Private School Trash talk thread

[HShockeywatcher]

BTW, nice to actually discuss this stuff!

I'd agree that the public schools would do well to study how and what private schools do to stay relevant and apply as much as possible. But the reality for most public schools is that you have to get buy in from a large diverse population (Hermantown excepted apparently!) - some who don't have kids, some who don't care about hockey, some who just plain don't want to pay more property taxes. Never gonna work.

It's economics and demographics.

Every school outside the metro area would LOVE to take what STA did with hockey but come on... "Yes Mr. Novak, Hibbing. It's really a very nice place."

And yes, alumni do help at the public level (Engelstad arena!) but again the numbers don't work. Not enough grist for the mill.

SIDEBAR: I personally think that private schools are starting to compete with each other for resources. Maybe things will cycle but I doubt it.

One personal beef. I hate that Duluth East, Edina, Hill Murray, etc. walk into Sections with a high seed and if they get upset they say "See, the system's working just fine." Well yeah, for you it is.

I agree, the discussion is what needs to be happening more.

Sure, those people may not care about hockey specifically (and I'm not saying hockey's the answer everywhere, maybe some places it's football or baseball and other's it's debate or theater) but most would care about what is best for their community as a whole.
What is frustrating is that all monies are divided; in reality there is a strong relationship between education, police force, social work, jails, etc.
Say you ramp up the work out facilities, the football field, the hockey rink, and the baseball field, along with starting to provide free (or low cost) equipment to the youth in areas, along with jobs/volunteer opportunities, etc for parents, etc in the community. Okay, so attendance in schools, grades, all that goes up, less is spent on the other things, less kids are in jail, etc. But all the community sees now is "increase in education spending."

If a community is trying to attract people there because of a hockey rink, they are doing it wrong. That's what a school has to offer, but not a community. Why do people move across the state to start their family? It's about all of what the community has to offer. The school plays a large part but isn't everything.
I'm a big fan of a school/community interaction, but there seems to be friction there in today's society, like school happens inside the walls of the building.

I'm not buying for a second that there aren't alumni who'd provide for their school were there an outlet to do so if they knew where the money was going specifically.
There are plenty of working class people who would give what they can to their alma mater if they knew where it was going. I know of Minneapolis because it's where I grew up; there's no way people on the whole wouldn't give enough money back to their respective schools to help provide meaningful programs to help students and the community out.

So, to you, what is the system supposed to do? Is it supposed to hold the top guy's down? Or provide opportunity?
The Twins can never beat the Yankees in the postseason; should we try to create some rule so we can bypass them or should we work within our organization to make ourselves better than them?
Maybe an extreme example, but it's what I'm seeing.

Just some thoughts from a private school guy who knows nothing.
It's about doing what's best for your community.

[northwoods oldtimer]

Hey Vanelli! "There are some smaller private schools that’ll say, “We’re only have 300 kids, versus the thousands in those big schools. That’s not fair!” Nor is it fair to destroy Minnesota rural farm schools 12-1 with an All-Star team. If 30 of your 300 kids are under scholarship, and they all happen to be playing hockey, then they need to play with the big boys."

[Mite-dad]

If you took a giant earth mover and scooped up STA and all its facilities, coaches, etc., and plopped them down here in Little Falls, it might help our team a little. Five titles? No way.

Hermantown's advantage is that they are right next to Duluth. Face it, if a kid wants to play there, his Duluth working parents can move there and commute to work. If they were 30 miles outside of Duluth, they'd be no better than Hibbing or Virginia in all likelihood. Outstate schools will never match the resources available to metro areas. I've got to travel 30 miles to St. Cloud to find ice in the off-season. I don't have Bjugstad, Mn Made, or any other premier program at my fingertips, nor do I have the cash to make it happen. Nor do most of the parents of the kids on our teams.

Teams close to metro areas will always have an advantage. Especially privates over publics. Just watch, the move of Cathedral to 6A will kill most chances of a public coming out of that section. Yeah, it'll make for better hockey down at the X in March, but it will kill the public schools chances of making it out of 6A in most years.

