I guess athletes are born not made....

sorno82 · Post by **sorno82** » Tue May 26, 2009 11:40 am

I wonder who would win in a cage match between Joe and BM. Interesting thoughts in the article, though it helps to be a great athlete.

http://wpyf.wayzatafootball.com/page/sh ... 3731/23500

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Tue May 26, 2009 12:48 pm

More about hockey than football.

Lucia told The Animal kids should "hang up the skates for summer". Which Gophers followed this summer program?

Bronc · Post by **Bronc** » Tue May 26, 2009 12:52 pm

sorno82 wrote:I wonder who would win in a cage match between Joe and BM. Interesting thoughts in the article, though it helps to be a great athlete.

http://wpyf.wayzatafootball.com/page/sh ... 3731/23500

I agree 100% with play the sport in season to conclusion and don't let people have you short change the current season for the up and comer.

As the article states, "Great Athletes Are Born, not made". (And yes we all know even great athletes need to train, but remember you put a pig in a dress you still have a pig)

Deep pockets don't = stardom, playing one sport doesn't make you greater than the ability you have, just one dimensional.

JoltDelivered · Post by **JoltDelivered** » Tue May 26, 2009 2:35 pm

Two things about that article jump out at me:

1: He throws the Blades under the bus. Kind of funny.

2: "There is no proof that off-season hockey training is needed to make you a better hockey player." After watching several years of AAA summer hockey, I am starting to change my beleifs and I tend to agree with him.

mnhcp · Post by **mnhcp** » Tue May 26, 2009 4:47 pm

It's a nice article. One thing is forgotten though, what if the in-season sport experience is so horrible the only way to enjoy the sport is to play it during the off-season. They're blessed by by being in Wayzata where the perspective is overall competive sports programs at all levels. We're not all so lucky!

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Tue May 26, 2009 4:55 pm

mnhcp wrote:It's a nice article. One thing is forgotten though, what if the in-season sport experience is so horrible the only way to enjoy the sport is to play it during the off-season. They're blessed by by being in Wayzata where the perspective is overall competive sports programs at all levels. We're not all so lucky!

Exactly.....not all associations are equal. If it weren't for summer hockey, my kids may have quit the sport years ago. They love skating in the summer FAR more than skating with their association.

mnhcp · Post by **mnhcp** » Tue May 26, 2009 5:05 pm

I'm also firmly in disagreement as to being "born and not made". I'm going to comment on this at the risk of offending many. I concede I'll be very unpopular (again). First off, let's define what making it means: I'll define it as playing college hockey. Ever wonder how great our sport would be if "all" kids had the opportunity to play hockey. For example, "ALL ATHLETES" were thrown in the pool (those that can't afford it). Just maybe American Hockey/ NHL would be great again? Instead I look at all these spoiled little trophy kids who it's obvious in my mind are not particularily great athletes, their parents throw tons of money at them and they make it to D1. You see them all the time and go, they're a hockey player...what the *? Tempted but I won't drop names.
They make it to college but rarely to the NHL. To me it's obvious they weren't born that way. Sure they worked hard with their parents sponsorship, sacrifice or even working hard in one of many great hockey towns. They certainly weren't born that way and I'll call many hardly athletes. Now there are some exceptions, and those great ones!

Now I do think on the world hockey stage, most of those players are in fact born...this does include the NHL. I hope that doesn't sound like a contradiction.

I can think of many Gophers that put on the dress and they still called them a Gopher. I can't think of many NHL'ers that put on the dress.

Born = to be an NHL'er
Made = to play High School or even College Hockey

HockeyDad41 · Post by **HockeyDad41** » Wed May 27, 2009 7:58 am

Toomuchtoosoon · Post by **Toomuchtoosoon** » Thu May 28, 2009 9:31 am

It is hilarious that this is the only article in the Wayzata football news. You think they could add items about the Barbers or any of the other numerous NFL, D1 players that went though the program. I agree with a lot of the article, but it is also a message to hockey parents in Wayzata. The football program and Hockey program do not get along and always seem to be battling. The football program does not think hockey tryouts should be so early, nor should kids skip practice for hockey. They stress that point at the initial parent meetings. In fact, they say you can miss football for most anything but hockey. If you miss for hockey, you will sit out part of the football game.

That being said, Hockey could wait until mid-october to hold tryouts. No impact in final season results if they wait a couple of weeks. Fill the two week gap with optional rink rat hockey and clinics so the kids can skate when it meets their schedule, without the pressure of having to decide-football game or hockey tryout.

Football is only two months, association hockey is 5-6 months. A compromise should be easy.

jBlaze3000 · Post by **jBlaze3000** » Thu May 28, 2009 11:54 am

In regards to the "born vs made" argument, I think it also didn't hurt that James' dad was a coach. I have come to accept that it is virtually impossible for a coach to be impartial when coaching their sons team. Because of this their sons are afforded extra advantages that the rest of the kids aren't.

auld_skool · Post by **auld_skool** » Thu May 28, 2009 2:15 pm

All this article tells me is that in addition to working hard, it doesn't hurt to have a lot of natural ability. As a coach, if a kid only has one, I'll take a good work ethic every time over pure talent.

