Best defensive defensemen out there...who are they?

Hansonbrother · Post by **Hansonbrother** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:15 pm

I brought this up on the "Class of 2010 Goal Scorers" blog as I was complaining how you never hear about the best defensive defensemen. I want to know who isn't going to show up on a scoring chart but is the heart and soul of a team. Can some people chime in here and let me know who some of the best are? Even if they are offensive, I'd still like to hear who the best D are in the state, but even more so, who are the D that are getting overlooked because they are so defensive?

joehockey · Post by **joehockey** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:35 am

This is obviously a tough or not very exciting topic for most - D is not as exciting or as easy to pick the stand outs as either forward or goalie where results go on the scoreboard. The best D are kind of there to "protect and serve" - stop the rush and start the counter attack if they can jump up in the play big bonus. Few can or have to do what a Kelsay Romotowski, Erika Wheelhouse or Rose Alleva - stop the other team and then contribute a sizeable amount of your teams scoring.

This was the Phase III D last spring at U16 and the stats off the coaches site which are not complete only reporting what is there - (Audrey Hanmer was hurt but supposed to be in group and went At Large to Rochester so I included). Stats don't show and not many people watch a D unless they get beat, or take a penalty at a critical time. There are a lot of good D this is a sub set and probably any team would love to have any of these D. The ones in bold went to NDP as a U15 or U16 or both.

As an old goalie the best person to ask on this topic might be the goalies (or the goalie parents) "who do you think are the best D" - I think they could produce the unsung D stars. This is a tremendous group and outside of thier teams may not be very well known but all very talented. I know there are many other D across the state this is just a partial group to add to the discussion.

2007-08
07 NDP 08 NDP School Class G A Points
Rose Alleva X X Red Wing 2010 27 9 36
Audrey Hanmer X X Forest Lake 2011 11 7 18
Brenna Flatley Minnetonka 2010 3 13 16
Melissa Borer X BSM 2010 2 14 16
Catie Ladner X Chaska 2010 3 11 14
Morgan Illikainen X Grand Rapids 2011 6 8 14
Madison Marzario X SSM (70 games) 2010 2 10 12
Maddie Marcotte X White Bear 2010 1 10 11
Francie Pinche X X E. Grand Forks 2010 5 5 10
Greer Vogl Edina 2011 2 7 9
Megan Dalbec Champlin Park 2010 6 2 8
Allie Duellman Roseville 2010 3 4 7
Maggie Pendleton X X Hill Murray 2010 0 5 5
Stephanie Hatcher Lakeville 2010 4 1 5
Sonya DeBruzzi X Centennial 2010 1 2 3
Maddie Bergh BSM 2010 2 1 3
Kelly Thotland Edina 2011 1 1 2
Danielle Lobejko Coon Rapids 2010 0 1 1

OntheEdge · Post by **OntheEdge** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:16 am

joehockey wrote:This is obviously a tough or not very exciting topic for most - D is not as exciting or as easy to pick the stand outs as either forward or goalie where results go on the scoreboard. The best D are kind of there to "protect and serve" - stop the rush and start the counter attack if they can jump up in the play big bonus. Few can or have to do what a Kelsay Romotowski, Erika Wheelhouse or Rose Alleva - stop the other team and then contribute a sizeable amount of your teams scoring.

This was the Phase III D last spring at U16 and the stats off the coaches site which are not complete only reporting what is there - (Audrey Hanmer was hurt but supposed to be in group and went At Large to Rochester so I included). Stats don't show and not many people watch a D unless they get beat, or take a penalty at a critical time. There are a lot of good D this is a sub set and probably any team would love to have any of these D. The ones in bold went to NDP as a U15 or U16 or both.

As an old goalie the best person to ask on this topic might be the goalies (or the goalie parents) "who do you think are the best D" - I think they could produce the unsung D stars. This is a tremendous group and outside of thier teams may not be very well known but all very talented. I know there are many other D across the state this is just a partial group to add to the discussion.