Sports in small schools like Little Falls compete for athletes. A lot of the better athletes play basketball or wrestle. Why? Because of tradition and because they are cheap. We have cheap hockey by comparison to other associations around the state and we still have trouble with numbers. We live in a depressed economic environment here. Also, we just came off of an incredible run of hockey with the Hanowskis and Festlers and this latest group of Seniors that just finished and we still don't see an increase in talent or numbers coming in. We'll have an occasional good group come through, but no all-stars to choose from in the surrounding area like a team in any metro area. We just don't have the population for it here.

[Mailman]

If you took a giant earth mover and scooped up STA and all its facilities, coaches, etc., and plopped them down here in Little Falls, it might help our team a little. Five titles? No way.

Hermantown's advantage is that they are right next to Duluth. Face it, if a kid wants to play there, his Duluth working parents can move there and commute to work. If they were 30 miles outside of Duluth, they'd be no better than Hibbing or Virginia in all likelihood. Outstate schools will never match the resources available to metro areas. I've got to travel 30 miles to St. Cloud to find ice in the off-season. I don't have Bjugstad, Mn Made, or any other premier program at my fingertips, nor do I have the cash to make it happen. Nor do most of the parents of the kids on our teams.

Teams close to metro areas will always have an advantage. Especially privates over publics. Just watch, the move of Cathedral to 6A will kill most chances of a public coming out of that section. Yeah, it'll make for better hockey down at the X in March, but it will kill the public schools chances of making it out of 6A in most years.

Sports in small schools like Little Falls compete for athletes. A lot of the better athletes play basketball or wrestle. Why? Because of tradition and because they are cheap. We have cheap hockey by comparison to other associations around the state and we still have trouble with numbers. We live in a depressed economic environment here. Also, we just came off of an incredible run of hockey with the Hanowskis and Festlers and this latest group of Seniors that just finished and we still don't see an increase in talent or numbers coming in. We'll have an occasional good group come through, but no all-stars to choose from in the surrounding area like a team in any metro area. We just don't have the population for it here.

This is another very important fact.

In many cases, a small public school district/AD won't even allow one sport to be "dominant", even if sport x's director wants it to be.

[HShockeywatcher]

If you took a giant earth mover and scooped up STA and all its facilities, coaches, etc., and plopped them down here in Little Falls, it might help our team a little. Five titles? No way.

Hermantown's advantage is that they are right next to Duluth. Face it, if a kid wants to play there, his Duluth working parents can move there and commute to work. If they were 30 miles outside of Duluth, they'd be no better than Hibbing or Virginia in all likelihood. Outstate schools will never match the resources available to metro areas. I've got to travel 30 miles to St. Cloud to find ice in the off-season. I don't have Bjugstad, Mn Made, or any other premier program at my fingertips, nor do I have the cash to make it happen. Nor do most of the parents of the kids on our teams.

Teams close to metro areas will always have an advantage. Especially privates over publics. Just watch, the move of Cathedral to 6A will kill most chances of a public coming out of that section. Yeah, it'll make for better hockey down at the X in March, but it will kill the public schools chances of making it out of 6A in most years.

Sports in small schools like Little Falls compete for athletes. A lot of the better athletes play basketball or wrestle. Why? Because of tradition and because they are cheap. We have cheap hockey by comparison to other associations around the state and we still have trouble with numbers. We live in a depressed economic environment here. Also, we just came off of an incredible run of hockey with the Hanowskis and Festlers and this latest group of Seniors that just finished and we still don't see an increase in talent or numbers coming in. We'll have an occasional good group come through, but no all-stars to choose from in the surrounding area like a team in any metro area. We just don't have the population for it here.

This is another very important fact.

In many cases, a small public school district/AD won't even allow one sport to be "dominant", even if sport x's director wants it to be.

It's also important to note the difference in athletic/extracurricular offerings at different schools public and private.

Some schools have 6 sports offered in the winter, for example, while other have only 2. Same goes for extracurriculars.

Mite-dad, I think you give too little credit to facilities.
Is it the same in the metro vs outstate? No, but that doesn't mean either is better.

