Thoughts on what type of grind? or is it just personal preference?
Would a shallow grind force a skater to be better with his center of gravity
and ankle control and allow for a little better speed. If so would younger
skaters benefit more from this since it would force them to skate with better
form.
Skate Sharpening deep or shallow hollow
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
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the one to love
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Although I've sharpened my own skates dozens of times, I do not know what a cross grind is. Can you enlighten me?the one to love wrote:actually it will only take one cross grind then a normal sharpening to correct it. half dozen times is 100% unnecessary and just grinding down the blade.
As for my preference -- definitely hollow. I don't need to go flying into the boards when I'm trying to turn the corner at top speed. Although, now that I play men's league, it's not like this occurs very often so it doesn't really matter.
Nothing like back in the day.-
the one to love
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- Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:12 am
cross grinding is that wheel that runs vertical in contrast to the actual sharpening wheel running horizontal. The skates would get cross ground if they have lots of nicks (sp) in them (such as outdoor skating or walking on lots of sand or something). It basically gives the blade a fresh surface to work with and is much easier for adjusting the height of the skate holder so they get an even, and thorough sharpening across the whole length of the blade.
This make sense?
This make sense?
I think so. Never used one of those.the one to love wrote:cross grinding is that wheel that runs vertical in contrast to the actual sharpening wheel running horizontal. The skates would get cross ground if they have lots of nicks (sp) in them (such as outdoor skating or walking on lots of sand or something). It basically gives the blade a fresh surface to work with and is much easier for adjusting the height of the skate holder so they get an even, and thorough sharpening across the whole length of the blade.
This make sense?
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the one to love
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hawkeynut08
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SKATE SHARPENING DEEP OR SHALLOW HOLLOW
It is personnal preference. The skater wants to be able to play as aggressive as they want and still be able to stay on their feet. For example alot of forwards skate on a shallower grind so they can skate faster. The shallower the grind the less drag they have. I have sharpened skates for one of the UMD forwards and he is skating on a 7/8" grind. This is like a goalie grind. I know that Mario Lemoux skated on a 1" grind. Alot of this has to do with the body weight of the skater and how well the use their edges. A skater needs to experiment with the grind they want. Also it depends on the ice surface they are skating on. Whether it is soft ice or really hard.
The problem is unless you take your skates to a reliable shop you are more than likely going to get whatever they have the grinding wheel set. Also most shops are not using diamond stones. With the large amount of stainless in the new blades these days they are easy to sharpen but difficult to stone to remove all of the burs. Even with the pink softer grinding wheels.
The problem is unless you take your skates to a reliable shop you are more than likely going to get whatever they have the grinding wheel set. Also most shops are not using diamond stones. With the large amount of stainless in the new blades these days they are easy to sharpen but difficult to stone to remove all of the burs. Even with the pink softer grinding wheels.
Skate Radius
It depends on the player's preference, though generally smaller, quicker or younger skaters can benefit from a deeper hollow (smaller radius) that will help them turn and change directions more quickly. With a smaller radius, the blade will cut deeper into the ice, resulting in a slower glide. A larger player might prefer a larger radius.
Another use of the term radius refers to profiling or “rockering” the blade (rounding off the front and rear of the blade so it doesn't sit flat on the ice). Here’s a pretty good article explaining profiling.
http://www.weatherimagery.com/blog/hock ... -countour/
As for hollow grinding, I sharpen anywhere between 3/8" and 3/4" radius, depending on the player. After several years of driving around town trying to find a shop that did a consistently good job, I gave up and bought my own sharpener, a Wissota, a few years back. It has already paid for itself. I get a great result and don’t have to worry about finding an open shop before an early morning skate. Wissota’s president, Bill Schuessler, provides great training and follow-up service. Also, you can learn a lot about sharpening just from their website. And no, I am not associated with Wissota, I am just a satisfied customer.
http://www.wissota.com/
Another use of the term radius refers to profiling or “rockering” the blade (rounding off the front and rear of the blade so it doesn't sit flat on the ice). Here’s a pretty good article explaining profiling.
http://www.weatherimagery.com/blog/hock ... -countour/
As for hollow grinding, I sharpen anywhere between 3/8" and 3/4" radius, depending on the player. After several years of driving around town trying to find a shop that did a consistently good job, I gave up and bought my own sharpener, a Wissota, a few years back. It has already paid for itself. I get a great result and don’t have to worry about finding an open shop before an early morning skate. Wissota’s president, Bill Schuessler, provides great training and follow-up service. Also, you can learn a lot about sharpening just from their website. And no, I am not associated with Wissota, I am just a satisfied customer.
http://www.wissota.com/
Would you mind outing the joint that did this?61ache wrote:Hollow. Flat ground if for figure skaters. Never even heard about hockey players flat grinding until I had a shop in the cities sharpen my skates. What idiot is going to flat grind a hollow grind out? Had to sharpen my skates about a half dozen times before I had a good edge again.