2007-08
07 NDP 08 NDP School Class G A Points
Rose Alleva X X Red Wing 2010 27 9 36
Audrey Hanmer X X Forest Lake 2011 11 7 18
Brenna Flatley Minnetonka 2010 3 13 16
Melissa Borer X BSM 2010 2 14 16
Catie Ladner X Chaska 2010 3 11 14
Morgan Illikainen X Grand Rapids 2011 6 8 14
Madison Marzario X SSM (70 games) 2010 2 10 12
Maddie Marcotte X White Bear 2010 1 10 11
Francie Pinche X X E. Grand Forks 2010 5 5 10
Greer Vogl Edina 2011 2 7 9
Megan Dalbec Champlin Park 2010 6 2 8
Allie Duellman Roseville 2010 3 4 7
Maggie Pendleton X X Hill Murray 2010 0 5 5
Stephanie Hatcher Lakeville 2010 4 1 5
Sonya DeBruzzi X Centennial 2010 1 2 3
Maddie Bergh BSM 2010 2 1 3
Kelly Thotland Edina 2011 1 1 2
Danielle Lobejko Coon Rapids 2010 0 1 1

Its a good start but there are others since this list is only the 92s that tried out for the Adv 16 program. I agree its tough to measure the best defensive D. It might be just a little bit easier if +/- stats were published (I know most coaches keep these stats for themselves but you won't find them published anywhere). Even though such stats have some of the same problems as goals scored or assists, they would be a good way to start when comparing players. Looking at +/- stats and comparing them against other D from similar teams (or the same team) (i.e. teams with similar strength of schedules) would be very helpful although it doesn't take into account the variability of goaltending, the team's particular defensive and offensive scheme (e.g. some teams play the wings high on the breakout which puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the D to get the puck out and/or some teams like to pinch the D which is aggressive but leaves the D vunerable) and the presence of good back checking forwards always helps out the D.

Melvin44 · Post by **Melvin44** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:00 pm

+/- is such an over valuated stat. I feel in means very little as a person can get a plus if she happens to come off the bench and a goal is scored. Also some players play 30+ minutes a game killing penalties and playing the power play and will be scored on more. Goalies are also very important to +/- you can have the best D in the world and still get scored on. You are right about back checking forwards help so much.

If my daughter played for Roseville, Stillwater, Blake, Hopkins, Edina, EP (last year) etc I would say +/- was a very important stat.

I like to watch D and what I watch for is who's playing the situation correct. Who's marking up in front. Who can beat the first player. Who can clear the zone, who makes the pass etc.

I like 2009's Romatowski, Martinson, Wheelhouse. Haller is also solid.

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:39 pm

Melvin44 wrote:+/- is such an over valuated stat. I feel in means very little as a person can get a plus if she happens to come off the bench and a goal is scored. Also some players play 30+ minutes a game killing penalties and playing the power play and will be scored on more.

+/- is useful only for evaluating players on an individual team and only over the course of a half-dozen games or more. For example, you can't compare one player's +/- who's on a great team that plays a weaker schedule to another who's on a weak team that plays a tough schedule. Plus, one or two games don't mean much as anything can happen.

Also in your post your reference penalties and power plays, these do not count in a player's +/-. Only goals scored at even strength figure into it.

Melvin44 · Post by **Melvin44** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:15 pm

Yes, I realize +/- doesn't apply on PP and PK's my point was that player's who play both plus a regular shift will be more tired and therefore might be penalized by a goal.

Hansonbrother · Post by **Hansonbrother** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:35 pm

I'm not big on stats and i'm not sold on NDP tryouts either. I've been told by a close friend of mine that one of his best defensemen didn't even make it past the first NDP tryout. Now normally i'd be willing to say that maybe this player wasn't good enough. But, this player came from a top 5 double A school, and when I spoke to Winny Brodt about this player not making it, she shook her head in disbelief. She just said that there was no way in her mind that this player didn't get a lot farther and that the only thing that she could think of that may of held her back was that she isn't very offensive. I also know that there is a D1 school already mapping this player. So obviously there is talent there.

joehockey · Post by **joehockey** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:16 am

"....I was complaining how you never hear about the best defensive defensemen. I want to know who isn't going to show up on a scoring chart but is the heart and soul of a team. Can some people chime in here and let me know who some of the best are? Even if they are offensive, I'd still like to hear who the best D are in the state, but even more so, who are the D that are getting overlooked because they are so defensive?"

