The Breakdown takes its weekly look at the top 15 teams in Class A...
1. Little Falls (14-0-0)
The Flyers got past their biggest hurdle to an undefeated regular season, edging Central Lakes foe Alexandria 1-0 Thursday night in Alex. After two scoreless periods, Wesley Waytashek (10-11-21) scored just 22 seconds into the third on a feed from Ben Hanowski (33-24-57) to give the Flyers the win. Senior Michael Sperl (14-0-0, 1.70 GAA, .928 save %) stopped all 26 shots he faced in the game. Now Little Falls has to battle complacency as much as its opponents, although Sartell-St. Stephen and the Nahan boys could cause trouble on Tuesday.
This week: Tuesday vs. Sartell-St. Stephen (7:15 p.m.), Thursday vs. Fergus Falls (7:15 p.m.), Friday at Sauk Rapids-Rice (7 p.m.).
2. St. Thomas Academy (13-3-1)
St. Thomas Academy proved its supremacy over a couple of other top Class A clubs last week, pasting Rochester Lourdes (5-2) and Mahtomedi (8-5). The debate will continue to rage for a while as to who’d fare best in a Little Falls/St. Thomas Academy matchup. And unless the Flyers are upset during the regular season, the Cadets may have to settle for the No. 2 spot. Underclassmen lead the way for young St. Thomas Academy, both on offense with Christian Isackson (9-22-31), Justin Crandall (16-12-28) and A.J. Reid (17-9-26) and on defense with Joe Graveline (0-11-11) and goaltenders Kurt Altrichter (9-2-1, 2.04 GAA, .912 save %) and Matt McNeely (4-1-0, 2.41 GAA, .901 save %). Little Falls, on the other hand, is senior-laden.
This week: Thursday vs. Simley (7:30 p.m.), Saturday at North St. Paul (7:30 p.m.).
3. Hermantown (15-1-0)
The Hawks weren’t a very accommodating host for a pair of Wisconsin teams last week, beating Lake Superior Conference foes Superior and Ashland by a combined 18-2 score. They’ll certainly get a test Monday night, though, with a rescheduled game at No. 5 St. Cloud Cathedral. Adam Krause (13-20-33) and Cody Christopherson (17-14-31) continue to lead Hermantown in scoring and have combined for 10 power play goals. Ben Tessier (11-0-0, 2.25 GAA, .893 save %) remained perfect in nets, although Tyler Ampe (4-1-0, 1.28 GAA, .939 save %) posted his third shutout of the season in his only start last week.
This week: Monday at St. Cloud Cathedral (6:45 p.m.), Tuesday at Proctor (7:30 p.m.), Saturday at Two Harbors (7:30 p.m.).
4. St. Cloud Cathedral (14-2-1)
After a long layoff of nine days, the Crusaders came out firing in Wright County Conference play. Cathedral swamped Delano/Rockford (4-0) and Mound-Westonka (6-0) in back-to-back games. Defenseman Joe Nessler (3-18-21) stepped to the forefront with six assists in the two games and helped goaltender Nick Maiers (12-2-1, 1.61 GAA, .917 save %) record two straight shutouts. Maiers now has six on the season, tying Duluth East’s Matt Cooper. Jordan Palusky (20-11-31) continued his great goal-scoring season, while Nate Schmidt (14-17-31) and Alex Koopmeiners (9-18-27) also give the Crusaders punch.
This week: Monday vs. Hermantown (6:45 p.m.), Tuesday at Waconia (7 p.m.), Saturday vs. Holy Family (1 p.m.).
5. Warroad (15-2-0)
I’m not going to knock the Warriors much for their overtime loss at Moorhead (5-4) Saturday night. Warroad fell behind 4-1 late in the second period, but stormed back to tie it and nearly won in the final seconds, if not for several big saves by Spuds’ goalie Michael Bitzer. The Warriors also beat ranked Thief River Falls (5-1) easily on Thursday. Junior Brock Nelson (23-16-39) is a massive player on the ice and can really snipe, as can Chris Sylvester (16-8-24) and a trio of shifty defensemen in Michael Pieper (3-13-16), Tai Larson (3-11-14) and Carson Gray (4-9-13).
This week: Tuesday vs. Crookston (7:30 p.m.), Friday vs. Duluth Marshall (7:30 p.m.), Saturday vs. Duluth Denfeld (4:30 p.m.).
6. Breck (12-3-1)
Breck opened the week with a hard-fought 1-all tie with Totino-Grace, then stepped back into Tri-Metro play in a big way, routing St. Paul (9-1) and St. Paul Como (10-1). It’s expected to more of the same throughout the Tri-Metro schedule for the Mustangs. Defenseman Reid Herd (6-11-17) scored four goals in the two games. Tyson Fulton (12-17-29) and Joe Rehkamp (8-20-28) lead all scorers, while Mike Morin (12-9-21) is tied with Fulton for the goal-scoring lead. Like Breck, many of the top Class A teams will be in the thick of their conference schedules now and will face fewer challenging games the rest of the way (with some notable exceptions, of course).
This week: Tuesday at Orono (7 p.m.), Thursday at Blake (7:45 p.m.), Saturday vs. Minnehaha Academy (1 p.m.).
7. South St. Paul (10-3-3)
The Packers followed up their impressive tie with St. Thomas Academy by beating Richfield (4-2) in their only game last week. Senior defenseman Zach Palmquist (12-15-27) continues to pace the team in scoring, netting two more goals against the Spartans. Both the Section 4A and Classic Suburban Conference races heat up this week, with road games at Hill-Murray and Mahtomedi on the slate.
This week: Tuesday vs. North St. Paul (7 p.m.), Thursday at Hill-Murray (8 p.m.), Saturday at Mahtomedi (7:30 p.m.).
