MN. players taking the leap; schools feeling trampled.

wbmd · Post by **wbmd** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:20 pm

This was in the Star Tribune.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/preps/15683952.html

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:49 pm

Good article. It presents a glimpse of what is going on and uses two specific examples. I think it adds to their coverage because it expands on a story earlier in the week.

Here is my question:

The number of players leaving home early has increased in recent years, and it is causing friction among those involved. It is even leaving some to question high school hockey's future as it pertains to the on-ice product.

Hasn't the number of players leaving home early actually reversed? It is less than it was recently.

Also, a question for anyone that wants to take it... What do you think is the 'standard' for how many Minnesota HS kids leave to play somewhere else? I know a kid from Duluth that played USHL in the 1980s and nobody statewide was too concerned about losing him back then. I don't think the number is zero, but maybe someone else does.

As long as the state is only losing 10-12 players I don't see a big problem. Losing 50 would reduce the quality of play. They're all underclassmen, but Ness, Budish, Mattson, and Walters are all playing Minnesota HS hockey. Some have stayed. (Yes, I know Ness is leaving.)

LZ94 · Post by **LZ94** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:11 pm

O-townClown wrote:(Yes, I know Ness is leaving.)

Good points, but I don't think you anyone can look at Ness as a negative since he is going straight to college, and he is of the age that would make him a senior usually.

I agree that 10-12 kids a year is fine, in fact if they go on to great things on the national scene with USA hockey, college, and pro levels then I think that only helps the entire Minnesota youth and high school hockey scene.

wbmd · Post by **wbmd** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:06 pm

The story mentioned that White Bear coach Tim Sager wouldn't allow Jake Hansen to skate with the team during Christmas vacation. In a way, I agree with Sager's reasoning. However, I also don't agree with him.

Personally, I think one reason Sager wanted Hansen (and Taylor Johnson) to stay for their senior season, is so Sager could take much of the credit for developing these players.

54fighting · Post by **54fighting** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:45 pm

Sagar is a moron. Support the kids weather their decisions help you or not. I think his reponse may show some insight into why the WBL program lost these players. If this kid is going to the Gophers next year than he probably made the right choice. Sagar was not going to prepare him for that jump. What a crybaby!

mulefarm · Post by **mulefarm** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:50 pm

Why should he let him skate? He left the program.

54fighting · Post by **54fighting** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:58 pm

If I had to guess, a certain coach from Wayzata told this young man that if he wanted to play his freshman year he would need to play a much tougher schedule. So he does this and now his petty HS coach says fine but you can"t ever skate here again. I wonder if he asked his players what they thought. Had the story said the players did not want him back then I would have more understanding.

mulefarm · Post by **mulefarm** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:06 pm

Since when should a coach have to ask his players about a decsion he makes? Input,yes. Decsions no.

ap4mvp · Post by **ap4mvp** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:25 pm

Great article

My hometown team lost one of the state's best players this past season to the USHL and it really hurt some in the community he left. And yet again in this up coming off-season another elite player from that community will be faced with the same tough decision. As fan of high school hockey I would like to see the USHL raise their age requirements, but I know that isn’t going to happen

gopherhockey1234 · Post by **gopherhockey1234** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:33 pm

This is why USA Hockey thinks that Minnesota coaches are selfish pigs. It was like pulling teeth to get Pitlick to play over in Slovakia 2 weeks ago. It's a joke that the Minnesota coaches have such a problem with gets moving on to the next level. If Tim Sager's kid got asked to go play for his country what would he say. It would of done Jake Hanson no good to stay and play a very soft 26 game schedule. He needs to learn how to compete every shift every night if he wants to play a the U next year.It's not the kids fault that Minnesota High School players play 26 games a year. Other than a couple of very top end players, it just is not going to happen. Tim Sager should open his arms up and say, this is what you need to play at the U next year, unfortunely he is a selfish pig just like most other Minnesota coaches. Should we hold back the kid that is great in math, or should we move him on to Algerbra 2. Fortunley for the Math student are Schools can move him on without leaving his Community. I would encourage kids to go after your dreams and do not look back at your High school hockey coach if he disagrees with you.