Ok so I don't see many names....only discount of posts does that mean there are not top of mind "Defensive Definsive Leaders" anyone can point to or post - I think that is what this post was asking?

My reason for posting the NDP stats/names was there is a very wide spread on stats - it is also a way to look at kids across sections and the state - which as the posts say you can't compare stats because of varying levels of competition. The Phase III group listed were all good and there were probably good D left out at Phase II and maybe Phase I depending on the section? In our U16 section which is the pretty strong eastside of metro there were not a lot of kids left out of Phase I because I think only 3-4 total didn't advance to Phase II because there were not a lot of kids who went out - it may become more of an issue if more kids tryout? Love it or hate it is a set of D pretty good at defense and game - with 6 D spots at U15 and U16 and 4-5 at U17 a lot of good players don't make it to NDP. We also know for many reasons (school nomination - maybe, spring sports, spring break trips, inujury) some kids aren't in the process. And all of us can probably point to some great kids who didn't advance as discussed "eye of the beholder" but to thier programs they are still huge assets and top players.

So who are those over looked "Defensive D" as the post asked..... HansonBros. - who are yours? I know there are a lot out there that people see and think highly of.

OntheEdge · Post by **OntheEdge** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:46 am

joehockey wrote:"....I was complaining how you never hear about the best defensive defensemen. I want to know who isn't going to show up on a scoring chart but is the heart and soul of a team. Can some people chime in here and let me know who some of the best are? Even if they are offensive, I'd still like to hear who the best D are in the state, but even more so, who are the D that are getting overlooked because they are so defensive?"

Ok so I don't see many names....only discount of posts does that mean there are not top of mind "Defensive Definsive Leaders" anyone can point to or post - I think that is what this post was asking?

My reason for posting the NDP stats/names was there is a very wide spread on stats - it is also a way to look at kids across sections and the state - which as the posts say you can't compare stats because of varying levels of competition. The Phase III group listed were all good and there were probably good D left out at Phase II and maybe Phase I depending on the section? In our U16 section which is the pretty strong eastside of metro there were not a lot of kids left out of Phase I because I think only 3-4 total didn't advance to Phase II because there were not a lot of kids who went out - it may become more of an issue if more kids tryout? Love it or hate it is a set of D pretty good at defense and game - with 6 D spots at U15 and U16 and 4-5 at U17 a lot of good players don't make it to NDP. We also know for many reasons (school nomination - maybe, spring sports, spring break trips, inujury) some kids aren't in the process. And all of us can probably point to some great kids who didn't advance as discussed "eye of the beholder" but to thier programs they are still huge assets and top players.

So who are those over looked "Defensive D" as the post asked..... HansonBros. - who are yours? I know there are a lot out there that people see and think highly of.

Joe,

I'll contribute.

If I had to pick one D to anchor my team it would be Janessa Haller of Anoka. Of course I haven't seen all the players in the state but in my opinion she's the smartest and toughest D players I've seen and has a great feel for the game.

In the category of most overlooked/underrated I would have to say Laura Hinueber of Edina. She doesn't play AAA, didn't try out for NDP and maybe isn't the most individually skilled player so you rarely hear of her but if you watched the Edina team last winter she was an impact player and maybe Edina's most effective D player last year.

neutralregroup · Post by **neutralregroup** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:19 pm

Agreed on the Anoka & Edina choices... another '09 that will catch quite a few eyes this season will be Domass from BSM... She manages all 3 zones effectively, and has a bit of scoring touch to her.... plus a physical force in front of her goalie.