I can't even remember it was so long ago. I know it was in Roseville, but not the place over on Rice Street in Little Canada (can't remember the name) they actually do an alright job. Best job I've found in the cities is the bike shop over in WBL. They do an awesome job!mnhcp wrote:Would you mind outing the joint that did this?61ache wrote:Hollow. Flat ground if for figure skaters. Never even heard about hockey players flat grinding until I had a shop in the cities sharpen my skates. What idiot is going to flat grind a hollow grind out? Had to sharpen my skates about a half dozen times before I had a good edge again.
x 1. What do most arenas have their sharpeners set at as most people don't ask?
Answered by "The One to Love": "The standard hollow for hockey skates is 1/2"-5/8". some players prefer differently though. "
x 2. Crossgrinding: Is this what a good shop does before sharpening a new set of skates. I know some stores charge more for sharpening "never before" sharpened skates?
Answered by "One to Love": "If a store charges more for "never sharpened before" skates that is ridiculous. It takes the same amount of work as sharpening a regularly used pair of skates. If anything, it might require a light cross grind, and maybe a few extra passes on the sharpening wheel."
x 3. If they don't Crossgrind what do they do instead? Is this maybe what was meant when one sharpener said to me "it takes a few sharpenings to get into the groove"?
Answered by "Halla": "I would not be skeptical of a place that did not have a crossgrinder. It is apparently helpful when blades are brand new or have worn so dull they need more than just a simple sharpening. It sounds like a crossgrinder can make it right without grinding down as much metal as if you just use a regular sharpener and go at it for a while. This is significant, but barely significant, I would guess, if this only happens once in the life of the blades."
x 4. Should we be skeptical of a skate sharpening store/shop that does not even own a Crossgrinder even if not needed for a standard sharpening?
Answered as part of question #3
x 5. What really is a goalie cut? 1" or a 7/8".
Answered by "One to Love": "Goalie hollows are at 1" because they dont want sharp blades. They want to be able to shuffle cleanly and be able to slide back and forth and not have their edges catch on the ice."
Answered by"TPSKohoHockey20": "the greatest goalie cut skate, is a 1"shallow at the center of the blade, moving to a 2" deeper cut on the heel and the toe of the skate. it works out perfect, and the shuffles are incredible"
6. Without too much detail, what is a figure skating cut? 1" or 7/8"
By "61Ache": "Hollow. Flat ground if for figure skaters."
7. Admitting my ignorance: Help me with terminology: What about balancing or is it leveling the edges? That little tool, what is it called? No ones mentioned this ie an uneven edges. Should that be an automatic red flag if the you don't see your skate sharpening shop check this as part of a routine sharpening? I'm since adding the term "out of square" which seems to be the more proper term.
Answer from "2 to Love": http://www.maximumedge.ca/ . On this site is the Quicksquare for Professional Use and the Skate Gauge for Personal Use. They both come w/ the magnetic angle per email from store.
I also found this gadget: http://www.pro-filer.com/html/hdi.htm to detect uneven edges.
x 8. How do a blades edges get so far out of balance? After a bad experience at IGH one parent told me it was probably set for a figure skater and not changed back. I'm not sure what that meant....do figure skaters skate with uneven edges? I've since added "out of square" which is the same as "uneven edges" as it seems to be the correct term.
Answer by "One to Love": "The way that a skate can be uneven is because not all skates are the same. Each time you put it into the holder (device that slides and the skate rests on) you need to check how high or low the skate is by tapping the blade lightly on the regular grinding wheel (after its been lightly cross ground). Those tap marks should be right in the middle of the blade (front and back)"
Also answered by "One to Love": "That happened because the skate holder was either too high, or too low depending on which edge was lower."
"Halla" said: "Adding to the comments on uneven edges: that comment about being set for figure skates makes no sense."
