The rationalizing is quite entertaining. 35 games is the rule; my guess would be that when the rule was written there was a reason behind it. Practice to game ratio, I believe.
There just isn't anything unpredictable in squirt hockey. Post season (and all other) tournaments are covered by the rule; subsequent rulings have been made reinforcing the fact that if you intend to participate in a season ending tourney, you'd better schedule accordingly. These tourneys are not thrown together at the last minute; planning can be done. Neither is it a surprise that a district game is 4 hours away; there is no excuse to NOT plan any scrimmage on that trip at the pre-season scheduling meeting.
If the rule is a bad rule, get rid of it. If it's a good rule, enforce it. My two cents: the bantam teams that are playing 65-70+ games are the most successful programs in the state; they are also the most successful high school programs. I don't think they are successful in spite of playing a lot of games. I think other associations see their success and want to emulate it. I think many associations (and some districts) put the brakes on their program because they have interpreted MNH rules differently. Rule, no rule. Success, no success. The strong get stronger, and the weak get weaker - great for the strong, not so much for the weak, or for Minnesota Hockey and the kids involved.
Squirt 35 Game Clarification
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
Get caught - that is the key.puckeyone wrote:So throw the rule book out the WHY have the da-- thing printed in the first place, then let the associations do what they feel is best for the people, and if they want to play 50 games so be it, Im sure they have some commom sense people also
If I get caught speeding 6 games over the limit will i get a warning or ticket?
Get permission in advance is the answer.
But yes throw the rule book out - at least some of it.
Who in USAH in Colorado or in MH can determine if blue pucks for mites and squirts is the best training tool? And even if it is, are we not smart enough to figure those things out.
Give us the rules of the games, the rules for eligibility, but trying to tell people how to develop, how to have fun, how to be a good fan????
Mandates usually end up being bad things.
I'm sure the rule was written due to some team playing 50+. We all hate to be told what we can or can't do.
Here's an interesting comparison here to the MN Gophers upcoming 2009-2010 season -
36 game regular season
6 game potential WCHA playoffs
4 game potential NCAA playoffs
First game 10/16
Last game 04/10
practice Mon-Thurs for minimum of 2 hours + strength/conditioning
2:1 practice to game ratio
46 games maximum
Hey, maybe their youth coaches weren't very good and the Don is working on their back crossovers??
Here's an interesting comparison here to the MN Gophers upcoming 2009-2010 season -
36 game regular season
6 game potential WCHA playoffs
4 game potential NCAA playoffs
First game 10/16
Last game 04/10
practice Mon-Thurs for minimum of 2 hours + strength/conditioning
2:1 practice to game ratio
46 games maximum
Hey, maybe their youth coaches weren't very good and the Don is working on their back crossovers??
Sorry if it does not work well in every district or association. In D16 some assn's schedule more or less depending on what their local goal is, fun, development, recreational or some combination of that.InigoMontoya wrote:The rationalizing is quite entertaining. 35 games is the rule; my guess would be that when the rule was written there was a reason behind it. Practice to game ratio, I believe.
The 35 games had been a recommendation for years. Someone from somehwere complained that some squirts were playing 50 games. Before yuou know it we have a limit in place. some argued against it, some voted against it.
There just isn't anything unpredictable in squirt hockey. Post season (and all other) tournaments are covered by the rule; subsequent rulings have been made reinforcing the fact that if you intend to participate in a season ending tourney, you'd better schedule accordingly.
What are these?
These tourneys are not thrown together at the last minute; planning can be done.
But sometimes the number of games depends on how well yo do at these tournaments.
Neither is it a surprise that a district game is 4 hours away; there is no excuse to NOT plan any scrimmage on that trip at the pre-season scheduling meeting.
Squirts have no district games.
If the rule is a bad rule, get rid of it.
And so with the discretion as being DD I (and others) have altered the rule to make it better.