SEMetro · Post by **SEMetro** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:49 pm

I'm not a big fan of "defensive defensemen" lists. It's kind of a list for good position players that may have weak shots or stickhandling skills. An elite defenseman, especially for stronger girls teams, likely plays around half the game and plays on all PP with talented players.

Strong shot + many PPs + good team should result in significant points from a D (or forward). You really have to question an "elite" label on players with extremely modest stats, defense or forward.

hockeyrube7 · Post by **hockeyrube7** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:12 pm

SEMetro wrote:I'm not a big fan of "defensive defensemen" lists. It's kind of a list for good position players that may have weak shots or stickhandling skills. An elite defenseman, especially for stronger girls teams, likely plays around half the game and plays on all PP with talented players.

Strong shot + many PPs + good team should result in significant points from a D (or forward). You really have to question an "elite" label on players with extremely modest stats, defense or forward.

Couldn't disagree more here. Defense is the hardest position to rate, as there is no real stat that makes them stand out. It is a very situation position. +/- might be the clostest, but is such a judgemental stat, that it tends to lead to bad decisions, this is why stats aren't for everyone. Why did the kid just coming on the ice get a minus when it was a bad change by the player coming off. Goals aren't a great indicator, as when I look at the stats from last season, some of the best D in the state, going D1, have very few goals. Assist's maybe, but how many times do you see 2 or three assists handed out on a goal that a kid just picked the puck and scored, or 2 assists to kids sitting on the bench. It's all subjective. I think what those here are looking for are some names others might not have heard of? Although, some might be looking to see their own kids name posted also... Which ever way it is, we are just looking to see what other D are out there.

Could agree more with Melvin44's take on the 2009's, all 4 are fantastic and strong D.

finance_gal · Post by **finance_gal** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:15 pm

People that think defensive players or goal scorers win games are fools!! The thing that is wins games on all levels are the well rounded players, Many great goal scorers won't go into the corners and a lot of defensive players just hang back and wait for the big stop and that just isn't the route to the championship. Winning is the result of players doing what's right when everything around them is going wrong, being able to go into the corners and come out with the puck, winning key faceoffs or at least tying up the opponent so that they don't win the faceoff. Hockey is a game of mistakes and recovery, not waiting at center ice for the long passes, it involves backchecking, forchecking, skating, passing and shooting. It involves screening the goalies, lifting the sticks and solid passes. Nothing makes me sicker that to see a so called goal scorer think they do it all on there own because that player is far from the key to a good team.

Melvin44 · Post by **Melvin44** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:16 pm

I'll also have to disagree with SEMetro. I can't tell you how many times a D will start the play and never get a 2nd assist or a D that will drive a slap shot to the net and have it tipped by a opposing player and not get an assist after a goal. Look at any college team and you'll have 4 or 5 Defensive D and 1 or 2 Offensive. I do agree that a D player should have more assists than goals maybe even 3 assists to every 1 goal.

Other 2009 D's I like are Magnussen and Wedell, Morris who are huge for their teams. I'm sure I'm forgetting players so feel free to help me out.

SEMetro · Post by **SEMetro** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:25 am

D1 defensemen are going to get their points against high school competition. Look at the stats of the defensemen going D1 this year. You are going to find mostly 20, 30, 40+ point players. Heck, most goalies get an assist or two per season.

joehockey · Post by **joehockey** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:23 am

Here are the figures stats from the Coaches site and the list Hux compiles from the College Board. A total of 13 D were in largest MN class 10 played HS. The range was wide the averages: 10.5 goal; 15.6 assists; 26.1 total points. Note the last number which is the rank out of all HS D based on total points - just scoring points (or looking at those stats) will not equal a D1 spot.

