Squirt 35 Game Clarification

[InigoMontoya]

This fully supports the point regarding subjective interpretation/enforcement of the rules:

One clarification is that the district 6 tourney in the past has only counted for 2 games (IIRC) against the total since teams couldn't forecast how many they would play.

Why does D6 get to make this up? Much is published stating this is exactly opposite of how the rule is written.

Just last 08-09 season it was changed to 35 games and District Playoffs no longer counted against the 35 game maximum.

Who made up that rule? I don't see it in the MNH handbook.


Make up a handful of rules, let the golden children slide by without actually living by them, but make sure you put the screws to those you don't like - because you can. I certainly can't see why anyone would have a problem with MNH.

[yeahyeahyeah]

Hit the nail on the head Inigo. MH Rules are only meant for smaller associations while the large associations leads MH and districts around like a dog on a leash. Grow Balls please, nut up and enforce your rules.
It is suggested that I contact our District Director, that has been attempted before and rarely does anyone hear back from him. Oh we DO hear from him when we fail to supply ONE volunteer for the District tourney, a meaningful position mind you, assistant to the assistant penalty box assistant....we hear from him in the form of an invoice for $150 for failing to supply 1 of 100 volunteer hours we fill.

[elliott70]

Mark,
Can you answer how Roseau's Squirt A team played 41 games?

Yes, I can.

Two of their games were scrimmages not counted as games.
We do not count district tournament.
They called me in advance of the Fargo tournament and said they may get an extra game not knowing how well they would do - should they backout was the question - my reply 'no, it would not be fair to Fargo and we do not know what the outcome would be.'

I am the district director and have the power to grant this.
So based on our calculatin at that time they would have 36 games.

D16 we do not count our year-end play-off because we want everyone to participate - some would skip and try to get more competitive games. We do have a squirt league so this gives the opportunity for everyone to get to play 3 games against district competition.

Now, you want to stir things up.....
no, I will leave it alone.

[council member retired]

Not sure why the rules are not enforced. It is common for outside practices to have many helpers on the ice, that are not on the ice inside. They are not certified coaches, nor I don't think they need to be. For the obvious the team coach is still there. And to the other post, I left when this helmet rule came in. But we were clearly told by our district director that a helmet is NOT needed outside. Not sure why. It would be impossible to monitor when it is a practice and just the team going to the park to play rink rat. I don't think any directors are handing out fines to outside rink play, pond play, etc.

some are rather silly.
I don't think peewee c or u12b assistant coaches need to be Level 3 certification. Don't many associations struggle getting coaches at these levels? Why make it harder?

[elliott70]

Not sure why the rules are not enforced. It is common for outside practices to have many helpers on the ice, that are not on the ice inside. They are not certified coaches, nor I don't think they need to be. For the obvious the team coach is still there. And to the other post, I left when this helmet rule came in. But we were clearly told by our district director that a helmet is NOT needed outside. Not sure why. It would be impossible to monitor when it is a practice and just the team going to the park to play rink rat. I don't think any directors are handing out fines to outside rink play, pond play, etc.

What's a fine?

some are rather silly.
I don't think peewee c or u12b assistant coaches need to be Level 3 certification. Don't many associations struggle getting coaches at these levels? Why make it harder?

USA Hockey is changing this.

[sorno82]

Two of their games were scrimmages not counted as games.

Too bad you are not the D3 district commissioner, that is about a 10 game suspension there.. A few years ago they suspended a good coach due in part of having "scrimmages" count against the total. Granted too many games were played, but they kind of piled on the coach.

Fine an association for not having enough volunteers, or having a coach not wear a helmet. Give in to special interests and spend years in committee on some common sense issues like re-districting. Getting all bent over a couple of squirt games, but not trying to balance competition.

What we really need in Minnesota Hockey is real leadership to tackle the real issues that impact the game. Not happening from what I see. Minnesota hockey is great because of the local volunteers, not the bureaucracy of misfit middle managers we have now. In many districts, you have the career butt kissers get into the positions of power. No way to get any real leadership from that group.

[council member retired]

[quote="sorno82"][quote]Two of their games were scrimmages not counted as games.
[/quote] Too bad you are not the D3 district commissioner, that is about a 10 game suspension there.. A few years ago they suspended a good coach due in part of having "scrimmages" count against the total. Granted too many games were played, but they kind of piled on the coach.

Fine an association for not having enough volunteers, or having a coach not wear a helmet. Give in to special interests and spend years in committee on some common sense issues like re-districting. Getting all bent over a couple of squirt games, but not trying to balance competition.