8. Virginia/MI-B (13-5-0)
The Iron Range Conference sure is a dogfight at the top between the Blue Devils, Hibbing/Chisholm and International Falls (and Class AA Grand Rapids). The programs seem to knock each other off every week, alternating in the rankings from week-to-week. Last week, Virginia bested I-Falls 5-2 behind Andrew Judnick’s (7-15-22) hat trick, while Hibbing was losing to Grand Rapids. Don’t expect the Blue Devils to slip up this week, however, with a trio of very winnable games. Virginia will go as far as its top unit of Chris Westin (20-23-43), Garrett Hendrickson (10-20-30), Judnick and defenseman Jordan Krebsbach (13-11-24) takes it.
This week: Tuesday at Greenway (7:30 p.m.), Friday vs. Eveleth-Gilbert (7:30 p.m.), Saturday at Silver Bay/Cook County (7:30 p.m.).
9. Mahtomedi (12-4-1)
The Zephyrs had a week they’d like to forget, losing both games and allowing a flood of goals in the process. St. Thomas Academy started the cascade with an 8-5 victory on Thursday and Richfield followed it with a 5-4 setback Saturday. It sent them tumbling from the top-5 in the rankings to a near-visit with double-digit territory. A big Section 4A game looms this Saturday with South St. Paul, which has already beaten Mahtomedi once this season. Double-digit goal scorers Ben Marshall (14-22-36), Charlie Adams (10-22-32), Brandon Zurn (13-13-26), Tanner Jordan (11-6-17) and Ben Holker (10-7-17) hope to reverse that trend.
This week: Thursday at North St. Paul (8 p.m.), Saturday vs. South St. Paul (7:30 p.m.).
10. Alexandria (11-3-0)
I’d like to rank the Cardinals higher, but they’ve lost in their three toughest tests (twice to Little Falls and once to Cathedral), although all three games were one-goal losses. Alexandria could be a team that upsets Little Falls in the Section 6A final and makes some noise at state, or they could fall shy of the Flyers a third time and disappear. Senior goaltender Matt Hemingway (11-3-0, 1.50 GAA, .937 save %) is one of the state’s best and can keep the Cardinals in any game. Thomas Williams (11-15-26) and Tyler Resch (15-8-23) are the top two scorers for Aleandria.
This week: Tuesday at Willmar (7 p.m.), Thursday at St. Cloud Apollo (7 p.m.), Saturday vs. Bemidji (7:30 p.m.).
11. Thief River Falls (11-5-1)
The Prowlers had a chance to make some hay this past week with big games against Moorhead and Warroad on the schedule. They started great, shutting down the Spuds (3-1) on Tuesday, but the Warriors proved to be a more difficult foe (5-1) Thursday. Still, a split leaves Thief River Falls right were it was in last week’s rankings. Lucas Dillon (15-16-31) cranks up the Prowlers’ offense, but goalie Zane Gothberg (9-4-1, 1.67 GAA, .933 save %) is the engine that makes them purr.
This week: Tuesday at East Grand Forks (7:30 p.m.), Friday vs. Duluth Denfeld (7:30 p.m.), Saturday vs. Duluth Marshall (3 p.m.).
12. Hibbing/Chisholm (12-5-1)
In an odd bit of scheduling, the Bluejackets have all week off to think about their 5-1 loss to Grand Rapids last Friday. It will be their only game in a two-week stretch from Jan. 20 through Feb. 3. Hibbing outshot the Thunderhawks 37-22, but could not solve netminder A.J. Underwood. He accomplished what few have done so far this year, shutting out Aaron Jamnick (25-17-42, with an amazing eight short-handed goals). Still, the Bluejackets are on track for the top seed in Section 7A with a perfect 5-0-0 record in section play.
This week: no games scheduled.
13. Red Wing (10-6-0)
The Wingers posted a big 5-3 victory at New Prague in their only game of the week. Red Wing bust out to a 5-0 lead with only 3:23 left in the game on two goals from Josh Mensing (10-9-19) and single tallies from George Noesen (12-9-21), Patrick Noesen (10-12-22) and Blake Schammel (10-14-24) the team’s top four scorers. They had to hand on for dear life, though, as New Prague rapped in three goals in the final 3:03 to make it more interesting than it should have been. But the victory, combined with Rochester Lourdes’ recent struggles, has opened the door on the Section 1A race.
This week: Tuesday at Hutchinson (6 p.m.), Thursday at Farmington (7:15 p.m.).
14. Rochester Lourdes (10-5-0)
Only a 7-4 victory over visiting East Grand Forks kept Lourdes from being in the midst of a four-game losing skid, as they also lost to St. Thomas Academy (5-2) and Delano/Rockford (3-2) last week. There’s still plenty of time to right the ship before the playoffs begin, and any team that boats of a first line of Cole Peterson (12-23-35), Tyler Voigt (17-17-34) and Taylor Funk (18-9-27) is still plenty dangerous. But the Eagles have to find a way to limit offensive chances against them to be truly a contender.
This week: Thursday vs. Mound-Westonka (7:30 p.m.), Saturday at Shakopee (3 p.m.).
15. Totino-Grace (10-4-2)
Let’s welcome the Eagles of Totino-Grace into the top-15 for the first time, even though they didn’t have the most impressive week (a 1-all tie with Breck, a 5-0 loss to Benilde-St. Margaret’s and a 2-1 squeaker over St. Francis). But there is plenty of talent on this team, led by UMD-bound Dan DeLisle (21-17-38). Totino’s North Suburban Conference slate gets a bit easier this week, which should allow them to add to their victory total.