[Mite-dad]

HSHW, maybe facilities would make somewhat of a difference. LFYH Board has been trying to get a second sheet of ice for years. It would be great to have, but then you have to pay for it. We lose potential hockey players now even when ice and the participation cost is cheap. If we add more facilities, the cost to play goes up, and participation could possibly drop making things worse.

What the hockey public needs to decide is, do you want the very best hockey showcased at the state tournament? If so, then leave it like it is and we'll probably have a private state A champ from a metro area most years with a very occasional public school winning it. If you want a level playing field for small outstate schools, then you need to either add another class, which no one seems to want, or somehow make metro private schools go up a class. And I don't just mean the Twin Cities private schools. Maybe its as simple as requiring the A champ to move up for a couple years. I don't know. Just some thoughts.

[Bonehead]

HSHW is a silver tongued devil!

For outstate programs loyalty to community is pretty much all you've got.

To compete with the metro areas I think a couple of MSHSL changes might help:

1) Make the transfer rule 1 year varsity ineligibility for ALL transfers. No residence change exceptions, public or private.

2) Any financial assistance, scholarships of any kind, books - anything - makes you ineligible for the year you receive it.

3) Student enrollment size is determined by the total of the home public school district of each player on the team (wow, STA just got a lot bigger).

[Mailman]

HSHW, maybe facilities would make somewhat of a difference. LFYH Board has been trying to get a second sheet of ice for years. It would be great to have, but then you have to pay for it. We lose potential hockey players now even when ice and the participation cost is cheap. If we add more facilities, the cost to play goes up, and participation could possibly drop making things worse.

What the hockey public needs to decide is, do you want the very best hockey showcased at the state tournament? If so, then leave it like it is and we'll probably have a private state A champ from a metro area most years with a very occasional public school winning it. If you want a level playing field for small outstate schools, then you need to either add another class, which no one seems to want, or somehow make metro private schools go up a class. And I don't just mean the Twin Cities private schools. Maybe its as simple as requiring the A champ to move up for a couple years. I don't know. Just some thoughts.

Of course, with the inclusion of out of state kids, etc., the tourney needs a name change to "Upper Midwest/Canadian States Hockey Tournament" anyway.

Unbelievable.

[pekyman]

HSHW, arguing that a private school is on the same level playing field as a Class A public school is beyond comprehension.
You would have a better shot at trying to convince people that the sky is not blue.
I know you need to do it so that you can feel proud of what your team has accomplished.
Go ahead and keep fooling yourself, nobody it is buying it.
I heard that the kid who scored the GWG came from WISCONSIN. Is that actually true?
Hats off to the boys of Hermantown; they accomplished 1,000 times more in their loss than STA did in their victory.

[Mailman]

HSHW, arguing that a private school is on the same level playing field as a Class A public school is beyond comprehension.
You would have a better shot at trying to convince people that the sky is not blue.
I know you need to do it so that you can feel proud of what your team has accomplished.
Go ahead and keep fooling yourself, nobody it is buying it.
I heard that the kid who scored the GWG came from WISCONSIN. Is that actually true?
Hats off to the boys of Hermantown; they accomplished 1,000 times more in their loss than STA did in their victory.

Yes.

[thestickler07]

To be fair Novak was born in St. Paul and his family moved to Wisconsin later in his life. So he is a MN native.

[Lazy Scout]

HSHW is a silver tongued devil!

For outstate programs loyalty to community is pretty much all you've got.

To compete with the metro areas I think a couple of MSHSL changes might help:

1) Make the transfer rule 1 year varsity ineligibility for ALL transfers. No residence change exceptions, public or private.

2) Any financial assistance, scholarships of any kind, books - anything - makes you ineligible for the year you receive it.

3) Student enrollment size is determined by the total of the home public school district of each player on the team (wow, STA just got a lot bigger).

I would agree that the MSHSL needs to revisit the transfer rule, too many kids can beat the system if they want.

But for the financial assistance ineligible? No way. So a kid who is on financial scholarship would never be eligible to play a varsity sport?

[Froggy Richards]

HSHW is a silver tongued devil!

For outstate programs loyalty to community is pretty much all you've got.

To compete with the metro areas I think a couple of MSHSL changes might help:

1) Make the transfer rule 1 year varsity ineligibility for ALL transfers. No residence change exceptions, public or private.