Like being wealthy, there are at least two ways to get there: You can inherit or you can earn it.

JoltDelivered · Post by **JoltDelivered** » Thu May 28, 2009 2:19 pm

Keep in mind I think most parents, inlcuding me, signed up their kids to PLAY sports, not practice them. I think we all understand practices are necessary but it's the games and competition that all atheletes hunger for and quite honsetly carry with them forever.

This is why, when the word development is thrown around I always find myself asking the question: If only less than 1% of atheletes go on to play professional sports, what are we developing the other 99% for? High school? College? Alright, so take out that 10%. So what about the remaming 80%? What are we developing those kids for? This is why the development word gives me the shivers. It's fashionable to say, sure, but I think we often "develop" kids right out of sports at a young age.

As I look back on my own youth athletics career, including my days in high school and college, I can't remember a single practice. Not one. But there are several games that stick out in my mind as memorable moments regardless of the sport. And in todays world of intense training to build muscles, skill and quickness, I think we often lose sight of that fact.

But we are a product of our time right? We have seen Tiger's dad spend countless hours developing his own son for stardom on the links. We have seen the William's sisters dad train them from a young age only to reach the pinnacle of tennis. I think most parents think, well, all I have to do is that? No problem, where's my whislte and white board? C'mon kid, lets get to work...

So when it comes to the converasation of Born vs. Made, can we all maybe ask ourselves why, in the first place, did we sign up that snot-nosed 5 year old in the first place?

auld_skool · Post by **auld_skool** » Thu May 28, 2009 2:42 pm

Jolt,

With all due respect, you're kidding right? I mean seriously, is that what you said to your kid's violin teacher? I want him to PLAY the violin not practice it? I guarantee he'd remember a recital where he couldn't play a note!

JoltDelivered · Post by **JoltDelivered** » Thu May 28, 2009 2:51 pm

AS,

Lets go back to sentence #2 as a refresher:

I think we all understand practices are necessary...

I include myself in the WE pronoun...

And, with all due respect, what's the difference between practicing the violin and playing the violoin?

outside_observer · Post by **outside_observer** » Thu May 28, 2009 2:56 pm

auld_skool wrote:Jolt,

With all due respect, you're kidding right? I mean seriously, is that what you said to your kid's violin teacher? I want him to PLAY the violin not practice it? I guarantee he'd remember a recital where he couldn't play a note!

Exactly.
I only want to get good grades, but I don't want to study.
I want to make a lot of money, but I don't want to go to work.

To be good at anything, you have to put the time in.

Einstein was not born smart.

outside_observer · Post by **outside_observer** » Thu May 28, 2009 2:58 pm

JoltDelivered wrote:
And, with all due respect, what's the difference between practicing the violin and playing the violoin?

That's like what's the difference between a hockey game, and practice.

What's the difference between studying for a test and taking a test?

auld_skool · Post by **auld_skool** » Thu May 28, 2009 3:01 pm

JoltDelivered wrote:AS,

Lets go back to sentence #2 as a refresher:

I think we all understand practices are necessary...

I include myself in the WE pronoun...

And, with all due respect, what's the difference between practicing the violin and playing the violoin?

The difference is that AFTER practicing (a lot!) you get good at it. The payoff? Your kid learns that it's worth it to work hard for something and that if he does he can reach his goals and achieve his dreams. My son doesn't just want to be on a good hockey team. He wants to be a good hockey player and he's willing to work hard to be one!

JoltDelivered · Post by **JoltDelivered** » Thu May 28, 2009 3:28 pm

OO,

At what age does the focus shift from just "playing" to "you must work hard to be good"? Heck, I play golf every now and then but I'm mediocre. But i'm also not going to go out and practice at a ratio of 10:1 to get better. I just enjoy playing. This is my point. Look, i'm not saying never practice, it has it's place, I thought I was clear about that from the get go.

And I don't beleive work ethic comes from just going to practice. That comes from inside. You either want it or you don't. I guess to clarify my original point, what do we do with the kids who "don't want it" but still want to play because it's fun for them? Do we tell them they're lousy kids because they don't want to work hard at a sport?

And sorry my humor was missed about the practice and playing the violin bit. Usually people get my material...

As far as the difference between a hockey game and practice, I don't see alot of orange cones, upside down sticks or 5 on 1 power plays in games. whoa, whoa, that was humor again...

JoltDelivered · Post by **JoltDelivered** » Thu May 28, 2009 3:36 pm

AS,

I don't disagree with any of that...

But I have been around long enough to read between the lines. People often say:

"My kid wants to be good so he works hard..."

