Girls Playing on Boys Teams : Looking for Concrete Rule

[mnhcp]

I wish to not engage in a debate on girls playing on boys teams.

I'm simply looking for the rule someplace. I've heard it exists but I can't find anything.

I've been told by our association that "girls can't jump over to the boys unless they started with the boys". "If you've started with the girls you can't jump over to the boys".

I've looked at USA Hockey, Minnesota Hockey along with some google searches.

Not looking to debate pros and cons. Just the facts. Can anyone offer anything concrete?

[philip18]

As far as I understand there is no such things as "boys" hockey. There is youth and girls. Girls can play in either youth or girls. Boys can only play in youth.

[regdunlop77]

I wish to not engage in a debate on girls playing on boys teams.

I'm simply looking for the rule someplace. I've heard it exists but I can't find anything.

I've been told by our association that "girls can't jump over to the boys unless they started with the boys". "If you've started with the girls you can't jump over to the boys".

I've looked at USA Hockey, Minnesota Hockey along with some google searches.

Not looking to debate pros and cons. Just the facts. Can anyone offer anything concrete?

(b) When an educational institution or a public service provides athletic teams for children
11 years old or younger or in the 6th grade or below, those teams shall be operated without
restrictions on the basis of sex, except that when overall athletic opportunities for one sex have
previously been limited and there is a demonstrated interest by members of that sex to participate
on a team restricted to members of that sex, the educational institution or public service may
provide a team restricted to members of that sex.

http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... ht=#289633

[mnhcp]

Thank you both "youth hockey guy" and "lawyer guy"!!!

[mnhcp]

Would either of you or anyone know the answer to the following?

What if my daughter wanted to play on a YOUTH TEAM and instead of making the YOUTH A or B team was relegated to the YOUTH C team (of course it'd be a conspiracy).

Could she change her mind and go back to the Girls U10A Team?

I'll take it a step further:

How could I prevent her from ending up on a U10B Team?

In reality she's a clear Squirt B player (maybe A) and a solid U10A player.

I'd just hate to see her penalized or is that a risk.

I'm not looking for speculation. I've done all that already.

Thank you

[greybeard58]

From the Mn Hockey handbook page 19:
C. Female players may participate on either Girl’s/Women’s teams or Youth/Adult teams.
D. No player shall be registered with two or more MH or USA Hockey teams at the same time regardless of league division or classification.
Exceptions to this By-Law may be made for City
League teams and women hockey players only. (Refer to Youth Rules and Regulations and to Women’s Operating Rules)

[Cowboy]

I would think it would depend on the rules in your association. I think in most associations if you don't take part in tryouts without a medical or other approved excuse, you are placed on the bottom team.

So if a girl try's out only as a squirt and isn't happy with the team she is placed on, her only other option would be the bottom 10U team since she missed 10U tryouts.

Maybe she can tryout at as both a 10U and a squirt?

In my opinion, your daughter needs to make a decision on where she will play at registration and stick to it. It is very frustrating for youth boards that usually are dealing with less than ideal numbers in the girls program to have to wait until the last minute to find out where some girls are playing.

[inthestands]

"How could I prevent her from ending up on a U10B Team? "
I'm not sure what you mean by this? What team would you want her on?

"In reality she's a clear Squirt B player (maybe A) and a solid U10A player. "
In who's opinion?

One question for you. When your daughter gets to high school age. What team does she want to play on?

[lxhockey]

According to MN Hockey Rules:
Youth Rules and Regulations
II Registration
B. No Player shall be registered with two or more MH/USA Hockey teams at the same time regardless of league division or classification, except:
1. That this provision shall not apply to players of a city house team who may play with both their team and a city traveling team.
2. That this provision shall not apply to female youth age players who may register on both a youth C or House team and also register with a girl's A or B team for the purpose of practice, exhibition games, league games and tournament competition including the USA Hockey National Women's Tournament. This exception should not be construed to dissuade an association from starting a girls program at any age level.

Summary of above:
Have her tryout for the Girls A team as she can always skate with the
youth C team at the same time.

My opinion:
If your association allows it (and I think they should) have her tryout for
both and make your decision based on the results.