This week: Tuesday at Spring Lake Park (7:30 p.m.), Friday vs. Irondale (7 p.m.).
Class A rankings (1-26-09)
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
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gophers101
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MNHockey75
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1. St. Thomas Academy 13-3-1
2. Little Falls 14-0
3. St. Cloud Cathedral 14-2-1
4. Hermantown 15-1
5. Warroad 15-2
6. Breck 12-3-1
7. South St. Paul 10-3-3
8. Thief River Falls 10-4-1
9. Mahtomedi 12-4-1
10. Hibbing 12-5-1
11. Duluth Marshall 9-6
12. Totino-Grace 11-4-2
13. Virginia 13-5
14. Alexandria 12-3
15. International Falls 11-5-1
2. Little Falls 14-0
3. St. Cloud Cathedral 14-2-1
4. Hermantown 15-1
5. Warroad 15-2
6. Breck 12-3-1
7. South St. Paul 10-3-3
8. Thief River Falls 10-4-1
9. Mahtomedi 12-4-1
10. Hibbing 12-5-1
11. Duluth Marshall 9-6
12. Totino-Grace 11-4-2
13. Virginia 13-5
14. Alexandria 12-3
15. International Falls 11-5-1
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HShockeywatcher
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"unless the Flyers are upset during the regular season, the Cadets may have to settle for the No. 2 spot"
Why?
Little Falls has played a total of 3 teams in your top 15, one of them twice.
They are the current #4, #8 and #10 (x2) teams on your list.
The games were 1, 3, 4 and 14 on their schedule.
Each of these games being won by 1 goal, one of them in OT.
With the rest of their schedule being relatively quite easy and having zero top AA teams you have already crowned them?
St Thomas however, plays 5 of those teams, 2 of them twice.
They are the current #6, #7 (x2), #9 (x2), #14 and #15, with 3 of those match ups still to come. They have played good AA teams and have Hill to play. One of their games was a tie, but the ones they won have been by way more than Little Falls'.
I have no problem with someone saying that St Thomas isn't #1, St Thomas isn't my issue at all, it's more LF at 1, but to say that with the very different schedules difficulty wise that if they both win out, Little Falls would still be #1 is crazy.
Additionally, I think it is crazy to have someone preaching record mattering so much and having a 13-3-1 team above a team who is 15-1.
Why?
Little Falls has played a total of 3 teams in your top 15, one of them twice.
They are the current #4, #8 and #10 (x2) teams on your list.
The games were 1, 3, 4 and 14 on their schedule.
Each of these games being won by 1 goal, one of them in OT.
With the rest of their schedule being relatively quite easy and having zero top AA teams you have already crowned them?
St Thomas however, plays 5 of those teams, 2 of them twice.
They are the current #6, #7 (x2), #9 (x2), #14 and #15, with 3 of those match ups still to come. They have played good AA teams and have Hill to play. One of their games was a tie, but the ones they won have been by way more than Little Falls'.
I have no problem with someone saying that St Thomas isn't #1, St Thomas isn't my issue at all, it's more LF at 1, but to say that with the very different schedules difficulty wise that if they both win out, Little Falls would still be #1 is crazy.
Additionally, I think it is crazy to have someone preaching record mattering so much and having a 13-3-1 team above a team who is 15-1.
Ya STA has played a harder schedule but they have 3 losses and an OT loss so if they were the best team they would have no losses as for Little Falls they have beat 3 good teams for 4 wins and a win is a win weather its by 1 or 10 also its just rankings who cares we will all find out who is the best team at state
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HShockeywatcher
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joester,
Their three losses are their first game of the season away where they outshot the other team 2:1, Centennial, who is in the top five in state and Holy Angels, who is potentially a top 3 team.
Your post also doesn't address my main issue. I don't care that St Thomas isn't 1st. I believe they should be, but it's fine if others don't. It simply doesn't make sense to have the three teams below them all have better records than them if you are putting the one team ahead of them ONLY because of their record. SOS is obviously factored in for St Thomas to be #2, if it wasn't, they'd be #5, but since it is factored in, having Little Falls at #1 makes little sense.
I personally feel the rankings are close to dead on except that Little Falls should be down 5 or 6 places, either ahead of or behind SSP.
Their three losses are their first game of the season away where they outshot the other team 2:1, Centennial, who is in the top five in state and Holy Angels, who is potentially a top 3 team.
Your post also doesn't address my main issue. I don't care that St Thomas isn't 1st. I believe they should be, but it's fine if others don't. It simply doesn't make sense to have the three teams below them all have better records than them if you are putting the one team ahead of them ONLY because of their record. SOS is obviously factored in for St Thomas to be #2, if it wasn't, they'd be #5, but since it is factored in, having Little Falls at #1 makes little sense.
I personally feel the rankings are close to dead on except that Little Falls should be down 5 or 6 places, either ahead of or behind SSP.
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hshckfan08
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I dont think anyone is ranking teams based on their record. I think people know that little falls is very talented and are a top team in class A. So since they haven't lost to anyone, who is to say they aren't the best. I think it's crazy you can't accept that... no one else has a huge problem with it. And the stupid beginning of the season excuse is getting extremely old.. should we just call it preseason so the first 5 games dont matter at all? Also you obviously care that st thomas isnt number one because they are the only team that has a much more difficult schedule than little falls out of the teams who can be put into the argument for the number 1 spot. Hermantown has only played 1 team who is in this A top 15HShockeywatcher wrote:joester,
Their three losses are their first game of the season away where they outshot the other team 2:1, Centennial, who is in the top five in state and Holy Angels, who is potentially a top 3 team.