This makes no sense. Most people move to other districts for reasons other than playing sports. Are you going to tell a kid who's Dad lost his job on the Iron Range and had to move to the Twin Cities Metro for employment that he can't play sports?

2) Any financial assistance, scholarships of any kind, books - anything - makes you ineligible for the year you receive it.

Believe it or not, some kids actually go to private school for the education and improvement in learning environment. There are Duluth East kids that go to Marshall. Are they doing it to get to a better hockey program? No, if that were the case they would stay with the AA team who goes to state every year rather than the A school who doesn't. If they are able to get a scholarship, more power to them. And would the public school kids have to pay their own way too? Would they have to buy their own books and turn down the $8,000 they get from the State?

3) Student enrollment size is determined by the total of the home public school district of each player on the team (wow, STA just got a lot bigger).

If you did this you would have to do it for open enrolees as well, which would put some A schools into AA. As soon as any of the Proctor or Duluth kids on the Hermantown Bantam team makes the Varsity they would have to move to AA.

[stpaul]

I heard that the kid who scored the GWG came from WISCONSIN. Is that actually true?

If you live in Somerset, Hudson, River Falls or Prescott and want to go to a Catholic High School, the closest ones are St. Thomas Academy and Hill-Murray. There is nothing scandalous about a student in these schools from western Wisconsin. Those towns are essentially St. Paul suburbs.

[pekyman]

I heard that the kid who scored the GWG came from WISCONSIN. Is that actually true?

If you live in Somerset, Hudson, River Falls or Prescott and want to go to a Catholic High School, the closest ones are St. Thomas Academy and Hill-Murray. There is nothing scandalous about a student in these schools from western Wisconsin. Those towns are essentially St. Paul suburbs.

I don't think it is scandalous, just more fuel to the fire that these teams at a minimum should be playing AA Hockey. I don't think he would have been at sta if it was not for hockey. What do you think the chances are that a D1 hockey player moves into/open enrolls into Little Falls as a sophomore for the 2013-14 season.

[Mailman]

To be fair Novak was born in St. Paul and his family moved to Wisconsin later in his life. So he is a MN native.

So ? Does his family live in mn now, or still wi ?

[thestickler07]

So ? Does his family live in mn now, or still wi ?

The point is he's not "from Wisconsin" he was born in MN. He's a Minnesota native who committed to the University of Minnesota.

His morning commute to school is ~35 miles. He probably gets to Mendota Heights faster from Wisconsin than a kid from Wayzata would.

[Mailman]

So ? Does his family live in mn now, or still wi ?

The point is he's not "from Wisconsin" he was born in MN. He's a Minnesota native who committed to the University of Minnesota.

His morning commute to school is ~35 miles. He probably gets to Mendota Heights faster from Wisconsin than a kid from Wayzata would.

If his family is living in Wi, then yes, he is from Wi. Come on.

I realize in this day and age of "It depends on what is, is", everything is some shade of gray instead of black and white, but if his family is living in Wi, he's from Wi, whether the border is five feet or five hundred miles away.

How much of his life was spent in Mn before moving to wi ?

[Bonehead]

HSHW is a silver tongued devil!

For outstate programs loyalty to community is pretty much all you've got.

To compete with the metro areas I think a couple of MSHSL changes might help:

1) Make the transfer rule 1 year varsity ineligibility for ALL transfers. No residence change exceptions, public or private.

2) Any financial assistance, scholarships of any kind, books - anything - makes you ineligible for the year you receive it.

3) Student enrollment size is determined by the total of the home public school district of each player on the team (wow, STA just got a lot bigger).

I would agree that the MSHSL needs to revisit the transfer rule, too many kids can beat the system if they want.

But for the financial assistance ineligible? No way. So a kid who is on financial scholarship would never be eligible to play a varsity sport?

How do you want to address the perception that a family receives substantial compensation from one type of school that another school can't offer? I'm not talking public assistance here - just trying to even up what is seen by many as an advantage.

[Bonehead]

HSHW is a silver tongued devil!

For outstate programs loyalty to community is pretty much all you've got.