[mnhcp]

I would think it would depend on the rules in your association. I think in most associations if you don't take part in tryouts without a medical or other approved excuse, you are placed on the bottom team.

So if a girl try's out only as a squirt and isn't happy with the team she is placed on, her only other option would be the bottom 10U team since she missed 10U tryouts.

Maybe she can tryout at as both a 10U and a squirt?

In my opinion, your daughter needs to make a decision on where she will play at registration and stick to it. It is very frustrating for youth boards that usually are dealing with less than ideal numbers in the girls program to have to wait until the last minute to find out where some girls are playing.

Thanks Cowboy: Yes, I'd have to make sure she'd be able to tryout for both in advance and not miss one tryout at the expense of the other.

I respect the opinion part: "This is what we're trying to do." To take it a step further though it's hard to committ to that decision or ask advice when we don't know what all the options are (yet). But we get ya' there.

It's not easy being on the Board. Numbers have been across the board, too many on 1 team, not enough on another, then 2 teams...who knows what next year will bring?

So until we know whether she can tryout for both & not miss one at expense of other tryout: I guess it's somewhat unfair to lay some of these questions out there now as there's still speculation.

[northwoods oldtimer]

It is a farce they let girls play in boys programs. The girls have their program and awesome it is that they do. But letting the girls play and develop with the boys is not a fair to the young men. I believe you can call it a DOUBLE STANDARD. Euphoria village idiot thinking in my opinion and pure hogwash. Debate is on........

[Cowboy]

I think most associations hold their elections in March and April. If their isn't any written policy within your association, I would wait until the new boards second meeting and ask them your options. Be prepared with a copy of the MN Hockey bylaws in case they try and tell you something you know is false. They may need to take a month before making a decision as their are a lot of thinks that must be looked at. Hopefully they will understand your situation and make a quick decision, otherwise just plan on trying out at both levels until you hear otherwise.

If you are allowed to tryout at both levels, let the board know ahead of time what your plans are in regards to the tryout results. What I mean is: tell them your daughter will play squirts if she places at an A or B level, or will only play 10UA otherwise she will play squirts for example. Otherwise waiting for someone to make up their mind can holdup posting of team rosters at the time when they are supposed to be posted.

In our association, there are parents who are unhappy about girls being able to try out at two different levels. For boys that fall within the window (players have the option of skating up a level with their classmates or stay back at their MN Hockey age group) in our association, they have to choose what level they are playing before tryouts. So keep in mind you may make a few people upset in the process.

Good luck!

[mnhcp]

http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... ht=#325965

[mnhcp]

It is a farce they let girls play in boys programs. The girls have their program and awesome it is that they do. But letting the girls play and develop with the boys is not a fair to the young men. I believe you can call it a DOUBLE STANDARD. Euphoria village idiot thinking in my opinion and pure hogwash. Debate is on........

Hey Northwoods Oldtimer,

We have something in common!

I agree with alot of what you say. However, it's the law. They should then change the law including moving the Girls back to Ridder!

In the meantime though while law is what it is, I'd like to take advantage of it as others are.

By the way, throughout your life have all woman rejected your advances? Just trying to figure out where you're coming from?

Where I do disagree with you however, is you can't just make a blanket statement saying it's not fair to the boys! That's silly! You need to be more specific. I'm getting the impression you think a girl would bring down a boy. How about, a girl helping a boys team! Maybe that girl can make an A team and help that team. Maybe that girl will make the boys play better as they don't want a girl being better then them. If you're worried about the A boy not making the team and being demoted to the B ranks....he needs to be a better skater then. So far I see more benefits.

One Debate that once and for all needs to be put to rest is: Should girls play with the boys? That's easy "all girls are different so you can't give a blanket answer".

I prefaced this my initial question as to not getting into a debate on the subject just the legality and rules regarding it.

[sorno82]

Cowboy,

From what I understand, the social aspects in girls hockey has more significance than boys hockey. That is how most boys and girls are wired. We have a girl on our team who has played with the boys from the beginning, but plans to switch to girls U12 next year. She stayed with the boys since that was where her friends were, but now she is getting sick of their antics.