Your post also doesn't address my main issue. I don't care that St Thomas isn't 1st. I believe they should be, but it's fine if others don't. It simply doesn't make sense to have the three teams below them all have better records than them if you are putting the one team ahead of them ONLY because of their record. SOS is obviously factored in for St Thomas to be #2, if it wasn't, they'd be #5, but since it is factored in, having Little Falls at #1 makes little sense.
I personally feel the rankings are close to dead on except that Little Falls should be down 5 or 6 places, either ahead of or behind SSP.
... SCC has only played 3 in this top 15... warroad has only played 2 ranked A teams and has played roseau and moorehead who are down this year. so those teams and little falls have very similar schedules in terms of difficulty thus far, so that would leave one team to use the SOS argument for. So using your logic, little falls being down 5-6 spots in laughable 
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hshckfan08
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gophers101
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HShockeywatcher
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"they are the only team that has a much more difficult schedule than little falls"
Team - In state - In Class A (according to PS2)
St Thomas - 8 - 1
Breck - 22 - 2
Duluth Marshall - 32 - 3
Hermantown - 40 - 4
Mahtomedi - 41 - 5
Mound Westonka - 42 - 6
Orono - 47 - 7
Hibbing - 51 - 8
Bemidji -52 - 9
Warroad - 53 - 10
Red Wing - 54 - 11
Cathedral - 56 - 12
Sauk Rapids - 57 - 13
Blake - 58 - 14
St Louis Park - 59 - 15
Northfield - 61 - 16
New Prague - 62 - 17
Rogers - 63 - 18
Little Falls - 65 - 19
Alexandria - 66 -20
Maybe you should rethink what you are saying there. There are 18 class A teams with a more difficult schedule than Little Falls.
Discussing giving more weight to the games at the end of the season isn't a new concept, nor is it one I came up with. Lee does it with the PS2, the BCS does it, etc, etc. I'm not negating the games at all, simply giving more weight to the ones that have happened more recently. However you do it, LF plays a total of 3 or 4 teams that are top 15 depending on where you look, all their good opponents are behind them, and all were beat by 1 goal.
I don't care that St Thomas isn't #1, what bothers me is that LF is ahead of them. They play 5 top Class A teams and 6 top Class AA teams, with 4 of those games still ahead of them.
Breck you could make a good argument for, although their remaining regular season games are all against bad teams.
Team - In state - In Class A (according to PS2)
St Thomas - 8 - 1
Breck - 22 - 2
Duluth Marshall - 32 - 3
Hermantown - 40 - 4
Mahtomedi - 41 - 5
Mound Westonka - 42 - 6
Orono - 47 - 7
Hibbing - 51 - 8
Bemidji -52 - 9
Warroad - 53 - 10
Red Wing - 54 - 11
Cathedral - 56 - 12
Sauk Rapids - 57 - 13
Blake - 58 - 14
St Louis Park - 59 - 15
Northfield - 61 - 16
New Prague - 62 - 17
Rogers - 63 - 18
Little Falls - 65 - 19
Alexandria - 66 -20
Maybe you should rethink what you are saying there. There are 18 class A teams with a more difficult schedule than Little Falls.
Discussing giving more weight to the games at the end of the season isn't a new concept, nor is it one I came up with. Lee does it with the PS2, the BCS does it, etc, etc. I'm not negating the games at all, simply giving more weight to the ones that have happened more recently. However you do it, LF plays a total of 3 or 4 teams that are top 15 depending on where you look, all their good opponents are behind them, and all were beat by 1 goal.
I don't care that St Thomas isn't #1, what bothers me is that LF is ahead of them. They play 5 top Class A teams and 6 top Class AA teams, with 4 of those games still ahead of them.
Breck you could make a good argument for, although their remaining regular season games are all against bad teams.
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PuckRanger
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If you look at the entire body of work, it can be justified. In fact they probably will be ahead of Hibbing in all of the other polls (LPH, PS2, and the USHSHO) as well.gophers101 wrote:I don't understand why you have Virginia in front of Hibbing...
Outside of its opening game loss (3-2 to Cloquet), Virginia's other 4 losses are all to ranked teams and all close games. Virginia has only lost one game by more than two goals, and that was to Hermantown - and they outshot Hermantown in that game and outplayed them for parts of it. The one loss to Hibbing doesn't really entitle Hibbing to be ranked ahead of them for the rest of the season - especially given the way that game went down.
Hibbing has a couple of lopsided losses and losses to teams that Virginia defeated. The early season loss to Mound-Westonka (5-2) can probably be excused, but the 5-0 loss to Warroad, 4-1 loss to Albert Lea, 5-1 loss to Grand Rapids, and 4-0 loss to Minnetonka hurt them. Especially since Virginia beat Grand Rapids 4-0 and Albert Lea 3-1. A tie with Roseau, and a couple of ugly wins (Lakeville North, Cloquet, and Denfeld) also hurt them.
Last week, I had Hibbing slightly ahead of Virginia, but after this week, I have a hard time not putting Virginia back ahead of Hibbing.
I'll leave the rest of the rankings alone, since I don't see enough of those teams, but I have no real problems with the order of things in this particular ranking.