Jacketfan06 · Post by **Jacketfan06** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:35 pm

SiouxRecruit · Post by **SiouxRecruit** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:40 pm

ap4mvp wrote:Great article My hometown team lost one of the state's best players this past season to the USHL and it really hurt some in the community he left. And yet again in this up coming off-season another elite player from that community will be faced with the same tough decision. As fan of high school hockey I would like to see the USHL raise their age requirements, but I know that isn’t going to happen

Sounds like a personal problem....maybe a bit of counseling might help...

rbk101 · Post by **rbk101** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:34 pm

I was very sad to hear this about Sager. I was really hoping it was just a rumor when I first heard about it. Hansen has been at White Bear playing with these same kids for years...Why should he not be able to come back and skate with his friends for a couple of days? It is just so sad when a coach has to put himself before the kids. Grow up Sager!! you say "It is about developing the kids to be good people not just good hockey players". Practice what YOU preach!!!!

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:37 pm

If WBL had a kid leave for Hill-Murray should Sagar let that kid come skate too? Why should Hansen feel entitled to skate with a team he left? Can anyone in White Bear Lake just show up and skate with the high school team? Aren't there outdoor rinks in WBL for these kids to go and skate at if that's what they want? Can Hanson just show up and sit in on a Math class at WBL High? Just a hunch but if some kid who plays for WBL showed up at Jake Hanson's practice I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that he wouldn't be allowed to practice with them.

I think people are just making something out of nothing. Kids left, so what. Decisions are made and there are repercussions for them, welcome to the adult world Jake Hanson. Also what if Hanson got injured during his practice, it's not a USA Hockey practice, do you think WBL would really like a lawsuit? Because you know that's what would happen.

54fighting, this probably is the same hypocritical coach from Wayzata who cries when his kid headed for the Islanders. There are coaches in this state who think Lucia is part of the problem and laugh at his team of Prima Donna's in 9th place.

ap4mvp · Post by **ap4mvp** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:42 pm

SiouxRecruit wrote:
ap4mvp wrote:Great article My hometown team lost one of the state's best players this past season to the USHL and it really hurt some in the community he left. And yet again in this up coming off-season another elite player from that community will be faced with the same tough decision. As fan of high school hockey I would like to see the USHL raise their age requirements, but I know that isn’t going to happen
Sounds like a personal problem....maybe a bit of counseling might help...

Personal problem because I want to see my team win

gopherhockey1234 · Post by **gopherhockey1234** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:40 pm

Goldy I'm not talking about going to Hill. This kid has a dream of playing D1 hockey. He has made a choice to go get better. If you think that by playing a very soft 26 game schedule will get him to the U next year your nuts. It is so immature that he can't come back and skate it makes me sick. The scary thing is Sager might learn something from Jake. If some of these coaches could see past there noses, he would swat him in the ass and wish him the best of luck. There is more hockey than Minnesota high school hockey. You made a good decision Jake. I will say it again, if you have a dream don't let guys like Tim Sager hold you back.

Neutron 14 · Post by **Neutron 14** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:54 pm

I agree with Sager. Its his job to run a practice free of distractions, and Jake obviously would be one. Jake made the decision that was best for him and I'm sure 99% of the people wish him good luck. I'm certain Sager is in that group. Goldy is right, this is much ado about nothing.

guitarer1c · Post by **guitarer1c** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:58 pm

As someone from White Bear and a fan of the hockey team, I'm torn. On the one hand, 70 games in the USHL is much better for individual development than 30 games at the high school level. On the other, it really hurts to think about the team WBL would have had this year with both Hansen and Johnson on it.

At the end of the day, though, it's up to the individual players to decide what is going to best help them fulfill their goals in life. I don't think that Jake Hansen or Taylor Johnson owes anything to anyone else.