Let her play with her friends. It will be the best choice in the short and long run.

[mnhcp]

"How could I prevent her from ending up on a U10B Team? "
I'm not sure what you mean by this? What team would you want her on?

"In reality she's a clear Squirt B player (maybe A) and a solid U10A player. "
In who's opinion?

One question for you. When your daughter gets to high school age. What team does she want to play on?

1. I think I've since answered this myself but quickly: The best available Team w/ the best Available Coaching! An easier answer is not U10B or Youth C.

2. Whose opinion: Don't make me brag as I'm very modest. Trust me, I'm being objective. Have I said "she's an a" or a "AAA". I haven't. So I'm not sure if that was a loaded question or not?

3. H.S. She wants to play on the best team available which I'm sure will be some Prep School. We're presently scouting D1 schools right now and developing a game plan for the Olympics.

[inthestands]

"How could I prevent her from ending up on a U10B Team? "
I'm not sure what you mean by this? What team would you want her on?

"In reality she's a clear Squirt B player (maybe A) and a solid U10A player. "
In who's opinion?

One question for you. When your daughter gets to high school age. What team does she want to play on?

1. I think I've since answered this myself but quickly: The best available Team w/ the best Available Coaching! An easier answer is not U10B or Youth C.

2. Whose opinion: Don't make me brag as I'm very modest. Trust me, I'm being objective. Have I said "she's an a" or a "AAA". I haven't. So I'm not sure if that was a loaded question or not?

3. H.S. She wants to play on the best team available which I'm sure will be some Prep School. We're presently scouting D1 schools right now and developing a game plan for the Olympics.

1. Looking for the best coached team is a great idea.
2. Parents always see the best in their players. It's our job..
3. My question was more related to will she want to play on the girls HS team? If so, she may think about playing girls on the way up.

I have a daughter playing HS hockey. Our youth program doesn't have huge numbers. There have been a few girls playing with the boys on the way up. They were no better off because of it. "Personal opinion" HS programs can suffer from girls playing with boys. Youth girls teams at times struggle with numbers, and if some play with the boys it magnifies that.

"Most" girls have a more enjoyable time playing with girls teams for a variety of reasons. You can agree or disagree with that accessment, but I have a little experience with those situations.

Either way, as long as it's the players decision where to go and what direction that is the key. That is a difficult equation for the parents not to lean one way or the other.

[mnhcp]

Cowboy,

From what I understand, the social aspects in girls hockey has more significance than boys hockey. That is how most boys and girls are wired. We have a girl on our team who has played with the boys from the beginning, but plans to switch to girls U12 next year. She stayed with the boys since that was where her friends were, but now she is getting sick of their antics.

Let her play with her friends. It will be the best choice in the short and long run.

=======================================

Another blanket statement. Again, I agree "in general".

The social aspect is huge in girls. All girls are different though.

My daughter is tire of the girls lack of agressiveness. I'm wish the parents were more committed and involved. They all have a great time together, we all enjoy each others company yet we've had it up to our eyeballs in "at least they're having fun".

I can spend thousands of dollars a year on a fun vacation.

I don't want to spend thousands of dollars a year so my daughter can have fun in a locker room or at a tournament in a hotel room.

Too many variables again to say "let her play with her friends. it'll be the best in the short and long term".

I know that your replay is with good intentions. It's a valid point that's come up before.

She's got plenty of friends and no one can have too many.

There will come a time when she'll have to switch over to the girls and that'll be sooner then later (in all likelihood). But right now she wants to do it, I want her to and she can hold her own.

She has goals and I'd love to see her accomplish them. Right now, playing where she is playing fits no where on this roadmap!

I was really just looking for the legal aspect and even "I'm" enjoying the exchange I wasn't looking for!

[mnhcp]

"How could I prevent her from ending up on a U10B Team? "
I'm not sure what you mean by this? What team would you want her on?

"In reality she's a clear Squirt B player (maybe A) and a solid U10A player. "
In who's opinion?

One question for you. When your daughter gets to high school age. What team does she want to play on?