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hshckfan08
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What do you work for ESPN or something, that is the definition of taking a quote out of contest, where if you would keep reading, you would find that i said "they are the only team that has a much more difficult schedule than little falls out of the teams who can be put into the argument for the number 1 spot...... I dont think anyone is going to put DM, Mahtomedi, Mound Westonka, Orono, Hibbing, Bemidji, Red Wing, Sauk Rapids, Blake, St. Louis Park, Northfield, New Prague, or Rodgers as the number 1 team in the state, unless you are suggesting something. Try reading next time.HShockeywatcher wrote:"they are the only team that has a much more difficult schedule than little falls"
Team - In state - In Class A (according to PS2)
St Thomas - 8 - 1
Breck - 22 - 2
Duluth Marshall - 32 - 3
Hermantown - 40 - 4
Mahtomedi - 41 - 5
Mound Westonka - 42 - 6
Orono - 47 - 7
Hibbing - 51 - 8
Bemidji -52 - 9
Warroad - 53 - 10
Red Wing - 54 - 11
Cathedral - 56 - 12
Sauk Rapids - 57 - 13
Blake - 58 - 14
St Louis Park - 59 - 15
Northfield - 61 - 16
New Prague - 62 - 17
Rogers - 63 - 18
Little Falls - 65 - 19
Alexandria - 66 -20
Maybe you should rethink what you are saying there. There are 18 class A teams with a more difficult schedule than Little Falls.
Discussing giving more weight to the games at the end of the season isn't a new concept, nor is it one I came up with. Lee does it with the PS2, the BCS does it, etc, etc. I'm not negating the games at all, simply giving more weight to the ones that have happened more recently. However you do it, LF plays a total of 3 or 4 teams that are top 15 depending on where you look, all their good opponents are behind them, and all were beat by 1 goal.
I don't care that St Thomas isn't #1, what bothers me is that LF is ahead of them. They play 5 top Class A teams and 6 top Class AA teams, with 4 of those games still ahead of them.
Breck you could make a good argument for, although their remaining regular season games are all against bad teams.
Whenever it benefits you to mention an early season loss, you go and make an excuse that it was the beginning of the year.. A game is a game.. You make early season losses sound irrelevant. And lets not bring BCS into the argument. Even the president finds it has enough flaws to discuss it on national tv.
It's fine if you want to go get the hardest schedule in the state, but when you lose games and other good teams win every game, don't complain when other people rank the perfect team ahead of the team with flaws in its record.
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HShockeywatcher
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I didn't take anything out of context (which is the word I'm guessing you meant). You writing what you did is taking it out of context. Many of those teams couldn't be ahead of Little Falls, this I know, but it shows why they should be looked at in a different light.
I don't disagree with most of the teams you listed, but Mahtomedi could make a case for being up there, although I don't think they'd be there. I would say if you consider schedule, Breck, Hermantown, Warroad and Cathedral all could make cases for it, and after last night's game, Cathedral should definitely be up there. The issue, I think, is that Class A competition is all that matters here. Breck, Warroad and St Thomas play some good AA competition and it's like it doesn't matter because there happens to be an upset on their schedule.
In your earlier post you took into account something outside of stats you know about Little Falls, which is all I'm doing with the STA/DM game. Nothing more. I was at the game, and the score/stats don't speak for what actually happened. Much like last night it appears.
Where else does this principle of having an easy schedule and being undefeated getting you ranked high work? Air Force was 12-0 then 13-1 and didn't crack the Top 9, Cremson got to 16-0 and also didn't crack the Top 9, the Gophers were 12-0 and didn't make the top 25; it was only after they LOST to a better team and proved themselves that they became ranked, Hutchinson got to 10-0 then 11-1 with their only loss to AHA and they weren't even on radars; the list goes on and on. No where else are good teams looked down on for having a difficult schedule and losing a few games. Individual games don't define a season.
My top 6 would be:
1. SCC/STA (hard to compare schedules
2. The other one
3. Breck
4. Warroad
5. Little Falls
6. Hermantown
Schedule matter. And one game doesn't make a season, we all know that.
I don't disagree with most of the teams you listed, but Mahtomedi could make a case for being up there, although I don't think they'd be there. I would say if you consider schedule, Breck, Hermantown, Warroad and Cathedral all could make cases for it, and after last night's game, Cathedral should definitely be up there. The issue, I think, is that Class A competition is all that matters here. Breck, Warroad and St Thomas play some good AA competition and it's like it doesn't matter because there happens to be an upset on their schedule.
In your earlier post you took into account something outside of stats you know about Little Falls, which is all I'm doing with the STA/DM game. Nothing more. I was at the game, and the score/stats don't speak for what actually happened. Much like last night it appears.
Where else does this principle of having an easy schedule and being undefeated getting you ranked high work? Air Force was 12-0 then 13-1 and didn't crack the Top 9, Cremson got to 16-0 and also didn't crack the Top 9, the Gophers were 12-0 and didn't make the top 25; it was only after they LOST to a better team and proved themselves that they became ranked, Hutchinson got to 10-0 then 11-1 with their only loss to AHA and they weren't even on radars; the list goes on and on. No where else are good teams looked down on for having a difficult schedule and losing a few games. Individual games don't define a season.
My top 6 would be:
1. SCC/STA (hard to compare schedules
2. The other one
3. Breck
4. Warroad
5. Little Falls
6. Hermantown
Schedule matter. And one game doesn't make a season, we all know that.
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bluelineenvy
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hshckfan08
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Yea sorry, the s is right next to the x...
Warroad has played roseau and lost to moorehead, not exactly good teams this year. I guess we are never going to agree on this because i feel like i have tried to say this like 10 times now. St. Thomas got handled fairly easily by the Centennial and Holy Angels, if they had won or even made it close i wouldnt have a problem with them at number 1. And Breck got thrashed by st thomas, beat by mahtomedi, and tied totino, so i dont know how they could be considered number 1, especially ahead of STA.
How does state tournament experience compare to early season games????
Little Falls SOS is hardly different than SCC, a team you just said "should definitely be up there", and who u just ranked no. 1/2! SCC is 9 spots ahead of little falls in SOS!!!!!!!
HAHA, i'm guessing clemson did crack the more commonly used top 10, but nice try.
As i said earlier, the gophers were average at best last year and terrible two years ago, so as with little falls, your recent history matters in order to gain credibility of being good.
