Youth athletics - Has there ever been a study?

[JoltDelivered]

Does anyone know if there has ever been a study done on professional atheletes (regardless of sport) about the atheletes development process as a youth? In other words, has anyone ever looked at a large group of say professional hockey players and did a detailed analysis of what they did as youths growing up in the sport. Things such as :

Age began playing sport
Played the sport in season only vs. 12 months
Attendence at various training/development camps
Progression through the ranks (years played at A level, B level, C level)

I think it would be very interesting to see if someone was / is able to catergorize the professional athelete's development cycle from age 5 on up. I am talking about distinguishable trends over time not personalized success stories. Does anyone know if this sort of data has ever been gathered or published?

[sorno82]

There have been numerous studies over the years, but what I find most interesting are the methods developed by the old Soviet Bloc. They wanted to develop the best athletes in every arena, so they stayed away from the early specialization. They were patient and tried to develop the athlete first before they would specialize. In short, early specialization led to early success, but athletes peaked early. Late specialization led to longer term success and higher achievement in later years. Kind of what the USA development model is based on. Here is one of many examples.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/TomMyslinski.pdf

Googling will bring up a lot of studies that say that genetics, hard work, patience, opportunity, passion, and resources (money) are the keys to long term success (not rocket science).

[InigoMontoya]

interesting article, much of it 40 years old, but interesting; however it doesn't answer JD's request. I'd be interested to see that too - even just a statistically significant survey of NHLers and their youth experiences. It'd be interesting if the study came back showing that 65 percent of them went fishing every summer until they turned 16. AAA bass tournaments?

[JSR]

Does anyone know if there has ever been a study done on professional atheletes (regardless of sport) about the atheletes development process as a youth? In other words, has anyone ever looked at a large group of say professional hockey players and did a detailed analysis of what they did as youths growing up in the sport. Things such as :

Age began playing sport
Played the sport in season only vs. 12 months
Attendence at various training/development camps
Progression through the ranks (years played at A level, B level, C level)

I think it would be very interesting to see if someone was / is able to catergorize the professional athelete's development cycle from age 5 on up. I am talking about distinguishable trends over time not personalized success stories. Does anyone know if this sort of data has ever been gathered or published?

I know this doesn't exactly answer your question but it is related and is a good read done by some esteemed researchers in this field.

http://iweb.aahperd.org/NASPE/pdf_files ... 202009.pdf

[sorno82]

That is just one of many articles. You may not get the "AAA" vs. fishing comparison, but what has driven a lot of the recent efforts by the NHL and USA hockey is the relative success of the Europeans vs. North Americans. In general, the Euro's spend much more time with off ice development than the NA's in part because of the availability of ice, both off and in season. Off ice activities can take the form of mulitple sports or general athletic development (sprints, weights, agility, etc). So, to achieve elite status, one does not need to be on the ice year round, but an athlete can do things away from the rink and still develop. Doing other athletic activities gives the kids a mental break, and lets their bodies recover from repetitive motions like skating.

I don't think one needs to exagerate the time off aspect as a key to success to understand the benefit.

I do remember a study that took 5 random NHL players and studied their path to the NHL. I can't find the study, but all seemed to specialize later rather than earlier and all had parents who didn't push them into any one activity. I will see if I can find it later.

[jBlaze3000]

From JSR's link:

The most effective sport schools in those countries used cross training methods to develop general physical skills that became the foundation for developing increasingly specialized skills during adolescence and young adulthood. Exceptions to this occurred only in sports where judging criteria were designed to favor the flexibility and artistic lines of prepubescent bodies; “women’s” gymnastics and figure skating continue to be the prime examples.

From the Minnesota Made choice squirt league brochure:

HOCKEY IS BEHIND
When you look at other skilled sports like gymnastics, figure skating or even the performing arts hockey is behind. These sports and the arts try and identify potential elite children at a young age and start their training early. When the athlete reaches the age of 15 they are world class or are well on their way. How do they do this? By using a focused methodology, including an incredible amount of quality repetition.

Hmmmmm....

[council member retired]

From the Minnesota Made choice squirt league brochure:
[quote]HOCKEY IS BEHIND
[b]When you look at other skilled sports like gymnastics, figure skating or even the performing arts hockey is behind.[/b] These sports and the arts try and identify potential elite children at a young age and start their training early. When the athlete reaches the age of 15 they are world class or are well on their way. How do they do this? By using a focused methodology, including an incredible amount of quality repetition.[/quote]

Hmmmmm....[/quote]

is this why so many of them quit at about 15? For every one he gets, there maybe 5 dozen whom hate the game.

[DMom]

interesting article, much of it 40 years old, but interesting; however it doesn't answer JD's request. I'd be interested to see that too - even just a statistically significant survey of NHLers and their youth experiences. It'd be interesting if the study came back showing that 65 percent of them went fishing every summer until they turned 16. AAA bass tournaments?