1. I think I've since answered this myself but quickly: The best available Team w/ the best Available Coaching! An easier answer is not U10B or Youth C.

2. Whose opinion: Don't make me brag as I'm very modest. Trust me, I'm being objective. Have I said "she's an a" or a "AAA". I haven't. So I'm not sure if that was a loaded question or not?

3. H.S. She wants to play on the best team available which I'm sure will be some Prep School. We're presently scouting D1 schools right now and developing a game plan for the Olympics.

1. Looking for the best coached team is a great idea.
2. Parents always see the best in their players. It's our job..
3. My question was more related to will she want to play on the girls HS team? If so, she may think about playing girls on the way up.

I have a daughter playing HS hockey. Our youth program doesn't have huge numbers. There have been a few girls playing with the boys on the way up. They were no better off because of it. "Personal opinion" HS programs can suffer from girls playing with boys. Youth girls teams at times struggle with numbers, and if some play with the boys it magnifies that.

"Most" girls have a more enjoyable time playing with girls teams for a variety of reasons. You can agree or disagree with that accessment, but I have a little experience with those situations.

Either way, as long as it's the players decision where to go and what direction that is the key. That is a difficult equation for the parents not to lean one way or the other.

Thank you for being a gentleman when I was being somewhat of a sarcastic ass. I apologize and sorry. I now sense they weren't loaded questions and I shouldn't have assumed!

I was kidding about the D1 and Olympics but sure that'd be great. Yes I see her playing on the H.S. Girls Varsity Team "IF" she continues to love the game like she presently does.

All cards are on the table as to which HS she plays for. It really depends on who the coach is at the time and his goals, desires for our daughter and team. Loyalty isn't what it used to be so I'd like to be loyal to the club and the girls she's growing up with but they'll come and go over the next few years. Why some HS coaches choose not to be involved in the development of the youth program amazes me? In addition to helping there teams rise through the ranks it also promotes some loyalty but of course doesn't insure it. Though he's been asked our girls HS coach chooses not to be involved in the youth program. He doesn't have to of course but this could influence our decision down the road? Maybe, maybe not?

Your "Personal Opinion" on the girls HS team suffers because of it? No question a departure of a girl from her team to a youth boys team will cause the youth girls team to suffer. But how that translates I can only speculate. This is where you start gettting into the good of the "CLUB" vs the selfishness of good of the "PLAYER". So I guess it may hurt the team (girls and the development of the HS Prospects) but it'd help the player. Could it just be the other girls just aren't good enough? Could it be identical to our situation where some girls never touch a puck or stick during the summer? Could it be some kids are just there for the social aspect? Then, these kids just end up on the same high school team as the one who played with the boys. Whose to blame? Just throwing a possibility out there! You did say the player going through boys ranks isn't any better but could that just isolated as all kids thrive differently and these girls didn't? Just throwing another possibility out there?

I don't think I'd ever challenge the social or enjoyable part about the girl comraderie thing! There is just no question to that. Byt why are they there? Some kids are there for the friendships (when they have no business playing hockey) and others are there to hone/develop their skills. Some kids who shouldn't be continue to play and bring the team down because of these friendships. There not even there for the hockey because it's so much fun to say "i'm a hockey player" when they aren't.

This sorta leads back to low numbers at the girls pool. Girls often SUFFER big time because of the diverse talent on their teams! Often there's only one team at each level with A players and C- players on the same team. Some having never have skated before! How can this be a good thing.

It all comes back to these blanket statements that are so offbase can't be applied in all situations.

I'm not pointing those fingers at you but at everyone whose engaged in these conversations at the rink. The same old canned answers come up over and over. My point is all kids are different. I've now changed that to the correct broader answer "all situations are different as it depends on the variables involved".

The List (preliminary)
1. Each kid is different some thrive w/ a challenge some don't
2. Each team is different ie will team bring player down or bring player up
a) coaching b) diverse group ranging from A to C/House c) too large of team
3. What are the players goals? a. Fun b. H.S. Hockey c. college hockey d. elite athlete
4. Why? Is this at the expense of the club for the benefit of the player and is that okay? Is it obvious the club isn't providing what it should to the player?
5. It's the law if they want to!
6.