Hutchinson was ranked 15 last week...
Individual games dont define a season, but in almost all cases, they do define rankings.
Warroad has played roseau and lost to moorehead, not exactly good teams this year. I guess we are never going to agree on this because i feel like i have tried to say this like 10 times now. St. Thomas got handled fairly easily by the Centennial and Holy Angels, if they had won or even made it close i wouldnt have a problem with them at number 1. And Breck got thrashed by st thomas, beat by mahtomedi, and tied totino, so i dont know how they could be considered number 1, especially ahead of STA.
How does state tournament experience compare to early season games????
Little Falls SOS is hardly different than SCC, a team you just said "should definitely be up there", and who u just ranked no. 1/2! SCC is 9 spots ahead of little falls in SOS!!!!!!!
HAHA, i'm guessing clemson did crack the more commonly used top 10, but nice try.
As i said earlier, the gophers were average at best last year and terrible two years ago, so as with little falls, your recent history matters in order to gain credibility of being good.
Hutchinson was ranked 15 last week...
Individual games dont define a season, but in almost all cases, they do define rankings.
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HShockeywatcher
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I think it's funny that many of the points you are trying to make support what I am saying, but thank you. I will do this point by point, so we don't lose anyone here.
1. What is your point about state tournament experience?
a. If it is time in the state tournament, the numbers aren't much different. St Thomas graduated 10 seniors (plus Walters) and Little Falls graduated 6. Little Falls gets the nod there, although St Thomas' goalie ended up playing better competition while at state and giving up less goals.
b. If it is time spent on the big sheet of ice at the X, St Thomas gets the nod there as they play in the Schwan Cup, playing their championship game their last year and two games there this year.
2. You are right, Clemson (and AF) both got to #10.
a. To come back and shove that in my face is to agree that Little Falls shouldn't be so high. With their SOSs Clemson and AF could only get up to #10. They weren't beating the teams they were playing by as much as they should be to be ranked higher and their non-conference schedules aren't difficult enough.
b. While there is more than the score to a game, a top TEAM is one who wouldn't allow the number of goals to lesser opponents LF has. Ben Hanowski is an amazing player and there are others on the team who have a hockey future, but as a team, that shouldn't be happening.
c. Commenting that Hutch finally got to 15 last week also shows it. How is Hutch getting to 15 after being undefeated justification for LF being at #1? It isn't.
3. You can use information you know about games and I cannot?
a. I will completely admit that the score is not the whole story when discussing a game, but if you are going to use examples like saying how good Ben Hanowski is factors in, then specifics about St Thomas' games should factor in too.
b. I've only seen a few games this season and the Marshall, Holy Angels and Centennial games were them. The Marshall game St Thomas dominated, the reffing was bad (both ways), and it was the first game of the season. The Holy Angels game St Thomas was just a bit short the whole time. Holy Angels is my pick for a top 5 (maybe even 3) team in state this year after seeing them play at the X. St Thomas did not get dominated by Centennial; Centennial took advantage of a few good opportunities and St Thomas didn't in a very evenly played game. Losing by 3 isn't getting "dominated."
c. Even if what you say is true, how is getting "dominated" by a top 5 AA team a bad thing? Holy Angels is at #6 and Centennial #3 on PS2. St Thomas was the underdog on paper in both games and they lost.
On the flip side, the only teams St Thomas has taken to OT are a SSP team they outshot who (it sounds like) was kept alive by their amazing goalie and a good Tonka squad.
d. Little Falls, on the other hand, has no games against top teams, period. The only good teams they've played they've beaten by 1 goal, one of them in OT, which can go either way. They've also beaten one unranked team by one goal.
4. I do know my recent history.
a. St Thomas likes to play games at the top of the bracket at state and do well while Little Falls dominates the bottom of the bracket. I think they are a good team who has gotten unfortunate draws, but to compare state experience to St Thomas is ridiculous.
b. Like Gopher basketball, Little Falls was pretty good last year and not very good the year before. MN has all their non-conference games (aside from maybe two) against mediocre competition and they are on the outside looking in.
5. I don't mind them being number 1
a. The biggest problem I had with what was said isn't that Little Falls is number 1, it's that consider the remaining schedules of the two teams, it was said that if Little Falls wins out, they would still be number 1.
b. Fine, they are number 1 now, St Thomas is number 2 now. If they both win out, considering who they play, shouldn't St Thomas get the nod there?
Still not sure how any of that supports you, most of it supports what I'm saying. But okay.
1. What is your point about state tournament experience?
a. If it is time in the state tournament, the numbers aren't much different. St Thomas graduated 10 seniors (plus Walters) and Little Falls graduated 6. Little Falls gets the nod there, although St Thomas' goalie ended up playing better competition while at state and giving up less goals.
b. If it is time spent on the big sheet of ice at the X, St Thomas gets the nod there as they play in the Schwan Cup, playing their championship game their last year and two games there this year.
2. You are right, Clemson (and AF) both got to #10.
a. To come back and shove that in my face is to agree that Little Falls shouldn't be so high. With their SOSs Clemson and AF could only get up to #10. They weren't beating the teams they were playing by as much as they should be to be ranked higher and their non-conference schedules aren't difficult enough.
b. While there is more than the score to a game, a top TEAM is one who wouldn't allow the number of goals to lesser opponents LF has. Ben Hanowski is an amazing player and there are others on the team who have a hockey future, but as a team, that shouldn't be happening.
c. Commenting that Hutch finally got to 15 last week also shows it. How is Hutch getting to 15 after being undefeated justification for LF being at #1? It isn't.
