Having fun, Player Development, or Stroking Egos

[sorno82]

Having fun, Player Development, or Stroking Egos through Team Domination

I am just absolutely amazed at how adults act these days when it comes to their kid’s involvement in youth sports. I am guilty of contributing to this since I read and post on these threads.

Why is it that Associations that have a depth of talent and huge numbers insist on one “A” team? Looking at Edina, their A team is dominant, along with all 6 B teams. My feelings are that it is suboptimal for the player’s development as both an athlete and a person to win all the time in a dominant fashion at such a young age. There is something to be said about having to go deep within yourself and to come from behind with the clock ticking. That is where lessons are learned that help the kids; they are not learned when everything is easy. Edina is not the only one in this boat as EP, Wayzata, WBL and others would dominate if given the opportunity. Conversely, why have an "A" team if the kids get dominated on a regular basis?

I think this level of domination works against them in the long run. That is why I think these large associations with high levels of talent should form their teams with a winning percentage of 60-70% in mind versus 90-100%. Edina could possibly field 2-4 A teams this year at the squirt level using this formula, Wayzata and EP probably 2. In fact, OMGHA has 2 A teams and adjust the B teams accordingly.

I do not buy the argument that player 1 would suffer if he is on a team with player 20-30 or 45. The fact is that there are not huge differences between 10 and 40 in these larger associations that dominate at both the A and B level. I think it would actually help these top players in the long run by trying to make the others better. In addition, how do the goalies face real game pressure when they are always up by 5+ goals?

The fact is that that many kids that show early promise usually mature early and have many more hours of practice than the other “average” kids (not always the case, but in general). Kids who dominate their peers at a young age often get frustrated and quit sports early when the others catch up, or even pass them by.

This is why associations should step in and do what is best for the kid in the long run. If you can support 2 or 3 “A” teams at a certain level, then do it. If you can’t support any, then don’t do it. Personally, I have played on a College National Championship team (different sport), and have been on teams that have lost more than they won. My experience is that you learn much more from dealing adversity than from winning all the time. Sadly, I think this is more about winning youth championships and stroking parent’s egos than about what is best for the kid in the long run.

[spin-o-rama]

I agree completely.

I like your goalie comment. Last week I was at Braemar and one of the squirt B teams was up 10-1 in the middle of the second period. Shots were 30-4. That can't be good for goalie development.

[watchdog]

what i cant figure out is if you make one A team to be the best so be it but why cant kid 15-30 play A hockey as well? thats the big question. out of 180 to 200 squirts you dont have atleast 30 A level players? i suppose than you would have well you beat that edina team but you havent played the "real" team yet. ect ect ect....

[O-townClown]

Sorn, good post. Aren't there some constraints? Can each association tell the district a different number of A teams each year? (Maybe they can.)

By what date does an association have to decide this internally?

Would it be healthy for an association to be this fluid? Imagine they have two A teams this year and one next year. (Wouldn't have to be Edina.) Some kids that thought they would be A players would get aced out. While the kids might not make too much noise, some parents would.

For all the comments about how strong a program should be if they have 200 kids to choose from, don't some other issues arise? Granted, these are "high class" problems that come with having success but they are problems nonetheless.

I played hockey last night with a Minneapolis player that reached the state tournament in the 70s. At one point there were very strong programs in South Minneapolis. Today there aren't. In both cases I'm certain decisions are made for the group that some people don't like so I don't see how that problem ever goes away.

But I do agree with your sentiment that perfect records aren't optimal. Look at Shattuck. They field several teams and make sure they all lose plenty. This ensures close games.

[O-townClown]

what i cant figure out is if you make one A team to be the best so be it but why cant kid 15-30 play A hockey as well?

This has been discussed on here already. If I have it correct, District 6 was okay with a "Green" and "White" A team but not an A and A2. Faced with that choice Edina chose to go with one. I think they wanted what you described.

Hopefully someone can correct me if wrong.

I think the part that makes sense is Edina taking its B hockey in house. May not be easy to do, but having six teams that don't face each other much doesn't seem right.

[flatontheice]

what i cant figure out is if you make one A team to be the best so be it but why cant kid 15-30 play A hockey as well? thats the big question. out of 180 to 200 squirts you dont have atleast 30 A level players? i suppose than you would have well you beat that edina team but you havent played the "real" team yet. ect ect ect....