What we really need in Minnesota Hockey is real leadership to tackle the real issues that impact the game. Not happening from what I see. Minnesota hockey is great because of the local volunteers, not the bureaucracy of misfit middle managers we have now. In many districts, you have the career butt kissers get into the positions of power. No way to get any real leadership from that group.[/quote]


Minnesota Hockey board does need to get involved more with the associations. Instead of telling them what they need, they should spend some time listening to what the members feel needs to be improved. Many on the board seem to rather turn another cheek instead of listening. It is amazing the program as a whole is this strong. It could be much stronger, and it should be expected to be no less then the best. Stating to attend the meetings while is a nice gesture is not enough.

[ilike2score]

I have very good sources that say many Squirt A teams exceed the 35 game limit under the current rules that includes scrimmages. I also have heard that the number one problem with retaining kids to play hockey is it is only fun if they are playing games...this coming mostly from kids....because they do not like to practice but would rather play a game. I do agree that 35 games for squirt level is a good guideline when following the 3 practice to one game ratio. But when it comes to reality...I don't think it matters whether the kids are practicing or playing games...just so as they are on the ice and having fun. Let a guideline be a guideline and each team adapt to what fits them. Placing sanctions and or fines on somebody for playing more hockey is ridiculous IMO.

[InigoMontoya]

In many districts, you have the career butt kissers get into the positions of power. No way to get any real leadership from that group.

It also seems there is no way to get them out once they're in.

I have very good sources that say many Squirt A teams exceed the 35 game limit under the current rules that includes scrimmages.

Under the current system the large, powerful associations and the forward-thinking districts are making exceptions to a MNH rule that is not written with provision for such. Smaller, especially outstate, programs without former NHLers and D1 players don't know enough to pick the rules that are important to follow and disregard those that are misguided, no matter how well intentioned, so they follow the letter of the law - because that is what is hammered into them by the district leadership that doesn't know any better than they. The successful continue to build on that success; the strugglers continue to become enveloped by the algae promising to suck them under.


Please, someone respond with "it's a volunteer organization, so volunteer". I love that one. The boards of many associations are entrenched more deeply than the districts and MNH itself. Board members form alliances with bantam A and/or peewee A coaches - the coaches will never be let go, no matter how atrocious the record has been or how poorly they've developed skills or game understanding; board members roll their kids through the A teams, uninterested in improving the program or any kids other than their own; and the membership follows the rest of the herd, afraid to rock the boat because their kids will someday tryout for those teams. Volunteer to do what?

[observer]

Did I hear the esteemed District 6 Director is in the running to become President of Minnesota Hockey? True? Are D6 members and associations supportive?

[High Off The Glass]

What we really need in Minnesota Hockey is real leadership to tackle the real issues that impact the game. Not happening from what I see. Minnesota hockey is great because of the local volunteers, not the bureaucracy of misfit middle managers we have now. In many districts, you have the career butt kissers get into the positions of power. No way to get any real leadership from that group.[/quote

Amen! Well said.

[yeahyeahyeah]

Elliot no offense I appreciate everything you do for your region and seemingly all of MN Hockey but when rules are subject to interpretation by District leaders how are they rules?
I am not knocking your approach on this, you have done the right thing by Roseau. My problem is that each district apparently can chose to follow a rule or not and this thread is proof of it.
So I have a question, based on the letter of the rule it appears that a team could simply NOT follow all of the guidellines and NOT consider it a controlled scrimmage and then NOT count it towards 35?

The following is what I imagine conversations to sound like between Mn Hockey and the district directors (most of them sorry Elliot).

Substitute Abbot for MN Hockey and Costello for a district Director.

Abbott: Well Costello, I'm going to New York with you. You know Bucky Harris, the Yankee's manager, gave me a job as coach for as long as you're on the team.
Costello: Look Abbott, if you're the coach, you must know all the players.
Abbott: I certainly do.
Costello: Well you know I've never met the guys. So you'll have to tell me their names, and then I'll know who's playing on the team.
Abbott: Oh, I'll tell you their names, but you know it seems to me they give these ball players now-a-days very peculiar names.
Costello: You mean funny names?
Abbott: Strange names, pet names...like Dizzy Dean...
Costello: His brother Daffy.
Abbott: Daffy Dean...
Costello: And their French cousin.
Abbott: French?
Costello: Goofè.
Abbott: Goofè Dean. Well, let's see, we have on the bags, Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third...
Costello: That's what I want to find out.
Abbott: I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third.
Costello: Are you the manager?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: You gonna be the coach too?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: And you don't know the fellows' names?
Abbott: Well I should.
Costello: Well then who's on first?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: I mean the fellow's name.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy on first.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The first baseman.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy playing...
Abbott: Who is on first!
Costello: I'm asking YOU who's on first.
Abbott: That's the man's name.
Costello: That's who's name?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.
Abbott: That's it.
Costello: That's who?
Abbott: Yes.
PAUSE
Costello: Look, you gotta first baseman?
Abbott: Certainly.
Costello: Who's playing first?
Abbott: That's right.
Costello: When you pay off the first baseman every month, who gets the money?
Abbott: Every dollar of it.
Costello: All I'm trying to find out is the fellow's name on first base.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy that gets...
Abbott: That's it.
Costello: Who gets the money...
Abbott: He does, every dollar. Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it.
Costello: Whose wife?
Abbott: Yes.
PAUSE
Abbott: What's wrong with that?
Costello: Look, all I wanna know is when you sign up the first baseman, how does he sign his name?
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: How does he sign...
Abbott: That's how he signs it.
Costello: Who?
Abbott: Yes.
PAUSE
Costello: All I'm trying to find out is what's the guy's name on first base.
Abbott: No. What is on second base.
Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.
Abbott: Who's on first.
Costello: One base at a time!
Abbott: Well, don't change the players around.
Costello: I'm not changing nobody!
Abbott: Take it easy, buddy.
Costello: I'm only asking you, who's the guy on first base?
Abbott: That's right.