To compete with the metro areas I think a couple of MSHSL changes might help:

1) Make the transfer rule 1 year varsity ineligibility for ALL transfers. No residence change exceptions, public or private.

This makes no sense. Most people move to other districts for reasons other than playing sports. Are you going to tell a kid who's Dad lost his job on the Iron Range and had to move to the Twin Cities Metro for employment that he can't play sports?

2) Any financial assistance, scholarships of any kind, books - anything - makes you ineligible for the year you receive it.

Believe it or not, some kids actually go to private school for the education and improvement in learning environment. There are Duluth East kids that go to Marshall. Are they doing it to get to a better hockey program? No, if that were the case they would stay with the AA team who goes to state every year rather than the A school who doesn't. If they are able to get a scholarship, more power to them. And would the public school kids have to pay their own way too? Would they have to buy their own books and turn down the $8,000 they get from the State?

3) Student enrollment size is determined by the total of the home public school district of each player on the team (wow, STA just got a lot bigger).

If you did this you would have to do it for open enrolees as well, which would put some A schools into AA. As soon as any of the Proctor or Duluth kids on the Hermantown Bantam team makes the Varsity they would have to move to AA.

Again, I'm offering up something other than rage.

1) A transfer = 1 year of JV or continue in the old school for that year.
2) Making a choice based on financial incentives is biased and unfair.
3) Yes, same rule for all. I don't see how you can see this as unfair.

[thestickler07]

If his family is living in Wi, then yes, he is from Wi. Come on.

I realize in this day and age of "It depends on what is, is", everything is some shade of gray instead of black and white, but if his family is living in Wi, he's from Wi, whether the border is five feet or five hundred miles away.

How much of his life was spent in Mn before moving to wi ?

Not trippin' about your definitions. St. Paul born, MN native, future Gopher, that's enough Minnesota for me.

And my sources inside the four pillars say Novak is likely to forgo the NTDP and will return to the Academy for his junior year. Guess hockey isn't everything.

[HShockeywatcher]

HSHW, maybe facilities would make somewhat of a difference. LFYH Board has been trying to get a second sheet of ice for years. It would be great to have, but then you have to pay for it. We lose potential hockey players now even when ice and the participation cost is cheap. If we add more facilities, the cost to play goes up, and participation could possibly drop making things worse.

What the hockey public needs to decide is, do you want the very best hockey showcased at the state tournament? If so, then leave it like it is and we'll probably have a private state A champ from a metro area most years with a very occasional public school winning it. If you want a level playing field for small outstate schools, then you need to either add another class, which no one seems to want, or somehow make metro private schools go up a class. And I don't just mean the Twin Cities private schools. Maybe its as simple as requiring the A champ to move up for a couple years. I don't know. Just some thoughts.

I'm still curious why you think these things are so limited. I can't speak about Little Falls from first hand experience, but I highly doubt that if you started a alumni/community fund with 100% of proceeds going toward facilities and providing equipment at reduced cost/no cost to the community you would get no participation.

There is no magic formula, but community involvement is what produces best results around the country. Communities of working class families where parents are working and the community is proud of their successes.

HSHW is a silver tongued devil!

For outstate programs loyalty to community is pretty much all you've got.

To compete with the metro areas I think a couple of MSHSL changes might help:

1) Make the transfer rule 1 year varsity ineligibility for ALL transfers. No residence change exceptions, public or private.

2) Any financial assistance, scholarships of any kind, books - anything - makes you ineligible for the year you receive it.

3) Student enrollment size is determined by the total of the home public school district of each player on the team (wow, STA just got a lot bigger).

1. You can't do it, people transfer for all sorts of reasons. We hear about the "bad reasons" but people transfer schools all the time. I'd put a large bit of money that somewhere around 99% of them, possibly more, have no malicious intent. You'd likely end up with hundreds, maybe four digits, of kids around the state unable to participate in sports simply because mom got a new job or similar.

2. So does that mean no sports at public schools since 100% of tuition is provided by a third party?

3. What about a free/reduced multiplier?
I'd be fine with something along those lines, but there are many schools public and private that would be unfairly hurt, when you could achieve you goal with something much simpler.