G A TP School Rank
Kelly Seeler D USA 18s/Eden Prairie 16 36 52 Minnesota 2
Anne Schleper D USA 18s/St. Cloud Cathedral 26 19 45 Minnesota 3
Ashley Duffy D Benidle-St. Margaret's 18 16 34 Cornell 10
Ashley Holmes D USA 18s/Alexandria 11 20 31 N. Dakota 16
Ariel Mackley D Burnsville 8 12 20 Colgate 40
Brittany Carlson D Cretin Derham Hall 4 16 20 Ohio State 41
Kelly Wild D USA 18s/Cretin-Derham Hall 9 11 20 Ohio State 42
Montana Vichorek D CEC 9 11 20 Bemidji 43
Brittany DeBoer D Spring Lake Park 1 10 11 Bemidji 107
Jaclyn Daggit D Park Cottage Grove 3 5 8 St. Cloud State 166
Average 10.5 15.6 26.1

Not Included
Monique Weber F/D Elk River
Sierra Vadner D Thoroughbreds
Jocey Kleiber D NSA

Melvin44 · Post by **Melvin44** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:47 am

SE

Of course D1 caliber players are going to get points! It does depend on WHO you play and WHAT section you play in. Example St Cloud State D1 player Jac Daggit great player who played for Park in a tough conference didn't score 20 pts. Saw her play with Jr Whitecaps and her high school and was/is a top D. Brittany Carlson who I feel is another great D1 player (plays both ways) had 5 goals and 17 assist’s 22 pts. 15-25 pts in a tough conference/schedule is a nice number.

Yes, if a D who is given a green light to take the puck and go every shift against week competition will score 30+ points. That isn't exactly playing D. Again what I disagree with you about is just because a D scores 30+ goals doesn't necessarily mean she's a great D. A D can also benefit from having a high scoring forward/s.

SEMetro · Post by **SEMetro** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:30 am

So what we established is darn near every D1 kid on stronger AA teams got at least 20 points, which was my original point. Also, didn't the U-18s miss a couple weeks of games (x-mas tourneys)? I think that would put your average points more in the 30+ range.

As I mentioned before, if you play for a weaker team, there may be a explanation for lower stats. Daggit was probably close to being Park's leading scorer a couple times. Her bio at SCSU reads:

Graduated from Park High School in 2008...lettered five times in girls’ hockey for the PHS Wolfpack...coached by Darren Reiter...served as team captain for the past two seasons...two-time Suburban East All-Conferene choice and was named her team’s MVP after the 2006-07 season...scored 75 career points for the Wolfpack, including 28 goals as a defender...selected to the U.S. National Players’ Development Camp for the past three summers...also participated in golf and soccer at Park High School.

joehockey · Post by **joehockey** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:00 pm

Ok agreed 20 points looks to be a benchmark. I don't know this group's history as well but most of them were NDP also, maybe all though tough to compare as there were some double birth years over their time:

Kelly Seeler - NDP/U18
Anne Schleper - NDP/U18
Ashley Duffy - NDP
Ashley Holmes - NDP/U18 August games
Ariel Mackley - ?
Brittany Carlson - NDP out of WI/Central Dist.
Kelly Wild - NDP/U18
Montana Vichorek - NDP?
Brittany DeBoer - ?
Jaclyn Daggit - NDP

Other items that makes for a great D are shots blocked/denied, ability to run a great break out and regroup very well - those aren't direct stats but probably things that make a D great appreciated they do lots of little things right to help their team that the average fan doesn't get - this group all played D very well.

Silent But Deadly · Post by **Silent But Deadly** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:04 pm

joehockey wrote:Ok agreed 20 points looks to be a benchmark. I don't know this group's history as well but most of them were NDP also, maybe all though tough to compare as there were some double birth years over their time:

Kelly Seeler - NDP/U18
Anne Schleper - NDP/U18
Ashley Duffy - NDP
Ashley Holmes - NDP/U18 August games
Ariel Mackley - ?
Brittany Carlson - NDP out of WI/Central Dist.
Kelly Wild - NDP/U18
Montana Vichorek - NDP?
Brittany DeBoer - ?
Jaclyn Daggit - NDP

Other items that makes for a great D are shots blocked/denied, ability to run a great break out and regroup very well - those aren't direct stats but probably things that make a D great appreciated they do lots of little things right to help their team that the average fan doesn't get - this group all played D very well.