Becuase then it would be B level hockey

[tomASS]

promotion and relegation of teams - teams that deserve to go up do so through earning it. Teams that should not be at a certain level get demoted.

[watchdog]

well if 15-30 is b level hockey than what is the point everyone is playing were they should be.

[egf hockey1]

The point is that this system works within the cities. It just makes it so that nobody else can compete. Watchdog don't worry! The big cities may beat Roseau in PeeWees but as they concentrate on those 15 kids and leave the rest in the dust the little towns catch them and win state high school titles, where it counts. Nobody remembers who the 1991 State PeeWee A champion was (except the players on that team) I am willing to bet alot more people know who the High school state champion was that year though.

[sorno82]

I do not want turn this into a discussion on what is A or B hockey. I just find it ironic that associations and parents would much rather create "super teams" and dominate at a such a young age when their kids would be better served with having more meaningful and competittive games (my opinion of course). They sometimes hide behind the term "player development" when it is really about ego gratification. I know at the B level, kids seem more excited about playing competitve games against the other association teams than beating teams by 8 goals. Edina Green v. White or EP Black v. Red would be a blast at the A level (Just my opinion). SO what if you are 30-5 vs 35-0.

[egf hockey1]

Grand Forks does this and the Wheatkings vs Sugarkings games are a blast. GF splits up their talent and compete just fine with the other A teams that they play. They are able to let 30 players play at a high level of competition instead of 15, which helps out their program in the long run.

[watchdog]

egf- you are 100% right on the money.

[nahc]

Latest LPH rankings (which are up for debate weekly)

HS Boys AA Edina #2

Edin Prarie #7

Jr. Gold A Edina #1

Edin Prarie #7

Wayazata #8

Jr Gold B Edina #3

Wayazata #8

Bantam A Edin Prarie #1

Wayazata #2

Edina #5

Bantam B Wyazata #1

Edin Prarie #5

Pee Wee A Wyazata #1

Edina #2

Edin Prarie #7

Pee Wee B Edina #1

Edina #2

Wayazata #2

I couldn't see any other consistant teams represented from high school down to Pee Wee B's. Wayazata, Edina and Edin Prarie seem to be doing something right......and certainly not suggesting that other associations aren't doing things the correct way for their specific kids. The rankings kind of jump out at you.........

[punchinbag]

I agree that these associations are doing it right but they also have incredible numbers to choose from. I also would guess that they buy the most subscriptions to LPH.

[egf hockey1]

The LPH rankings must be done in Eden Prairie, Edina or Wayzata. That is the only possible way that Roseau isn't ranked #1 in HS hockey, like they are in every other poll.

Pretty tough to rank: take the 3 biggest associations and put them in the top 3. Edina has 200 kids to chose from, they should be #1. 200 kids in one tryout would be the equivlent of all of District 16 coming together to make one A team.

[egf hockey1]

Sorry, I read it wrong. I see Roseau is #1 in HS hockey in the latest LPH. It was on this website that they aren't.

[O-townClown]

The LPH rankings must be done in Eden Prairie, Edina or Wayzata. That is the only possible way that Roseau isn't ranked #1 in HS hockey, like they are in every other poll.

Roseau is #1 in any ranking I've seen where there is a 'human element'. When you take computer rankings, where there was a predetermined list of criteria and weights assigned to each you see them more like #5 due to SOS.

Either Roseau wins state and justifies #1 or they don't and it lends credence to the unbiased rankings that have them lower. It isn't a big deal. I don't think you can find anyone that doesn't think Roseau is a good team.

From Eden Prairie or anywhere.

[Reggie]

The point is that this system works within the cities. It just makes it so that nobody else can compete. Watchdog don't worry! The big cities may beat Roseau in PeeWees but as they concentrate on those 15 kids and leave the rest in the dust the little towns catch them and win state high school titles, where it counts. Nobody remembers who the 1991 State PeeWee A champion was (except the players on that team) I am willing to bet alot more people know who the High school state champion was that year though.

That sounds about right, Roseau is a prime example.

[watchdog]

Sorry, I read it wrong. I see Roseau is #1 in HS hockey in the latest LPH. It was on this website that they aren't.

just seeing if i can work this