Are there studies that show that playing catcher for 40 games doesn't contribute to a hockey players explosiveness (jumping up to throw a runner out takes explosiveness), are there studies that show that pitching out of a two out bases loaded experience doesn't help build the mental toughness to try harder during tough games? or stepping into the batters box amidst a huge and frustrating slump? I am sure soccer and lacrosse have parallel examples.

[InigoMontoya]

what has driven a lot of the recent efforts by the NHL and USA hockey is the relative success of the Europeans vs. North Americans

This puts USA Hockey is in a conundrum. They are attempting to implement a youth program patterned after a system that has total control. North America doesn't have the patience to wait for these kids to become 18 until they 'come into their own'. The junior and college programs are snatching them up way before the age of majority; in basketball, college coaches begin the recruiting process for top prospects when they are in 8th or 9th grade; in baseball, kids are opting out of their last couple years of high school to sign major league contracts.

Kids and parents are unlikely to change their behavior as long as that behavior continues to be rewarded. College coaches can get themselves quoted in The Only Coaches That TRULY Care About The Kids Magazine, saying that specialization at an early age is ruining college hockey, but until they quit signing these kids, the trend won't change. A guy out east complains about the northeast creating burned out hockey machines and that the south and CA are producing more creative kids that are easier to coach, but a look at his roster shows that he only has 3 kids who hale from outside New England - 2 brothers from the southeast (who played highschool hockey at a residence prep school up north) and 1 kid from Houston (who played hockey in Los Angeles, kind of a long commute to allow time to be a multisport athlete).

[InigoMontoya]

Are there studies that show that playing catcher for 40 games doesn't contribute to a hockey players explosiveness (jumping up to throw a runner out takes explosiveness), are there studies that show that pitching out of a two out bases loaded experience doesn't help build the mental toughness to try harder during tough games? or stepping into the batters box amidst a huge and frustrating slump? I am sure soccer and lacrosse have parallel examples.

I'm not sure why the "doesn't"s are bolded. I think all of those things are great. Blatherwick thinks tennis is great, as well as your examples. I think we should give kids a chance to try as many things as possible (of course then we're overscheduling them). However, I'm skeptical about the numbers of kids who continue to move on to each higher level who let their skates rust from March to October.

[HockeyDad41]

delete

[sorno82]

However, I'm skeptical about the numbers of kids who continue to move on to each higher level who let their skates rust from March to October.

You are exagerating a bit there. What you need to separate is the kid who scales back on hockey in the off-season vs. the 200 hours of ice that has been promoted by some. It is about balance and understanding that playing other sports or just doing dryland training is synergistic. Many of the soviet/East Bloc philosophies also evolved since they would switch a kids sport if they showed more promise in something else when they matured. It showed that the multilateral approach worked well.

That being said, the original question would be hard to answer in a non-biased way since it largely depends where you grow up. If you grow up in Slovakia, you may not play games when you are younger than 12. IF you grow up in Toronto, Detroit, or LA, then playing "AAA" would be the way to develop. Growing up in Roseau, you fish in the off-season (kidding of course).

Also, none of those surveys would take into affect the natural ability of the kid, work ethic, or level of players they were surrounded with.

The advise is overwhelming on how to maximize ones abilities, it is your choice on what to do.

[InigoMontoya]

What you need to separate is the kid who scales back on hockey in the off-season vs. the 200 hours of ice that has been promoted by some.

It'd be fun to see the results of that, as well. The spectrum runs from no off-season hockey at all, through stick handle in the garage a couple times a week, through attend a couple 3-day camps, through 20,000 shots in the driveway, etc., to 200 hours (and beyond).

In smaller communities, I think you see a majority of kids on the left end of the scale (maybe half or more that don't see a puck or stick from March to October - no exageration), a few kids in the middle, and a handful toward the right side. Invariably the highschool team will have a couple kids toward the left (good athletes, many who just play football on the ice), but the kids who contribute on the varsity are the ones that committed to the right - not instead of other sports, but in addition to other sports.

[DMom]

Now that I've spectated my way through a couple of peewee seasons, it is much easier to take my 8 year old to baseball. Our oldest skipped baseball for hockey, regardless of the fact that it was baseball season. In the end, my experience so far has taught me that if the 8 year old gets to a certain level of skating ability that's good enough. He is going to be huge, so to me the most important part of his development is to have his brothers push him around ALOT and have him fight back, which for a Mom is not an easy thing to do. Dominating the physical part of the game is very important at the older levels. That isn't to say that if the Blades or Machine came calling we wouldn't be very interested, but we won't be running him around to forty tryouts to get him picked up by a team, nor would we have him skate with poor coaching just to get ice time.

I agree with Janzce, in that each child is different. I have three boys and all three are taking a different route through their off season hockey. Mainly because I have learned that it doesn't matter how many hours a young kid skates, if they don't like the physical side of the game as a peewee it won't matter how good a skater they are or how many hours they skated.

[Lowstickside]

Maybe most have seen/heard these stats; but tracked back to the '70 's, of all the participants in the Little League World Series, fewer than 10 have gone on to play pro ball, and there was 1-2 who went on to play pro hockey.