Some of these will be worked back into sub-categories

I hope I'm wrong on this but this is what I came up with awhile back:

If it's association hockey you should do what's best for the club! If the club isn't satisfying then play offseason hockey that does. If you get both, you're lucky!

The Law however isn't necessarily compatible with this!

[mnhcp]

According to MN Hockey Rules:
Youth Rules and Regulations
II Registration
B. No Player shall be registered with two or more MH/USA Hockey teams at the same time regardless of league division or classification, except:
1. That this provision shall not apply to players of a city house team who may play with both their team and a city traveling team.
2. That this provision shall not apply to female youth age players who may register on both a youth C or House team and also register with a girl's A or B team for the purpose of practice, exhibition games, league games and tournament competition including the USA Hockey National Women's Tournament. This exception should not be construed to dissuade an association from starting a girls program at any age level.

Summary of above:
Have her tryout for the Girls A team as she can always skate with the
youth C team at the same time.

My opinion:
If your association allows it (and I think they should) have her tryout for
both and make your decision based on the results.

Your Opinion is the One We Wish For!

[WhatIsIcing?]

I have to, respectfully, disagree with you, lxhockey and mnhcp. If a girl is believed to be good enough to play on a youth team, then she and her family should make that commitment and see it through, regardless of the team she ends up on.

For those associations that have established girls programs, I don't believe girls should have the opportunity to try out for multiple teams, unless all players are afforded that opportunity. If my son doesn't make the team he or I feel he should be on, I can't simply have him try out for another team, in the hopes he'll end up in a better position.

And keep in mind, for every girl that plays on a youth team, a boy is being displaced and sent to a lesser team than he might otherwise be on. And, again, he doesn't have the opportunity to try out for the girls' team to better his position.

[mnhcp]

I have to, respectfully, disagree with you, lxhockey and mnhcp. If a girl is believed to be good enough to play on a youth team, then she and her family should make that commitment and see it through, regardless of the team she ends up on.

For those associations that have established girls programs, I don't believe girls should have the opportunity to try out for multiple teams, unless all players are afforded that opportunity. If my son doesn't make the team he or I feel he should be on, I can't simply have him try out for another team, in the hopes he'll end up in a better position.

And keep in mind, for every girl that plays on a youth team, a boy is being displaced and sent to a lesser team than he might otherwise be on. And, again, he doesn't have the opportunity to try out for the girls' team to better his position.

This is sad how it's turning into opinions. I guess I'm engaging so it's my fault. I really only wanted the legalitys.

However if we were lucky enough for it to be an option - I'd certainly like to take advantage of it?

One side of me agrees with not being able to try out for multiple opportunities in general. However, what makes the girls program different is you may have 1 10B Team (no A team). That team may have AAA players and brand new skaters. The broad range of talent penalizes the good and helps the bad. With the boys...there's an A team, 2-4 B Teams and a couple C Teams. After tryouts they're likely being placed with comparable skaters. This isn't the case with many girls programs.

It's also unfair there's only one crappy team for the girls in many cases!

About that displaced boy. He should have had a better tryout or worked harder in the summer! Think about the benefits too: That youth team the poor boy didn't make because he slacked all summer now has a better player on the team to contribute. And, now the boy has had a quick kick in his pants he'll either quit or work harder next time. He can now spend more time playing other sports he could be better at, study harder or maybe even an instrument. This just might have been the mixed blessing he was looking for. The family will also have saved thousands of dollars a year not playing hockey.

So far I see benefits all over the place.

[lxhockey]

I don't disagree with you whatisicing, but that is perfect world scenario.

It really is no different than Bantams trying out for HS a month after they are already on a youth team. Nothing prohibits that. Then to make it even worse, if a 9th grader goes to a HS that has grades 9-12, they could also conceivably ditch their Bantam team and play JG a month or two after they have already been playing games at the Bantam level.

Granted it is a nightmare for the association, but they can deal with it by putting 16 instead of 15 kids on the youth team roster if they know there is a good chance of someone dropping off the team.