Great thoughts Joe. Also, winning the battles in the corner...way up there on my list!

neutralregroup · Post by **neutralregroup** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:11 pm

Another key to goalies "best friends" (Defensive defenseman) is the willingness to STAY in front of a shot or two every game, without doing the "flamingo" (screening your goalie and lifting one skate!).

I fall into the group that believes the defense has the toughest position on the ice, with more demands on a variety of skills than ANY of the forward positions. Producing points from the blue line should be looked at as a big bonus, NOT a priority!

quickfeet · Post by **quickfeet** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:17 pm

A true defenseman is the hardest position to judge. You really need to watch a game and watch the individual to determine if they really are a defensive defenseman.

A few tips on what they do best.

They get the puck out of the zone.
They dig in the corners.
They are strong in front of their own net.
They have a great shot from the point.
They hold the blue line.
They pinch at the right time.
They get the puck down low.
They stop the one on ones.
They skate backwards faster then they do forward.
They do the little things well with or without the puck.
They don’t get much credit but strive on doing their job well.
Their attitude is team first.
They are the kids that a coach and team can rely on.
They are extremely hard workers.

If you have one of these girls on your team, CONGRATULATIONS!

It is hard to evaluate a defensive defenseman so I would not put to much into NDP

Silent But Deadly · Post by **Silent But Deadly** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:29 pm

quickfeet wrote:A true defenseman is the hardest position to judge. You really need to watch a game and watch the individual to determine if they really are a defensive defenseman.

A few tips on what they do best.

They get the puck out of the zone.
They dig in the corners.
They are strong in front of their own net.
They have a great shot from the point.
They hold the blue line.
They pinch at the right time.
They get the puck down low.
They stop the one on ones.
They skate backwards faster then they do forward.
They do the little things well with or without the puck.
They don’t get much credit but strive on doing their job well.
Their attitude is team first.
They are the kids that a coach and team can rely on.
They are extremely hard workers.

If you have one of these girls on your team, CONGRATULATIONS!

It is hard to evaluate a defensive defenseman so I would not put to much into NDP

Great post!

hockeyrube7 · Post by **hockeyrube7** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:25 pm

quickfeet wrote:A true defenseman is the hardest position to judge. You really need to watch a game and watch the individual to determine if they really are a defensive defenseman.

A few tips on what they do best.

They get the puck out of the zone.
They dig in the corners.
They are strong in front of their own net.
They have a great shot from the point.
They hold the blue line.
They pinch at the right time.
They get the puck down low.
They stop the one on ones.
They skate backwards faster then they do forward.
They do the little things well with or without the puck.
They don’t get much credit but strive on doing their job well.
Their attitude is team first.
They are the kids that a coach and team can rely on.
They are extremely hard workers.

If you have one of these girls on your team, CONGRATULATIONS!

It is hard to evaluate a defensive defenseman so I would not put to much into NDP

Perfect! I just don't think goals/points can be a good measure of a good D, great team or not. All of these here can be.

jumpstart · Post by **jumpstart** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:52 am

quickfeet wrote:A true defenseman is the hardest position to judge. You really need to watch a game and watch the individual to determine if they really are a defensive defenseman.

A few tips on what they do best.

They get the puck out of the zone.
They dig in the corners.
They are strong in front of their own net.
They have a great shot from the point.
They hold the blue line.
They pinch at the right time.
They get the puck down low.
They stop the one on ones.
They skate backwards faster then they do forward.
They do the little things well with or without the puck.
They don’t get much credit but strive on doing their job well.
Their attitude is team first.
They are the kids that a coach and team can rely on.
They are extremely hard workers.

If you have one of these girls on your team, CONGRATULATIONS!

It is hard to evaluate a defensive defenseman so I would not put to much into NDP

I want to commend you on a great post. As the parent of a defensive-minded defenseman, I believe that everything you have listed here is what makes a defenseman strong and a value to her team. When I watch games (and I usually am watching the defense more than the offense), I will keep these attributes in mind. Thank you for the wonderful insight.