A H.S. Hockey coach told me that a decent athlete should not focus exclusively on one sport at a young age because they don't know what sport will be their "best" as they get older. Experiences in multiple sports activities helps players excell at the sport in focus at that time. Experiences on the althetic field will benefit our kids when they deal with issues as adults.

[JSR]

What you need to separate is the kid who scales back on hockey in the off-season vs. the 200 hours of ice that has been promoted by some.

It'd be fun to see the results of that, as well. The spectrum runs from no off-season hockey at all, through stick handle in the garage a couple times a week, through attend a couple 3-day camps, through 20,000 shots in the driveway, etc., to 200 hours (and beyond).

In smaller communities, I think you see a majority of kids on the left end of the scale (maybe half or more that don't see a puck or stick from March to October - no exageration), a few kids in the middle, and a handful toward the right side. Invariably the highschool team will have a couple kids toward the left (good athletes, many who just play football on the ice), but the kids who contribute on the varsity are the ones that committed to the right - not instead of other sports, but in addition to other sports.

In one of the studies I read, there was a comment that "smaller communities" produced the most professional athletes, much more so than larger cities/suburbs. I can't remember who did the study off the top of my head. Now that was for ALL professional sports, it was not hockey specific, but still worth noting.

[sorno82]

In one of the studies I read, there was a comment that "smaller communities" produced the most professional athletes, much more so than larger cities/suburbs. I can't remember who did the study off the top of my head. Now that was for ALL professional sports, it was not hockey specific, but still worth noting.

http://www.yorku.ca/bakerj/Baker%20and% ... 20BJSM.pdf

Thousands of papers written about this stuff, one just needs to google and dig deep.

[InigoMontoya]

Maybe most have seen/heard these stats; but tracked back to the '70 's, of all the participants in the Little League World Series, fewer than 10 have gone on to play pro ball, and there was 1-2 who went on to play pro hockey.

I've seen that as well. However, it is a significantly different question than was asked. This answers 'of those who were good players lucky enough to be surrounded by exceptional teamates when they were 12, how many went pro 10 years later?' JD asked 'of those who went pro, what did they do when they were 12?' It may seem like picking nits, but it is substantially different.

Thousands of papers written about this stuff, one just needs to google and dig deep.

That doesn't look good for the small town kid dreaming of the NHL - almost 30% of the population is in communities less than 2500, but less than 3% of NHL draftees from those communities. Are kids raised in small towns less athletic?

[jBlaze3000]

I think when you look at the small towns (less than 2500) the issue is facilities and quality coaching. I can't think of too many cities of that size that have an indoor arena or an established youth program.

[sorno82]

That doesn't look good for the small town kid dreaming of the NHL - almost 30% of the population is in communities less than 2500, but less than 3% of NHL draftees from those communities. Are kids raised in small towns less athletic?

It is a fundamentally flawed study, and they admit it. Could be that not enough small towns have a rink or resources to support hockey. Look at how many more small towns in Minnesota play basketball exclusively due to that fact. You also wonder if someone born in Edina "Fairview Southdale" is considered between 50K and 100K in population, vs. the total Twin Cities population. Also, don't know if they included regions outside of traditional hockey playing areas. I am sure there are no hockey players born and raised from a small town in Mississippi, but I could be wrong.

Lots of studies out there, so you need to evaluate if the assumptions going in are reasonable and therefore, the results.

[royals dad]

Growing up in Roseau, you fish in the off-season (kidding of course).

When I was up there a few years ago I was told that Roseau did melt the ice in the summer except for a two week camp in July. I am not from there so I don't know it to be true but I am sure one of the upnorthguys will let me know if I am wrong.

[OGEE OGELTHORPE]

Growing up in Roseau, you fish in the off-season (kidding of course).

When I was up there a few years ago I was told that Roseau did melt the ice in the summer except for a two week camp in July. I am not from there so I don't know it to be true but I am sure one of the upnorthguys will let me know if I am wrong.

This year and last there has been ice for 6-8 weeks for a 4 on 4 summer league.

Thanks to the Legion of Doom.

[hockeydad11]

Good Read!

[muckandgrind]

Growing up in Roseau, you fish in the off-season (kidding of course).

When I was up there a few years ago I was told that Roseau did melt the ice in the summer except for a two week camp in July. I am not from there so I don't know it to be true but I am sure one of the upnorthguys will let me know if I am wrong.

Not true...there are PLENTY of summer hockey opportunities in Roseau.

[O-townClown]

Maybe most have seen/heard these stats; but tracked back to the '70 's, of all the participants in the Little League World Series, fewer than 10 have gone on to play pro ball, and there was 1-2 who went on to play pro hockey.

If I'm not mistaken, the numbers were 21 for the big leagues and 7 made it to the NHL - no doubt due to a Canadian team at the LLWS each year. Dan Bylsma cited these numbers in his book or on his website.