Costello: Ok.

Abbott: All right.

YOU GET THE PICTURE!

[flatontheice]

Did I hear the esteemed District 6 Director is in the running to become President of Minnesota Hockey? True? Are D6 members and associations supportive?

That would be a bad day in Minnesota and a bad day for youth hockey. Not even sure how he got his current job.

[InigoMontoya]

Is there anyone out there at all, besides Elliot, obviously, that a district would recommend for the MNH position?

[elliott70]

Elliot no offense I appreciate everything you do for your region and seemingly all of MN Hockey but when rules are subject to interpretation by District leaders how are they rules?
I am not knocking your approach on this, you have done the right thing by Roseau. My problem is that each district apparently can chose to follow a rule or not and this thread is proof of it.
So I have a question, based on the letter of the rule it appears that a team could simply NOT follow all of the guidellines and NOT consider it a controlled scrimmage and then NOT count it towards 35?

The following is what I imagine conversations to sound like between Mn Hockey and the district directors (most of them sorry Elliot).

Substitute Abbot for MN Hockey and Costello for a district Director.

Abbott: Well Costello, I'm going to New York with you. You know Bucky Harris, the Yankee's manager, gave me a job as coach for as long as you're on the team.
Costello: Look Abbott, if you're the coach, you must know all the players.
Abbott: I certainly do.
Costello: Well you know I've never met the guys. So you'll have to tell me their names, and then I'll know who's playing on the team.
Abbott: Oh, I'll tell you their names, but you know it seems to me they give these ball players now-a-days very peculiar names.
Costello: You mean funny names?
Abbott: Strange names, pet names...like Dizzy Dean...
Costello: His brother Daffy.
Abbott: Daffy Dean...
Costello: And their French cousin.
Abbott: French?
Costello: Goofè.
Abbott: Goofè Dean. Well, let's see, we have on the bags, Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third...
Costello: That's what I want to find out.
Abbott: I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third.
Costello: Are you the manager?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: You gonna be the coach too?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: And you don't know the fellows' names?
Abbott: Well I should.
Costello: Well then who's on first?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: I mean the fellow's name.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy on first.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The first baseman.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy playing...
Abbott: Who is on first!
Costello: I'm asking YOU who's on first.
Abbott: That's the man's name.
Costello: That's who's name?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.
Abbott: That's it.
Costello: That's who?
Abbott: Yes.
PAUSE
Costello: Look, you gotta first baseman?
Abbott: Certainly.
Costello: Who's playing first?
Abbott: That's right.
Costello: When you pay off the first baseman every month, who gets the money?
Abbott: Every dollar of it.
Costello: All I'm trying to find out is the fellow's name on first base.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy that gets...
Abbott: That's it.
Costello: Who gets the money...
Abbott: He does, every dollar. Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it.
Costello: Whose wife?
Abbott: Yes.
PAUSE
Abbott: What's wrong with that?
Costello: Look, all I wanna know is when you sign up the first baseman, how does he sign his name?
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: How does he sign...
Abbott: That's how he signs it.
Costello: Who?
Abbott: Yes.
PAUSE
Costello: All I'm trying to find out is what's the guy's name on first base.
Abbott: No. What is on second base.
Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.
Abbott: Who's on first.
Costello: One base at a time!
Abbott: Well, don't change the players around.
Costello: I'm not changing nobody!
Abbott: Take it easy, buddy.
Costello: I'm only asking you, who's the guy on first base?
Abbott: That's right.

Costello: Ok.

Abbott: All right.

YOU GET THE PICTURE!

I am a big baseball guy (coached here in Bemidji for 21 years now).
My daughter bought me an A&C stand that plays this.
I love it.