If it's a good rule, enforce it. My two cents: the bantam teams that are playing 65-70+ games are the most successful programs in the state; they are also the most successful high school programs. I don't think they are successful in spite of playing a lot of games. I think other associations see their success and want to emulate it. I think many associations (and some districts) put the brakes on their program because they have interpreted MNH rules differently. Rule, no rule. Success, no success. The strong get stronger, and the weak get weaker - great for the strong, not so much for the weak, or for Minnesota Hockey and the kids involved.
I am not going to try and read their minds or enforce my own philosophy on them.
I have been told I should not post on this or similar sites.
I think just the opposite is true.
Just because we disagree or some (or maybe all) think I am an idiot does not set me back in gaining other outlooks on rules, policy etc.
So, thanks to everyone for posting.
(And I hope to some degree I am helping you.)
I think just the opposite is true.
Just because we disagree or some (or maybe all) think I am an idiot does not set me back in gaining other outlooks on rules, policy etc.
So, thanks to everyone for posting.
(And I hope to some degree I am helping you.)
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InigoMontoya
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Squirts would learn to pick their heads up while skating with the puck; the weight differential between the smallest and largest squirt is not as great as in peewees and squirts don't generate the amount of mass-speed combination that peewees do, therefore the number and severity of brain injuries would be reduced if checking were introduced to squirts rather than peewees. The overwhelming amount of common sense, and the fact that they asked for permission, leads the district to rule that checking will be allowed at the squirt level.
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InigoMontoya
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greybeard58
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Time for some history.
Before the 35 game-cap was in place there were squirt teams playing 70+games a season. Some coaches in this category also had a 2practice to 1 game ratio, unfortunately these coaches were in a very small minority and most did not come close. There were some that played 60+games and had less than 100 hours of ice for the year and this included outdoor ice and quite a few were under 90 hours total. Mn Hockey steps in and now there is a 35 game cap with a strong recommendation of a 3 to 1 practice to game ratio. At this time controlled scrimmages were not included.
As usual sometime education of coaches does not work and a small group took the exception and had about 30-40 controlled scrimmages which in actuality were games with no stoppage or instruction just keep playing, to make it worse they actually bragged to the wrong people that there was nothing anyone could do to stop them. Mn Hockey steps in again and a motion was made to include controlled scrimmages in the 35 game-cap, the motion passed with a clear majority of District Directors voting against the motion but it still passed. Most Districts are willing to work with the coaches, where the problem is when the coaches decide on their own that they do not have to be held accountable to no one. When that happens usually they and the association are brought forward into a hearing to explain what happened, usually unless the coach is really arrogant and belligerent the association and coach get probation and my guess when a fine is imposed that means that either the coach, association or both either did not listen or felt the rules did not pertain to them.
Everybody has to understand that Mn Hockey has about 27 voting members, the 12 District Directors represent over 50,000 members but by the by-laws are supposed to enforce rules passed by the board. What works in District 16 might not work in District 12, each District is unique and that is a good idea, but sometimes problems arise because of that difference, not a one idea covers all.
Some Districts have been working on a shared practice concept that if followed would allow more teams sharing ice but not count as a game.
For those who keep complaining get involved a help your area develop and get better, if you are wondering how to change, communicate with those in your District, work to improve communications for everybody. If you live in a District work within the structure to improve that District , do not worry about the other Districts around you as they have their own problems and are working to solve them.
Before the 35 game-cap was in place there were squirt teams playing 70+games a season. Some coaches in this category also had a 2practice to 1 game ratio, unfortunately these coaches were in a very small minority and most did not come close. There were some that played 60+games and had less than 100 hours of ice for the year and this included outdoor ice and quite a few were under 90 hours total. Mn Hockey steps in and now there is a 35 game cap with a strong recommendation of a 3 to 1 practice to game ratio. At this time controlled scrimmages were not included.