3. You can use information you know about games and I cannot?
a. I will completely admit that the score is not the whole story when discussing a game, but if you are going to use examples like saying how good Ben Hanowski is factors in, then specifics about St Thomas' games should factor in too.
b. I've only seen a few games this season and the Marshall, Holy Angels and Centennial games were them. The Marshall game St Thomas dominated, the reffing was bad (both ways), and it was the first game of the season. The Holy Angels game St Thomas was just a bit short the whole time. Holy Angels is my pick for a top 5 (maybe even 3) team in state this year after seeing them play at the X. St Thomas did not get dominated by Centennial; Centennial took advantage of a few good opportunities and St Thomas didn't in a very evenly played game. Losing by 3 isn't getting "dominated."
c. Even if what you say is true, how is getting "dominated" by a top 5 AA team a bad thing? Holy Angels is at #6 and Centennial #3 on PS2. St Thomas was the underdog on paper in both games and they lost.
On the flip side, the only teams St Thomas has taken to OT are a SSP team they outshot who (it sounds like) was kept alive by their amazing goalie and a good Tonka squad.
d. Little Falls, on the other hand, has no games against top teams, period. The only good teams they've played they've beaten by 1 goal, one of them in OT, which can go either way. They've also beaten one unranked team by one goal.
4. I do know my recent history.
a. St Thomas likes to play games at the top of the bracket at state and do well while Little Falls dominates the bottom of the bracket. I think they are a good team who has gotten unfortunate draws, but to compare state experience to St Thomas is ridiculous.
b. Like Gopher basketball, Little Falls was pretty good last year and not very good the year before. MN has all their non-conference games (aside from maybe two) against mediocre competition and they are on the outside looking in.
5. I don't mind them being number 1
a. The biggest problem I had with what was said isn't that Little Falls is number 1, it's that consider the remaining schedules of the two teams, it was said that if Little Falls wins out, they would still be number 1.
b. Fine, they are number 1 now, St Thomas is number 2 now. If they both win out, considering who they play, shouldn't St Thomas get the nod there?
Still not sure how any of that supports you, most of it supports what I'm saying. But okay.
Last edited by HShockeywatcher on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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scoreboard33
- Posts: 581
- Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:53 pm
First of all, the X isn't a big sheet of ice, it is the same as most, if not all teams play.
Second, we are talking about 3 losses, not 1. 1 loss can be a fluke and can be excused, 3 can't just be written off as a fluke. Little Falls is undefeated and may give up some weak goals and too many to teams that arent't that good, but they have won every game, so I don't think an extra goal here or there really can be used against them.
3rd of all, I understand that STA may be the best team, but they have definitely not played the best this year.
4th, we do have a playoff, so lets not talk about the BCS, its not like our rankings will affect the State Title, they are just a fun thing to arge about and debate.
HShockeywatcher, your points in your last post were good, but I could barely read them because of how you put your post together and fairly certain that others won't even bother to try and decipher what you typed. Put a little more space in them, please, for the sake of me not going insane.
Second, we are talking about 3 losses, not 1. 1 loss can be a fluke and can be excused, 3 can't just be written off as a fluke. Little Falls is undefeated and may give up some weak goals and too many to teams that arent't that good, but they have won every game, so I don't think an extra goal here or there really can be used against them.
3rd of all, I understand that STA may be the best team, but they have definitely not played the best this year.
4th, we do have a playoff, so lets not talk about the BCS, its not like our rankings will affect the State Title, they are just a fun thing to arge about and debate.
HShockeywatcher, your points in your last post were good, but I could barely read them because of how you put your post together and fairly certain that others won't even bother to try and decipher what you typed. Put a little more space in them, please, for the sake of me not going insane.
"Obviously" Little Falls' strength of schedule is figured in too, since they are undefeated in it and are ranked #1.HShockeywatcher wrote:joester,
Their three losses are their first game of the season away where they outshot the other team 2:1, Centennial, who is in the top five in state and Holy Angels, who is potentially a top 3 team.
Your post also doesn't address my main issue. I don't care that St Thomas isn't 1st. I believe they should be, but it's fine if others don't. It simply doesn't make sense to have the three teams below them all have better records than them if you are putting the one team ahead of them ONLY because of their record. SOS is obviously factored in for St Thomas to be #2, if it wasn't, they'd be #5, but since it is factored in, having Little Falls at #1 makes little sense.
I personally feel the rankings are close to dead on except that Little Falls should be down 5 or 6 places, either ahead of or behind SSP.
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HShockeywatcher
- Posts: 6848
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:21 pm
scoreboard,
-I did not know that. But adding that would add to my point of X experience being negligible between the two.
-That is like saying that when Holy Angels losses to Shattuck, Culver or MSC it is like a regular team. A loss is expected going into the games, winning is good.
-How do you figure? I'd say that, given their schedule, compared to many teams (in both classes) they've played quite well.
-I was simply referring to how they weight more recent games more than beginning of the season games, as many ranking systems do.
-If people cannot read an outline, that is sad. But I added more spaces just in case.
defense, being undefeated doesn't make you #1 using SOS; it does when you don't, like in professional sports.
-I did not know that. But adding that would add to my point of X experience being negligible between the two.
-That is like saying that when Holy Angels losses to Shattuck, Culver or MSC it is like a regular team. A loss is expected going into the games, winning is good.
-How do you figure? I'd say that, given their schedule, compared to many teams (in both classes) they've played quite well.
-I was simply referring to how they weight more recent games more than beginning of the season games, as many ranking systems do.
-If people cannot read an outline, that is sad. But I added more spaces just in case.
defense, being undefeated doesn't make you #1 using SOS; it does when you don't, like in professional sports.