Answered by "The One to Love": "The standard hollow for hockey skates is 1/2"-5/8". some players prefer differently though. "
x 2. Crossgrinding: Is this what a good shop does before sharpening a new set of skates. I know some stores charge more for sharpening "never before" sharpened skates?
Answered by "One to Love": "If a store charges more for "never sharpened before" skates that is ridiculous. It takes the same amount of work as sharpening a regularly used pair of skates. If anything, it might require a light cross grind, and maybe a few extra passes on the sharpening wheel."
x 3. If they don't Crossgrind what do they do instead? Is this maybe what was meant when one sharpener said to me "it takes a few sharpenings to get into the groove"?
Answered by "Halla": "I would not be skeptical of a place that did not have a crossgrinder. It is apparently helpful when blades are brand new or have worn so dull they need more than just a simple sharpening. It sounds like a crossgrinder can make it right without grinding down as much metal as if you just use a regular sharpener and go at it for a while. This is significant, but barely significant, I would guess, if this only happens once in the life of the blades."
x 4. Should we be skeptical of a skate sharpening store/shop that does not even own a Crossgrinder even if not needed for a standard sharpening?
Answered as part of question #3
x 5. What really is a goalie cut? 1" or a 7/8".
Answered by "One to Love": "Goalie hollows are at 1" because they dont want sharp blades. They want to be able to shuffle cleanly and be able to slide back and forth and not have their edges catch on the ice."
Answered by"TPSKohoHockey20": "the greatest goalie cut skate, is a 1"shallow at the center of the blade, moving to a 2" deeper cut on the heel and the toe of the skate. it works out perfect, and the shuffles are incredible"
6. Without too much detail, what is a figure skating cut? 1" or 7/8"
By "61Ache": "Hollow. Flat ground if for figure skaters."
7. Admitting my ignorance: Help me with terminology: What about balancing or is it leveling the edges? That little tool, what is it called? No ones mentioned this ie an uneven edges. Should that be an automatic red flag if the you don't see your skate sharpening shop check this as part of a routine sharpening? I'm since adding the term "out of square" which seems to be the more proper term.
Answer from "2 to Love": http://www.maximumedge.ca/ . On this site is the Quicksquare for Professional Use and the Skate Gauge for Personal Use. They both come w/ the magnetic angle per email from store.
I also found this gadget: http://www.pro-filer.com/html/hdi.htm to detect uneven edges.
x 8. How do a blades edges get so far out of balance? After a bad experience at IGH one parent told me it was probably set for a figure skater and not changed back. I'm not sure what that meant....do figure skaters skate with uneven edges? I've since added "out of square" which is the same as "uneven edges" as it seems to be the correct term.
Answer by "One to Love": "The way that a skate can be uneven is because not all skates are the same. Each time you put it into the holder (device that slides and the skate rests on) you need to check how high or low the skate is by tapping the blade lightly on the regular grinding wheel (after its been lightly cross ground). Those tap marks should be right in the middle of the blade (front and back)"
Also answered by "One to Love": "That happened because the skate holder was either too high, or too low depending on which edge was lower."
"Halla" said: "Adding to the comments on uneven edges: that comment about being set for figure skates makes no sense."
Last edited by mnhcp on Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:07 pm, edited 18 times in total.
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the one to love
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:12 am
as far as the evenness goes. The way that a skate can be uneven is because not all skates are the same. Each time you put it into the holder (device that slides and the skate rests on) you need to check how high or low the skate is by tapping the blade lightly on the regular grinding wheel (after its been lightly cross ground). Those tap marks should be right in the middle of the blade (front and back)
The standard hollow for hockey skates is 1/2"-5/8". some players prefer differently though.
If a store charges more for "never sharpened before" skates that is ridiculous. It takes the same amount of work as sharpening a regularly used pair of skates. If anything, it might require a light cross grind, and maybe a few extra passes on the sharpening wheel.
Goalie hollows are at 1" because they dont want sharp blades. They want to be able to shuffle cleanly and be able to slide back and forth and not have their edges catch on the ice.
If someone wants a different hollow, then all it takes to do that is re-dress ing the wheel at the correct hollow.
The standard hollow for hockey skates is 1/2"-5/8". some players prefer differently though.
If a store charges more for "never sharpened before" skates that is ridiculous. It takes the same amount of work as sharpening a regularly used pair of skates. If anything, it might require a light cross grind, and maybe a few extra passes on the sharpening wheel.