As usual sometime education of coaches does not work and a small group took the exception and had about 30-40 controlled scrimmages which in actuality were games with no stoppage or instruction just keep playing, to make it worse they actually bragged to the wrong people that there was nothing anyone could do to stop them. Mn Hockey steps in again and a motion was made to include controlled scrimmages in the 35 game-cap, the motion passed with a clear majority of District Directors voting against the motion but it still passed. Most Districts are willing to work with the coaches, where the problem is when the coaches decide on their own that they do not have to be held accountable to no one. When that happens usually they and the association are brought forward into a hearing to explain what happened, usually unless the coach is really arrogant and belligerent the association and coach get probation and my guess when a fine is imposed that means that either the coach, association or both either did not listen or felt the rules did not pertain to them.
Everybody has to understand that Mn Hockey has about 27 voting members, the 12 District Directors represent over 50,000 members but by the by-laws are supposed to enforce rules passed by the board. What works in District 16 might not work in District 12, each District is unique and that is a good idea, but sometimes problems arise because of that difference, not a one idea covers all.
Some Districts have been working on a shared practice concept that if followed would allow more teams sharing ice but not count as a game.
For those who keep complaining get involved a help your area develop and get better, if you are wondering how to change, communicate with those in your District, work to improve communications for everybody. If you live in a District work within the structure to improve that District , do not worry about the other Districts around you as they have their own problems and are working to solve them.
I follow the discussions and activity around squirt checking very closely and have initiated conversations within our district regarding the same (not to change it within the district but to provide information to USAH as that is where this particular rule change would ahve to come from).InigoMontoya wrote:Squirts would learn to pick their heads up while skating with the puck; the weight differential between the smallest and largest squirt is not as great as in peewees and squirts don't generate the amount of mass-speed combination that peewees do, therefore the number and severity of brain injuries would be reduced if checking were introduced to squirts rather than peewees. The overwhelming amount of common sense, and the fact that they asked for permission, leads the district to rule that checking will be allowed at the squirt level.
BUT, I believe most Assn introduce checking to second year squirts before the end of the hockey season. At least the ones I am familiar with in northern MN.
I enjoy the discussions and it does help.InigoMontoya wrote:p.s. Don't ever stop posting, especially when you disagree.
(And I hope I'm helping you)
If you are in a position of power it is a good thing (a necessity, I believe) to listen to those that empowered you.
Not to do whatever the loudest group wants but to make sure all (or most) arguments are seen from both sides of the arguments.
(Arguments in a good sense of the word.)
My Bantam aged daughter wants to play Boys Pee Wee this would make her very happy can we get it done up in your district Elliott.. The pee wee coach is all for it, As well as all the parents sounds like a win win... If it is in the rulebook that she can't we could just ignore that.
I like how you work Elliott I want to stick by your side all the way to Paradise.
I like how you work Elliott I want to stick by your side all the way to Paradise.
Its possible.nobama wrote:My Bantam aged daughter wants to play Boys Pee Wee this would make her very happy can we get it done up in your district Elliott.. The pee wee coach is all for it, As well as all the parents sounds like a win win... If it is in the rulebook that she can't we could just ignore that.
I like how you work Elliott I want to stick by your side all the way to Paradise.
You can create a second roster for 'house' league.
They play within the difinition of 'house' within your assn/district.
Since we have no C teams because of numbers we will put a 'new' player on a lower level, but only on the house team. If in Warroad they play some games with Roseau, LOW or within the district as that is our 'house' (again because of numbers). Typically the player does not improve and moves to another activity or improves and moves up to the correct B level. Either way we have a new kid exposed to hockey.
I love following your posts. Maybe because they are soooo all over the board. Please tell me that the teams that play 70+ games are the best teams because they play so many. Is that what i'm hearing you say? Say it isnt so.... because i'm way too busy to spend all my time on here.InigoMontoya wrote:The rationalizing is quite entertaining. 35 games is the rule; my guess would be that when the rule was written there was a reason behind it. Practice to game ratio, I believe.
There just isn't anything unpredictable in squirt hockey. Post season (and all other) tournaments are covered by the rule; subsequent rulings have been made reinforcing the fact that if you intend to participate in a season ending tourney, you'd better schedule accordingly. These tourneys are not thrown together at the last minute; planning can be done. Neither is it a surprise that a district game is 4 hours away; there is no excuse to NOT plan any scrimmage on that trip at the pre-season scheduling meeting.
