again we would have kept her in 14UA for another year. She split time between the 2nd and 3rd line varsity so she saw more ice time than the many of her classmates but no where near the amount of time that she would have had at 14UA. It looks like the majority of our team from last season will return for another year of 14UA. I think that they will benefit by being on the ice at clutch time and I'm pretty sure that most of them would not see that ice on their high school teams.

My observations after having a daughter play 14UA, then a year of high school varsity, participate in Advanced 15 and play a spring/summer of AAA hockey: the main difference at this point is how much more physical the high school players compete versus the 14U players. The transition doesn't take too long but in the ADV15 festival and in AAA games you can see a difference in physical style. After a few AAA tournaments pretty much every girl is playing physical.

Good luck to everyone facing this decision. Whatever choice you make, play hard and have fun.

[neutralregroup]

Interesting discussion. Many well thought-out opinions that are fun to read (and read into).

This is a trend that was forseeable when the transfer rule was put into effect. Because of this, it is a problem that will not go away soon....

It was only a matter of time before the pressure was put on younger players (and their parents) to choose a high school program earlier (before 9th grade), and I think it has caused quite a few high school coaches to "promise" things to kids as young as 2nd year 12's. This is true of both public and private programs.

The sign of a healthy youth program will always be strong numbers and repeat quality coaching at each level. It seems to me that the youth programs that can keep coaches at one age group for an extended period of time will create an atmosphere that is conducive to keeping kids with their age group, and produce better high school players in the long run.

[jollyroger]

My opinion: If an association offers a U12A team for a 7th grader or a U14A team for an 8th grader, I can't think of a good reason for a kid to play JV.
Two programs that I know of, Roseville and Stillwater, have the 'no middle-schoolers on JV' rule (IMO all schools should have this rule, with exceptions of course). The rule is strictly maintained by the current coaches, who are both intimately involved in the area youth associations (and are two of the best coaches in the state). The brilliance of this rule is that it take the decision out of the hands of the kid (who has no clue what will be best for her this coming season) and out of the hands of the parents (who have no clue what will be best for her this season). Smart and experienced people sat down and devised this rule many years ago and now hire coaches who understand the wisdom of it and insist on continuing it.

Last note: I agree there were a handful of U12A teams last year that could have beaten many JV teams.

[northwoods oldtimer]

JV is the absolute black hole of hockey. The level of team play is virtually non existant. Girls do not get developed at JV level period. Look at the tiny programs like Bemidji and Roseau, they field 14U teams and manage to get more out of the small number of kids than a lot of larger programs. It is indeed a sad trend to see occur in the metro and outstate programs. Raiding 12U teams will diminish development all that much more. 40 to 50 game schedule verses a 19 game schedule no question the kids should stay at youth level. Girls programs need to model the boys, you just do not see 8th graders running around on Varsity ice, they play bantams and the high school coach should encourage it. I do believe royalsdad is correct that if this trend continues you will see the attrition rate occur in girls programs. It is beneficial for the development of the girls to keep them moving along with their peer groups if you are focused on a healthy development model. They benefit from repping ice time in games on penalty kill, power play, system play, team play by getting the required level of instruction that is set for the specific age group much like the boys model of development. Sad to say few programs are following such a model and it sounds to be getting worse by taking u12 eligible kids. If you are part of the associations around this great state encourage your locel program to follow a development model that will grow the sport for the girls and not rush them off to high school level.

[ilike2score]

The problem is numbers. Most outstate schools do not have the numbers to field a high school team and JV team and thus look to the younger levels. I come from a small local association who does not field a 14U and last year only had a 12B. The upcoming year is still in question. My arguement is for these 8th graders in limbo to play J.V. They will get more practice time and better coaching. This is small school. The metro area is completely different animal. What do you do when your entire Girls youth program is less than 30 girls at all levels mite thru u12?

[hemiman]

In our house, we let my daughter play where she wants to play. Ultimately I feel where ever she is happiest or wants to play, thats where we want her to play.

That being said, if numbers aren't an issue I wouldn't want her to play H.S. as a 7th-8th grader. Even if, skillwise she could play jv. Think about the maturity level between a senior and a middle schooler. I would guess most lockerroom conversations are not appropriate for the younger girls. Be it sex, drinking, whatever. I heard tales from varsity players and their parents and I wouldn't want to send my kid into some of those lockerrooms.

Also, development wise where will she improve the most, 2nd-3rd line jv or 1st line u14. At the 14 level, I would think the oppurtunity to be a leader rather than in the middle of the pack at jv will be more beneficial to a younger player, especially in terms of confidence. Plus I belive there will be more games at the association level, as opposed to jv.
Sure, there might be a girl here and there who will not be challenged at the u14 level, in that case she will probably go straight to varsity. In that case, if I felt she would develop more playing varsity, I would encourage the move, if she wanted.
My opinion I wouldn't recomend a move up to play jv.

I would like to see a return to a u15 level vs u14. I think it would improve competition and allow more girls to continue playing. I think the u14 plan failed. Mn hockey broke down the age groups so the girls were playing others closer to their maturity level. Because of limited numbers girls are moving up early and still playing against girls more developed the they may be. To me it seems the experiment didn't work and probably cost numbers in many associations. u15 would allow older freshman and sophomores to continue to play if they dont make H.S.

[mnhkylvr]

I do agree with Pens4 in this specific instance. U12 to JV is a questionable decision when your U12 group has incredible depth and excellent coaching. OVERALL, however, I am certainly one to believe wholeheartedly in the ability for a player and her family to have choices regarding the path she takes. The wonderful thing about hockey in MN would be the number of options available! Our daughter has taken the non-traditional route (boys thru PW and then to varsity) and it has worked out very well for her. Had she been 2-3 years younger - or in a different association - her path would probably look very different.