Goalie hollows are at 1" because they dont want sharp blades. They want to be able to shuffle cleanly and be able to slide back and forth and not have their edges catch on the ice.
If someone wants a different hollow, then all it takes to do that is re-dress ing the wheel at the correct hollow.
Have sharpened my own skates for years, though never done it professionally. Adding to the comments on uneven edges: that comment about being set for figure skates makes no sense. It is just as described above.
Also, I've found that I can have just noticeably (to the eye) uneven edges, but not notice any difference when I skate on it. Of course, I try to sharpen so the edges are pretty even. And I've definitely seen edges that are WAY uneven and this will make a difference when you skate. But minor unevenness has never bothered me.
Also I would not be skeptical of a place that did not have a crossgrinder. It is apparently helpful when blades are brand new or have worn so dull they need more than just a simple sharpening. It sounds like a crossgrinder can make it right without grinding down as much metal as if you just use a regular sharpener and go at it for a while. This is significant, but barely significant, I would guess, if this only happens once in the life of the blades.
Also, I've found that I can have just noticeably (to the eye) uneven edges, but not notice any difference when I skate on it. Of course, I try to sharpen so the edges are pretty even. And I've definitely seen edges that are WAY uneven and this will make a difference when you skate. But minor unevenness has never bothered me.
Also I would not be skeptical of a place that did not have a crossgrinder. It is apparently helpful when blades are brand new or have worn so dull they need more than just a simple sharpening. It sounds like a crossgrinder can make it right without grinding down as much metal as if you just use a regular sharpener and go at it for a while. This is significant, but barely significant, I would guess, if this only happens once in the life of the blades.
Anyone else want to take a crack at 6, 7 and x8? (8 has been answered)
That tool leveling tool/balance?
a. What's it called? Answered 2.29.08 It's a Quicksquare or Skate Gauge. And this gadget: http://www.pro-filer.com/html/hdi.htm
b. Wouldn't that detect uneven edges or is it's purpose something different? I assumed it'd dbl ck the sharpeners completed work.
c. If they didn't use this basic tool wouldn't it be a red flag?
One sharpener told me he laughs when parents look at the edges with the naked eye as I was understanding this tool/level/balance was "the only way" to really see?
In a nutshell, after a new sharpening at IGH my daughter didn't have an edge - you could see her flying uncharacteristically all over the place. I confirmed this by setting the skate on our kitchen counter upright alongside the other good skate. The one could almost sit balance on the flat counter upright on it's edges. The newly sharpened troublesome skate tilted sideways.
Posted 2.29.08
It's called a QuickSquare or Skate Gauge. The correct terminology appears to be "out of square". Some posters mentioned using a dime where I used a level surface such as a counter top.
There's also this gadget: http://www.pro-filer.com/html/hdi.htm
That tool leveling tool/balance?
a. What's it called? Answered 2.29.08 It's a Quicksquare or Skate Gauge. And this gadget: http://www.pro-filer.com/html/hdi.htm
b. Wouldn't that detect uneven edges or is it's purpose something different? I assumed it'd dbl ck the sharpeners completed work.
c. If they didn't use this basic tool wouldn't it be a red flag?
One sharpener told me he laughs when parents look at the edges with the naked eye as I was understanding this tool/level/balance was "the only way" to really see?
In a nutshell, after a new sharpening at IGH my daughter didn't have an edge - you could see her flying uncharacteristically all over the place. I confirmed this by setting the skate on our kitchen counter upright alongside the other good skate. The one could almost sit balance on the flat counter upright on it's edges. The newly sharpened troublesome skate tilted sideways.
Posted 2.29.08
It's called a QuickSquare or Skate Gauge. The correct terminology appears to be "out of square". Some posters mentioned using a dime where I used a level surface such as a counter top.
There's also this gadget: http://www.pro-filer.com/html/hdi.htm
Last edited by mnhcp on Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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the one to love
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:12 am
That happened because the skate holder was either too high, or too low depending on which edge was lower.mnhcp wrote: In a nutshell, after a new sharpening at IGH my daughter didn't have an edge - you could see her flying uncharacteristically all over the place. I confirmed this by setting the skate on our kitchen counter upright alongside the other good skate. The one could almost sit balance on the flat counter upright on it's edges. The newly sharpened troublesome skate tilted sideways.