If the rule is a bad rule, get rid of it. If it's a good rule, enforce it. My two cents: the bantam teams that are playing 65-70+ games are the most successful programs in the state; they are also the most successful high school programs. I don't think they are successful in spite of playing a lot of games. I think other associations see their success and want to emulate it. I think many associations (and some districts) put the brakes on their program because they have interpreted MNH rules differently. Rule, no rule. Success, no success. The strong get stronger, and the weak get weaker - great for the strong, not so much for the weak, or for Minnesota Hockey and the kids involved.
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InigoMontoya
- Posts: 1716
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:36 pm
I used bantams as an example, but the same holds true for peewees and squirts. The point is: we all know bantam teams that play nearly or more than 70 games - they are heralded programs, the teams do very well, the players play at a high level. MNH and some districts lean on associations to limit squirts, peewees, and bantams to suggested game limits because it is better for the development of the kids; those teams usually get lit up by the aforementioned teams all the way through high school. There is a very strong correlation there.
I think I hear an echo, didn't we already cover the fact that the teams that don't follow the rules and recommendations are, in the metro area anyway, the large associations that feel they don't have to follow any rules. The tail wags the dog in the metro area. So which comes first, large association and tons of kids to choose from and good coaches, or lots and lots of games.....hmmmm. Million dollar question for those up and coming associations.InigoMontoya wrote:I used bantams as an example, but the same holds true for peewees and squirts. The point is: we all know bantam teams that play nearly or more than 70 games - they are heralded programs, the teams do very well, the players play at a high level. MNH and some districts lean on associations to limit squirts, peewees, and bantams to suggested game limits because it is better for the development of the kids; those teams usually get lit up by the aforementioned teams all the way through high school. There is a very strong correlation there.
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yeahyeahyeah
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The primary reason some associations are better than others is size and that eventually leads to the assumption that more games = better teams. The reality is that large associations are left alone by District Directors. Larger associations carry power and the districts recognize that. Larger associations have more people which equals more volunteers, more skaters etc...with greater numbers there is more money to pay better development programs etc... Basically they stay on the good side of District directors. By the time kids in big associations get to Pw's and Bantams, the athletes have advanced further and thus skill development is not AS critical as it is with smaller associations thus your theory, more games = better players shines.
I am part of a smaller association we scratch and claw to find every kid we can just to field minimum number of teams so that we efficiently use up our allotted ice time from our providers. We struggle to get volunteers to fill all of the district requirements, we get fines as a result.
Historically we have had some of the best players in the state come trough our program but cannot keep them through high school. In recent years we have dialed it back and really focussed on skill development at the young ages and it has helped we are now becoming competitive but it has been a long road. We need to work twice as hard as larger associations just to remain competitive. 35 games is fine by me but some leniency should be allowed for a game or two or three over.
I think Elliot has done exactly what he should for his district and his actions will help his district stay competitive with the larger associations. Other DD's and MN H should learn form him.
I am part of a smaller association we scratch and claw to find every kid we can just to field minimum number of teams so that we efficiently use up our allotted ice time from our providers. We struggle to get volunteers to fill all of the district requirements, we get fines as a result.
Historically we have had some of the best players in the state come trough our program but cannot keep them through high school. In recent years we have dialed it back and really focussed on skill development at the young ages and it has helped we are now becoming competitive but it has been a long road. We need to work twice as hard as larger associations just to remain competitive. 35 games is fine by me but some leniency should be allowed for a game or two or three over.
I think Elliot has done exactly what he should for his district and his actions will help his district stay competitive with the larger associations. Other DD's and MN H should learn form him.
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InigoMontoya
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yeahyeahyeah
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No not ok at all but the way it is. Our "leadership" needs to address the issue. I like the approach Elliot has taken by first realizing that there is a problem in his district then dealing with it. Do I feel that is fair to other districts, no. But I don't blame Elliot, I blame the shortsighted DD's elsewhere.
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yeahyeahyeah
- Posts: 119
- Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:12 am