HSHW, arguing that a private school is on the same level playing field as a Class A public school is beyond comprehension.
You would have a better shot at trying to convince people that the sky is not blue.
I know you need to do it so that you can feel proud of what your team has accomplished.
Go ahead and keep fooling yourself, nobody it is buying it.
I heard that the kid who scored the GWG came from WISCONSIN. Is that actually true?
Hats off to the boys of Hermantown; they accomplished 1,000 times more in their loss than STA did in their victory.

When have I ever used the term "same level playing field?" Repeating it over and over does not make it true. I have actually multiple times said they are very different. Are you actually reading any of the things I'm saying?

It is still so amazing to me that Hermantown has led by at least 1 goal in 3 of the last 4 championship games that Hermantown has all lost by 1 goal, 2 in OT mind you, and by more than 1 in 2 of them and people talk about their opponent being a private school instead of the leads they have blown...

No, it's not true. He is from MN and currently resides in WI.

I heard that the kid who scored the GWG came from WISCONSIN. Is that actually true?

If you live in Somerset, Hudson, River Falls or Prescott and want to go to a Catholic High School, the closest ones are St. Thomas Academy and Hill-Murray. There is nothing scandalous about a student in these schools from western Wisconsin. Those towns are essentially St. Paul suburbs.

I don't think it is scandalous, just more fuel to the fire that these teams at a minimum should be playing AA Hockey. I don't think he would have been at sta if it was not for hockey. What do you think the chances are that a D1 hockey player moves into/open enrolls into Little Falls as a sophomore for the 2013-14 season.

Or maybe if the rule were different they wouldn't have chosen to live in WI. It only adds fuel to the fire if you don't understand the things you are discussing, which many do not.

Curious what analogy you are trying to make; he didn't transfer there this year...

[Mailman]

If his family is living in Wi, then yes, he is from Wi. Come on.

I realize in this day and age of "It depends on what is, is", everything is some shade of gray instead of black and white, but if his family is living in Wi, he's from Wi, whether the border is five feet or five hundred miles away.

How much of his life was spent in Mn before moving to wi ?

Not trippin' about your definitions. St. Paul born, MN native, future Gopher, that's enough Minnesota for me.

And my sources inside the four pillars say Novak is likely to forgo the NTDP and will return to the Academy for his junior year. Guess hockey isn't everything.

Family lives in WI, enough WI for me. Most likely, most of his life. Since the question wasn't answered, don't know.

Don't know what the Gophers have to do with anything; his playing for the them isn't a problem.

If sta wants to have non-Minnesota kids on their roster, they just need to do ala the other school that has the same, SSM, and play t1.

[Bonehead]

Hi HSHW! Rather than try to make sense of that quote mess I'll just start up again.

1. People move all the time and if they have kids a large part of their decision process is the school district. And if they're interested in participating in sports they can. Just not right away at the varsity level. Give me a better option and I'll listen.

You telling me Sprang just walked on and tried out for goalie at BSM this year? Or the two Blake kids? Gimme a break.

2. Interesting spin, but public school tuition is provided by ALL parties (including privates). Need based could be different, but it's not in our common interest to see an unlevel playing field. If private schools would disclose where the money goes we could get a better picture.

Is it OK for the Marvins to offer to buy a car for Jimmy so he can commute from TRF? No? Then how about a scholarship so he can afford to buy his own car?

3. I absolutely disagree. This was the one idea that I thought could address the anger over what the A tourney has become.

I want private AND public schools to compete fairly. Not sure what to do about Edina!

[Lazy Scout]

The three BSM kids families DID move to St Louis Park, adhering to the transfter rule.

Private schools give need-based and merit scholarships. That is why they have a wide range of socio-economic classes representing their schools. If a hockey player or a basketball or football player happens to receive a need base scholarship then unfortunately for people like you, it looks like they are getting some sort of athletic/financial advantage attending that school.

Your real issue is privates playing in the A tourney, making all privates play AA and let Hermantown destroy teams from Marshall and St Cloud. Until that happens, you will not be happy.

I still say if you make the class A championship 4 years in a row that you automatically are moved up to AA the next year, regardless if you are a private or public.