And yes, sometimes I feel like that at the state meetings.
The District meetings, well, we try to do what's right by the kids first and then worry about the 'rules'.
Everyone in D16 will call me ahead of time with a perceived or real porblem that goes agianst the rules. I find a way to make it work for them if at all possible, sometimes taken the risks myself. I cooeprate with them and they cooperate with me.
And only one fine in D16 since I have been involved - 1992.
And they were given the opportuniity to reduce it and they did.

[yeahyeahyeah]

You obviously know what a district and directors exist for, to work for the association. Our district D's are in it for the larger association and themselves. More fines = more beer money

[elliott70]

You obviously know what a district and directors exist for, to work for the association. Our district D's are in it for the larger association and themselves. More fines = more beer money

I don't drink any more.







I don't drink any less either.

[TriedThat2]

It's probably safe to say that Mark's success in his District is a direct reflection on the tradition of the sport in Minnesota. Mark doesn't need to fine people because of the respect that they have for the system.

Would Mark's management style work in District 6, probably not, and that is not a strike against him, just the world we live in now.

[elliott70]

It's probably safe to say that Mark's success in his District is a direct reflection on the tradition of the sport in Minnesota. Mark doesn't need to fine people because of the respect that they have for the system.

Would Mark's management style work in District 6, probably not, and that is not a strike against him, just the world we live in now.

That's very true.
The metro districts and the outstate districts are different, just as many things are different between the two.

But some things are the same and one important 'sameness' is the necessity to listen to peoples' wants and needs, analyze, make a decision and then communicate back and in the process educate people (not on doing things 'your' way, but how to work with the system to make it work).

Again, easy for me to say this because I stepped into a great situation.

[trippedovertheblueline]

Did I hear the esteemed District 6 Director is in the running to become President of Minnesota Hockey? True? Are D6 members and associations supportive?

That would be a bad day in Minnesota and a bad day for youth hockey. Not even sure how he got his current job.

-------------------
Internally re-elected just a few months ago. Did you or others even know the position was up for election? Unfortunately not. It would be nice for D6 in this case to have sent notice to associations asking them to send notify their members that the position is up for election.

[TriedThat2]

Don't think he is supposed to be internally re-elected. Take a look at page 18 of the handbook. It is supposed to be a vote of "affiliate members."

[puckeyone]

Mr Elliott, I must take exception to your rulimg on the Roseau squirts game limits
1. To enter this tourney it must be done real early such as Nov Or Dec to get excepted, thus Roseau had knowledge of the possibilty of getting those games, therefor they had a chance to eliminate a game or two, but coming to you at last minute with that is just playing the game to get more games.

2. If they have listed on their website the scores of those scrimmages then they must be considered games as per Mn Hockey rule book

I am in belief that that Mn Hockey only applies rules to certain people at certain times and this has the smell of one of them

[elliott70]

Mr Elliott, I must take exception to your rulimg on the Roseau squirts game limits
1. To enter this tourney it must be done real early such as Nov Or Dec to get excepted, thus Roseau had knowledge of the possibilty of getting those games, therefor they had a chance to eliminate a game or two, but coming to you at last minute with that is just playing the game to get more games.

2. If they have listed on their website the scores of those scrimmages then they must be considered games as per Mn Hockey rule book

I am in belief that that Mn Hockey only applies rules to certain people at certain times and this has the smell of one of them

I apply the same criteria to everyone in District 16.
No one has asked who else, perhaps, played 36 games within District 16.
Common sense is our rule.
What is good for the kids, the coaches, the refs, the local association; not what is good for the district, MH or USAH.

My job is to make the associations in D16 and D16 work. Fines? They seldom are effective here.
Educate, communicate, cooperate.
Keep your own house clean by working with the DD. Bagley does not poke their nose into Bemidji, Crookston - EGF, TRF - RLF.
Take care of yourself first - your kid, your association, we have a staff that will take care of the problems that come up.

Being concerned over the team in the next community playing 36 squirt games????
Come on, taking care that your kid and the neighbor kid are safe and educated seems more important.

[puckeyone]

So throw the rule book out the WHY have the da-- thing printed in the first place, then let the associations do what they feel is best for the people, and if they want to play 50 games so be it, Im sure they have some commom sense people also
If I get caught speeding 6 games over the limit will i get a warning or ticket?

[DMom]

So throw the rule book out the WHY have the da-- thing printed in the first place, then let the associations do what they feel is best for the people, and if they want to play 50 games so be it, Im sure they have some commom sense people also
If I get caught speeding 6 games over the limit will i get a warning or ticket?

I think it's entirely different if a team that lives within driving distance of 20 squirt comparable teams, misses the limit, and if one that has to overnight for league games goes over the limit. If they have to spend the night in the hotel, than it needs to be worth the kid's and the parent's time, effort and money, and if that means throwing in a "scrimmage", why do we care?