Gopher Blog · Post by **Gopher Blog** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:36 pm

goldy313 wrote:If WBL had a kid leave for Hill-Murray should Sagar let that kid come skate too? Why should Hansen feel entitled to skate with a team he left? Can anyone in White Bear Lake just show up and skate with the high school team? Aren't there outdoor rinks in WBL for these kids to go and skate at if that's what they want? Can Hanson just show up and sit in on a Math class at WBL High? Just a hunch but if some kid who plays for WBL showed up at Jake Hanson's practice I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that he wouldn't be allowed to practice with them.

I doubt Hansen felt "entitled" (as you put it). It certainly didn't seem like he felt that way based on the remarks in the article. Personally, I thought it sounded like sour grapes on Sagar's part. For instance, a lot of guys that have left college hockey early for the pros will come back to their college in subsequent years in the summer to work out (both dry land training and on the ice) with players of their former team and using the college's athletic facilities. I really don't see the harm in letting a HS kid come back and skate with his old team for a day or two.

Decisions are made and there are repercussions for them, welcome to the adult world Jake Hanson.

I guess you seem to be reading a bit too much into the article. Because I really don't see a lot of angst being expressed by Hansen over it. His dad voiced his thoughts on it but it didn't seem like Jake was horribly upset about it. Judging from his play this year and the development he has had, I doubt he regrets it.

54fighting, this probably is the same hypocritical coach from Wayzata who cries when his kid headed for the Islanders. There are coaches in this state who think Lucia is part of the problem and laugh at his team of Prima Donna's in 9th place.

Apples and oranges comparison when you bring up Okposo's situation. Jake Hansen didn't leave WBL in the middle of the HS season for the USHL. Bolting at mid-season is what people didn't like with Okposo. Everybody understands when you have a 1st round pick on your roster, he isn't going to stick around for 4 years. Lucia doesn't "cry" about it when his guys like Kessel and EJ make the NHL right away.

As for Lucia being part of the problem, he doesn't do anything any different from the coaches at UND, UW, and other major college programs. They all recruit prospects that leave HS hockey early for places like the NTDP and USHL. If you are going to blame one guy, you had better blame them all because they are all in the same boat when it comes to having some recruits that chose to leave HS hockey for juniors.

PuckRanger · Post by **PuckRanger** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:17 am

gopherhockey1234 wrote:This is why USA Hockey thinks that Minnesota coaches are selfish pigs. It was like pulling teeth to get Pitlick to play over in Slovakia 2 weeks ago. It's a joke that the Minnesota coaches have such a problem with gets moving on to the next level. If Tim Sager's kid got asked to go play for his country what would he say. It would of done Jake Hanson no good to stay and play a very soft 26 game schedule. He needs to learn how to compete every shift every night if he wants to play a the U next year.It's not the kids fault that Minnesota High School players play 26 games a year. Other than a couple of very top end players, it just is not going to happen. Tim Sager should open his arms up and say, this is what you need to play at the U next year, unfortunely he is a selfish pig just like most other Minnesota coaches. Should we hold back the kid that is great in math, or should we move him on to Algerbra 2. Fortunley for the Math student are Schools can move him on without leaving his Community. I would encourage kids to go after your dreams and do not look back at your High school hockey coach if he disagrees with you.

I disagree completely. What's the rush to get to the USHL anyway? Why not finish high school, THEN go to the USHL, THEN go to the Gophers? Any kid who thinks that leaving high school early is going to put him on the fast track to the NHL is sorely mistaken. If your doing it to get to the "U" or any other college, it will still happen if you wait a year. If you have the god-given talent to make it to the NHL, your going to get there whether or not you play your senior year at high school.

Somebody, PLEASE show me some kind of evidence as to how skipping your senior year to play in the USHL actually increases your chances at anything other than playing in college as a true freshman.