When in reality that's a thinly veiled disguise for:

"I've always dreamed of my kid being good so I make him work hard..."

Not saying that applies to you, but I've seen it dozens of times. And it's usually followed by, "but if he wanted to quit today, well by golly I'd tell him great, let's go do something else..." Which is also a crap load of bull..

auld_skool · Post by **auld_skool** » Thu May 28, 2009 4:31 pm

Jolt,

It's been my experience that you can't MAKE a kid work hard. You can spend a lot of money and get him on lots of teams and go to all kinds of far away places to play, but the willingness to work hard (at hockey in this case, but the violin applies here too) comes from within. I tell kids I coach to follow their passion whatever it is.

I've actually seen very few parents with the attitude you describe, but I will certainly concede they exist. I'm glad we mostly agree. You seem like a good dad and care about your kids. Whether my son plays hockey at a higher level is uncertain at best. It's what hockey has taught him about hard work and being a good citizen that makes it worth it.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Thu May 28, 2009 4:57 pm

And I don't beleive work ethic comes from just going to practice. That comes from inside. You either want it or you don't.

It's been my experience that you can't MAKE a kid work hard.

So you're saying "hard workers" are born not made? I agree that once a kid reaches a certain age you can't MAKE him do anything, but can't we teach, coach, motivate? Otherwise what are we doing as parents?

Bronc · Post by **Bronc** » Thu May 28, 2009 6:05 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:
And I don't beleive work ethic comes from just going to practice. That comes from inside. You either want it or you don't.

It's been my experience that you can't MAKE a kid work hard.
So you're saying "hard workers" are born not made? I agree that once a kid reaches a certain age you can't MAKE him do anything, but can't we teach, coach, motivate? Otherwise what are we doing as parents?

When it is all said and done, everyone (kids, adults, etc) have a maximum amount of potential at all things and regardless of how much coaching, training, studying, work ethic, etc you have there is a ceiling.

Same holds true in sports, track is a perfect example. Yes training, technique etc will make you faster, but each person has a limit to their speed. Hockey is the same. Why does Lebron James stand out, because he works harder (I think most at the NBA work hard) or is it the talent he was born with that he makes the most of.

You are born with your limits, but your choices, of hard work, desire and practice decides if you will reach them.

This thread started do you believe you are born with your talent, I agree with you are born with a maximum amount of potential talent if developed.

(It is funny he takes a shot at the Blades and Hockey, but heck I love football to).

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Thu May 28, 2009 6:05 pm

JoltDelivered wrote:AS,

I don't disagree with any of that...

But I have been around long enough to read between the lines. People often say:

"My kid wants to be good so he works hard..."

When in reality that's a thinly veiled disguise for:

"I've always dreamed of my kid being good so I make him work hard..."

Not saying that applies to you, but I've seen it dozens of times. And it's usually followed by, "but if he wanted to quit today, well by golly I'd tell him great, let's go do something else..." Which is also a crap load of bull..

I disagree and agree at the same time. I MAKE my kids work hard at everything they do. They are made to work hard on their school work, they are made to work hard on their chores, they are made to work hard at becoming better people, these are things they are made to work hard at. I do not make my kids play sports, I have 3 kids and they are all into different things but I do encourage them to give their best effort in whatever they choose to do. If that is your definition of me making them work hard so be it but they are allowed to quit whenever they want to try something else. I will say that if the kid truly enjoys what they are doing then they do tend to put alot more effort into those things. I have to "make" my son do his homework and I have to "make" him do it right most nights (and there is usually alot of hemming and hawing along the way) but I have never made him go downstairs and shoot pucks for 2 hours

auld_skool · Post by **auld_skool** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:56 am

InigoMontoya wrote: So you're saying "hard workers" are born not made? I agree that once a kid reaches a certain age you can't MAKE him do anything, but can't we teach, coach, motivate? Otherwise what are we doing as parents?

I didn't say that Inigo. Try reading the entire thread, that might help. I was responding to this:

"I've always dreamed of my kid being good so I make him work hard..."

Of course coaches and parents can teach, coach and motivate. It's what I've always done both as a parent and as a coach.You probably do too. But as far as forcing your kid to work hard, I've never seen a kid work hard at hockey against his will.

auld_skool · Post by **auld_skool** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:59 am

InigoMontoya wrote: So you're saying "hard workers" are born not made? I agree that once a kid reaches a certain age you can't MAKE him do anything, but can't we teach, coach, motivate? Otherwise what are we doing as parents?

I didn't say that Inigo. Try reading the entire thread, that might help. I was responding to this:

"I've always dreamed of my kid being good so I make him work hard..."

Of course coaches and parents can teach, coach and motivate. It's what I've always done both as a parent and as a coach.You probably do too. But as far as forcing your kid to work hard, I've never seen a kid work hard at hockey consistently against his will. To me it's all about passion.

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I guess athletes are born not made....

I guess athletes are born not made....

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