That leveling tool you are referring to is the hand held device? Or are you just referring to the skate holder itself. I ask this, because there are levers on the side of the holder that let you adjust the skates height, thus allowing the even pass of the wheel from the front of the skate all the way to the back. If one is higher or lower than the middle, then it should be adjusted accordingly to allow the wheel to pass in the middle of the blade.
However, there are actual devices (don't remember what they are called though) that allow one to check if it is indeed an even sharpening.
The real simple method is to just place a dime on the top of the blade while the skate is upside down. Then you can visibly see if the dime (penny, etc) is tilted towards one side or the other.
*in addition*
When you see someone scraping their finger nail with the edge, it literally means nothing, other than they will have some of their finger nail scraped off, lol. Almost every time a skate is sharpened, of course its going to be able to scrape the finger nail....beacuse it was JUST sharpened! What they should really be looking for is any burs that were not removed with the stone, and/ or the evenness of the edges.
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2 for cheating
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#7
These guys invented the "Quick Square".
http://www.maximumedge.ca/
Check their products list, I believe they have a new version that costs a little less.
There are a few shops that do a good job, most have some kid that doesn't have a clue what he/she is doing.
The average parent with a couple youngsters could buck up and buy a sharpener and be way ahead of the game by the time they graduate.
I would take an EZ-Sharp or a Blademaster anyday of the week over that Wissota machine...
http://www.maximumedge.ca/
Check their products list, I believe they have a new version that costs a little less.
There are a few shops that do a good job, most have some kid that doesn't have a clue what he/she is doing.
The average parent with a couple youngsters could buck up and buy a sharpener and be way ahead of the game by the time they graduate.
I would take an EZ-Sharp or a Blademaster anyday of the week over that Wissota machine...
I won't comment about what professional quality ought to be. I mostly just sharpen my own skates (have done so for years, as mentioned previously). As my own "consumer" I am perfectly satisfied with my "product" which includes a naked eye check to see how even the edges are. If you're paying for it, I guess you might as well have someone put a dime (or something else with a hard flat surface) on the edges to see if it sits perfectly level and make adjustments as necessary. But this does not mean it is worthless to inspect it with the naked eye.mnhcp wrote:Anyone else want to take a crack at 6, 7 and 8?
That tool leveling tool/balance?
a. What's it called
b. Wouldn't that detect uneven edges or is it's purpose something different? I assumed it'd dbl ck the sharpeners completed work.
c. If they didn't use this basic tool wouldn't it be a red flag?
One sharpener told me he laughs when parents look at the edges with the naked eye as I was understanding this tool/level/balance was "the only way" to really see?
In a nutshell, after a new sharpening at IGH my daughter didn't have an edge - you could see her flying uncharacteristically all over the place. I confirmed this by setting the skate on our kitchen counter upright alongside the other good skate. The one could almost sit balance on the flat counter upright on it's edges. The newly sharpened troublesome skate tilted sideways.
I am quite particular about certain aspects of the sharpening, believe me. At least for my personal preference, however, the evenness of the edges simply needs to "look pretty even" to my naked eye, held up against the light, and I then I am satisfied. Conversely, haven't we all, at least once, seen edges that even to the naked eye were obviously very uneven? Hey, might as well just give it a look.
About the fingernail thing -- it's true that if you see them do it it doesn't prove anything. But here again, when I sharpen my own skates, I find this a useful check. Sometimes, a portion of one of the edges may have been dulled down more than the rest of the blade and maybe I didn't notice it at first. Occasionally, most of the edge will be sharp after maybe a half-dozen passes along the wheel, but that one trouble spot needs a little more grinding. By doing the finger nail thing at several spots along the edge, I sometimes find those trouble spots that I otherwise might have missed.
I'm an amateur and maybe a pro would think some of my comments a bit strange. I have no idea. But they're nothing more or less than my opinions and observations after many years of sharpening my own skates.
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TPSKohoHockey29
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:57 pm
the greatest goalie cut skate, is a 1"shallow at the center of the blade, moving to a 2" deeper cut on the heel and the toe of the skate. it works out perfect, and the shuffles are incredible.
The only thing that makes a goalie skate any better, is if you get an ODB (overdrive blade)
those things are sooo nicee! perfect slides and grip in a wide stance every time.
The only thing that makes a goalie skate any better, is if you get an ODB (overdrive blade)
those things are sooo nicee! perfect slides and grip in a wide stance every time.