The math analogy is rediculous. You still have to go through algebra I to get to algebra II. You just don't skip your senior year of math to go off to NASA to prepare for science school, now do you?

lampthelight · Post by **lampthelight** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:10 am

gopherhockey1234 wrote:This is why USA Hockey thinks that Minnesota coaches are selfish pigs

Can I get some documentation from USA hockey showing this?

gopherhockey1234 wrote:It would of done Jake Hanson no good to stay and play a very soft 26 game schedule. He needs to learn how to compete every shift every night if he wants to play a the U next year.It's not the kids fault that Minnesota High School players play 26 games a year. Other than a couple of very top end players, it just is not going to happen

These high school kids that play a "very soft" 26 game schedule also play in summer leagues, elite leagues, and all kinds of other tournaments. They still end up with 40-50 games in a year. Thats more than enough to develop skills.

The USHL is killing HS, and College hockey. You have kids leaving HS early to go play, which hurts the talent in the state. Then on the flip side you have 24, or 25 year olds who are college seniors. Then people wonder why kids coming out of HS can't make the jump to the college game.

IMO, College Sports should have an age limit. 5 years from HS graduation should be long enough to still be playing College Sports. (Obviously with some exceptions) There is absolutely no need for a 25 year old guy to still be playing college hockey. NHL scouts will take a chance on a kid who's 19 and has potential over a guy who's 25 anyday. It's time to get a job if your 25 and still playing college hockey, your not going anywhere in hockey.

tourneytickssince59 · Post by **tourneytickssince59** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:22 am

Why not let the kids do what they feel is the best for them and their development and not hold it against them. They do not "owe" the school or "community" anything. Freedom of choice is just that. The freedom to chose what one considers best for themselves. Fortunately (or unfortunately according to some) there are more choices now than there were 20 years ago.

Mite-dad · Post by **Mite-dad** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:37 am

lampthelight wrote:IMO, College Sports should have an age limit. 5 years from HS graduation should be long enough to still be playing College Sports. (Obviously with some exceptions) There is absolutely no need for a 25 year old guy to still be playing college hockey. NHL scouts will take a chance on a kid who's 19 and has potential over a guy who's 25 anyday. It's time to get a job if your 25 and still playing college hockey, your not going anywhere in hockey.

I agree with this statement. Its a college problem. If colleges did the same thing with hockey as they do with other sports, this wouldn't be an issue. If the Canadians, Europeans, etc. can't adjust, tough crap for them.

Gopher Blog · Post by **Gopher Blog** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:44 am

Mite-dad wrote:I agree with this statement. Its a college problem. If colleges did the same thing with hockey as they do with other sports, this wouldn't be an issue. If the Canadians, Europeans, etc. can't adjust, tough crap for them.

Personally, I would like it this way as well. Unfortunately, schools like Denver and UND made a living off of recruiting older players for years and it seems to have made the practice of recruiting older players become ingrained in the college hockey landscape. Hell, older recruits are pretty much what cost Doug Woog his job 10 years ago as he was trying to stick with recruiting 18 year old HS kids while most schools were going with older juniors players.

mainefan · Post by **mainefan** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:49 am

We set these kids up to think that they are superstars the minute they put the skates on and get a little recognition for making some goals. Juniors lure these kids, most of them albeit better than an average high schooler, but no where near NHL ability to play so the kids with real potential have someone to play against while they develop.We keep lists of how many Minnesotans have gone on the pros but have we ever counted the numbers of kids who went through the USHL only to end up on a rink to nowhere. Kids should stay in high school play with their buddies and if they are good enough they will get to play in college and then maybe the pros. My opinion and I am sticking to it.

HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

MN. players taking the leap; schools feeling trampled.

MN. players taking the leap; schools feeling trampled.

good article

Re: good article

Sagar

Sager is a fool !!!!

Re: Sager is a fool !!!!

Re: Sager is a fool !!!!

Re: Sager is a fool !!!!

Re: Sager is a fool !!!!