I don't know of very many associations that have bylaws which would not allow this. I do know a few associations that have tryout fees associated with what team you are trying out for, in which case you would have to pay double the try out fees.

It really comes down to numbers of kids in programs. Sometimes the numbers work and sometimes they don't. Work with the association and I bet you find an easier path than playing the system and working against them. They will tell you how the numbers look at each level and if they can help you and your daughter develop where she fits the best.

If they don't want to help you, others have suggested that there are great off season opportunities and I would encourage you to have your program development coordinator help you find a good one.

[WhatIsIcing?]

About that displaced boy. He should have had a better tryout or worked harder in the summer! Think about the benefits too: That youth team the poor boy didn't make because he slacked all summer now has a better player on the team to contribute. And, now the boy has had a quick kick in his pants he'll either quit or work harder next time. He can now spend more time playing other sports he could be better at, study harder or maybe even an instrument. This just might have been the mixed blessing he was looking for. The family will also have saved thousands of dollars a year not playing hockey.

Just to be certain I understand...

Your daughter tries out for the U10A team and, much to your dismay, ends up making U10B. You give it a couple of days or a week and take her to the youth tryouts, because you're convinced she's better than U10B. She makes a Squirt team, displacing a boy to a lesser team, and "he should have had a better tryout or worked harder in the summer!" Could the same not be said for your daughter making U10B instead of U10A? That she should "quit or work harder next time?" Perhaps she could "spend more time playing other sports she could be better at, study harder or maybe even an instrument?"

Am I the only one who has a problem with that kind of hypocrisy?

[mnhcp]

About that displaced boy. He should have had a better tryout or worked harder in the summer! Think about the benefits too: That youth team the poor boy didn't make because he slacked all summer now has a better player on the team to contribute. And, now the boy has had a quick kick in his pants he'll either quit or work harder next time. He can now spend more time playing other sports he could be better at, study harder or maybe even an instrument. This just might have been the mixed blessing he was looking for. The family will also have saved thousands of dollars a year not playing hockey.

Just to be certain I understand...

Your daughter tries out for the U10A team and, much to your dismay, ends up making U10B. You give it a couple of days or a week and take her to the youth tryouts, because you're convinced she's better than U10B. She makes a Squirt team, displacing a boy to a lesser team, and "he should have had a better tryout or worked harder in the summer!" Could the same not be said for your daughter making U10B instead of U10A? That she should "quit or work harder next time?" Perhaps she could "spend more time playing other sports she could be better at, study harder or maybe even an instrument?"

Am I the only one who has a problem with that kind of hypocrisy?

You didn't read the thread!

No hypocrisy, you just misunderstood. If all this thread were read from start to finish it'd have been quite clear.

Nope, there is no concern whatsoever that she'd just make the U10B Team as she'd make the U10A (this is U10, not Squirts...not the same type of #'s). It just wouldn't be possible. She'd be ready and prepared no matter what!

The ONLY way this would be possible if the tryouts for Squirts and U10's were coincidentally at the same time then couldn't participate in both thus forcing a decision OR if they said no, choose Youth or Girls thus forcing a decision...then if we chose Youth and she didn't get placed where we'd like, then she'd be automatically relegated to U10B because we never were able to even tryout for U10A as we were to busy gambling for Squirts instead.

U10A isn't an issue: unless not able to tryout for one of the 2 reasons above.

Competing between the U10A and U10B is like night and day. It's so clear with the exception of a few and at this point that's not an issue at all.

Now, being tryouts will be held next fall I need to make sure my daughter is prepared and that would include the possibility of having the FLU on the day of tryouts. I'd also assume the possibility of a broken her wrist! This summer she needs to facter these possibilities into the fall equation. It could happen. If she didn't make the U10A team then I'd have to conclude that the kid who did make the team made some real impressive improvements over the summer. It'd be quite the feat. I wouldn't make excuses...she needs to be ready come hell or high water no excuses!

Now that this has come up, I'm going to place her in a sterile bubble for the 2-3 weeks leading up to tryouts to further insure she doesn't get sick. If we buy 2 we could probably get ourselves a deal? If you're in let me know as we don't need excuses.

No hypocrisy at all.