However, according to you, record and SOS IS the reason that St. Thomas should (not be #1) but ahead of Little Falls.HShockeywatcher wrote:scoreboard,
-I did not know that. But adding that would add to my point of X experience being negligible between the two.
-That is like saying that when Holy Angels losses to Shattuck, Culver or MSC it is like a regular team. A loss is expected going into the games, winning is good.
-How do you figure? I'd say that, given their schedule, compared to many teams (in both classes) they've played quite well.
-I was simply referring to how they weight more recent games more than beginning of the season games, as many ranking systems do.
-If people cannot read an outline, that is sad. But I added more spaces just in case.
defense, being undefeated doesn't make you #1 using SOS; it does when you don't, like in professional sports.
If being undefeated using SOS does not make you #1, how can it be the factor in deciding that a team is NOT #1?
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hshckfan08
- Posts: 339
- Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:44 pm
1. I AM NOT COMPARING STATE TOURNAMENT EXPERIENCE BETWEEN ST THOMAS AND LITTLE FALLS!!!!!! Do you understand???? IF you would read my posts you would know i said that little falls has state tournament experience, and has performed well in the last 2 years, which justifies that they are a top class A team. Good Lord.
2. If you dont understand point one, STOP. DO not continue, and find someone who can understand English. If you do, then you would know that neither Clemson or Air Force were considered a top team in the NCAA or even in their conference the year before, so they have no foundation to gain respect from others until they earn it by playing at a higher level... Post season
A top TEAM wins games.. period.
As for Hutchinson, please see point number 1.
3. I am extremely interested in knowing where i said that hanowski makes them number 1 or whatever you are getting at.. In fact i have never mentioned shot totals, whined about reffing, or said, but that game was early in the year..
The Marshall, STA game was even until the 3rd period, when DM went into a shell, and guess what, they won. And i guess we should just excuse the loss to Holy Angels because STA was a bit short the whole time, and they are in YOUR top 3. I never said dominated, there is another misquote by you, i said "handled fairly easily". That would be a completely different definition than dominated.
I never said it was a bad thing, but why should they be rewarded with the number 1 ranking for being HANDLED FAIRLY EASILY??
Oh geez more excuses for a loss... I guess we can throw that one out too. Good teams find ways to win.. would you say that alexandria's goalie didnt have an amazing night? They still won the game, and im pretty sure most people would say Hemmingway is better than the SSP goalie.
"Little Falls, on the other hand, has no games against top teams, period." So you had STA and SCC at one and two, and now you are saying they havnt played a top team?? I am confused!
4. Once again, not comparing STA and Little Fall's state experience..
"Like Gopher basketball, Little Falls was pretty good last year and not very good the year before"
Little falls was at the state tournament 2 years ago and almost beat the eventual state champion... the gophers were something like 12-18
5. Your first post in this thread- "I have no problem with someone saying that St Thomas isn't #1, St Thomas isn't my issue at all, it's more LF at 1"
All i can say is WOW..
2. If you dont understand point one, STOP. DO not continue, and find someone who can understand English. If you do, then you would know that neither Clemson or Air Force were considered a top team in the NCAA or even in their conference the year before, so they have no foundation to gain respect from others until they earn it by playing at a higher level... Post season
A top TEAM wins games.. period.
As for Hutchinson, please see point number 1.
3. I am extremely interested in knowing where i said that hanowski makes them number 1 or whatever you are getting at.. In fact i have never mentioned shot totals, whined about reffing, or said, but that game was early in the year..
The Marshall, STA game was even until the 3rd period, when DM went into a shell, and guess what, they won. And i guess we should just excuse the loss to Holy Angels because STA was a bit short the whole time, and they are in YOUR top 3. I never said dominated, there is another misquote by you, i said "handled fairly easily". That would be a completely different definition than dominated.
I never said it was a bad thing, but why should they be rewarded with the number 1 ranking for being HANDLED FAIRLY EASILY??
Oh geez more excuses for a loss... I guess we can throw that one out too. Good teams find ways to win.. would you say that alexandria's goalie didnt have an amazing night? They still won the game, and im pretty sure most people would say Hemmingway is better than the SSP goalie.
"Little Falls, on the other hand, has no games against top teams, period." So you had STA and SCC at one and two, and now you are saying they havnt played a top team?? I am confused!
4. Once again, not comparing STA and Little Fall's state experience..
"Like Gopher basketball, Little Falls was pretty good last year and not very good the year before"
Little falls was at the state tournament 2 years ago and almost beat the eventual state champion... the gophers were something like 12-18
5. Your first post in this thread- "I have no problem with someone saying that St Thomas isn't #1, St Thomas isn't my issue at all, it's more LF at 1"
All i can say is WOW..
A few things. If Saint Thomas wants to stay in class A maybe they should stop playing a class AA schedule. They have proven they can play with the big boys so move up. SOS is overrated. Let me jump sports for a second. THERE WAS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR OKLAHOMA JUMPING TEXAS IN COLLEGE FOOTBALL! ST. THOMAS IS PLAYING IN CLASS A! IF YOU WANT TO USE MINNETONKA, HOLY ANGELS, HILL MURRAY, ETC, IN THE DISCUSSION FOR RANKINGS THEN PLAY CLASS AA. SOS PUTS THAT IN OUR HEADS AND TEXAS COULD HAVE DEFINATELY REPRESENTED BETTER IN THE NATIONAL TITLE GAME! This is class A hockey so how have you done against other class A teams? Little Falls is living up to a classic class A team. They have just hit the scene as being good around 4 years ago and after this run they will most likely fall off like any true class A team should do. How many PUBLIC class A teams stay solid for a longer period of time than 5 years at a time? Stop ripping LF's schedule just because this is how a true class A team's cycle goes. LF is number one right now.