Vick

[Neutron 14]

Wait here fellas. One big thing that the people of our country take pride in is the fact that we are "innocent until proven guilty." So we need to give him that privilege too. It sounds like he's guilty, but it hasn't been proven yet. And until it has, he's innocent.

If he is guilty, yes, he should be made an example of and be banned from the NFL to make an example for ALL sports out there that you aren't invincible. I just keep going back to one thing though. There was a football player who killed a person and got away scotch free. Knowing that, I'd say his odds are pretty good.

But hey, if he goes to jail, at least he'll have corn rolls to share with the other inmates

This is the exact opposite of what you just said in your last post of the Bonds thread

Just because it can't be proven that he's guilty doesn't mean he's innocent. This is an example of where being innocent until proven guilty sucks. We know he's guilty, we just can't prove it. If he's so innocent like you say gopher, why doesn't he prove it?

His posts were 15 minutes apart, how long did you think circlewatcher could keep his point of view? I thought it was a new record for him. He usually changes his opinion halfway through the same post.

[theref]

[quote= But hey, if he goes to jail, at least he'll have corn rolls to share with the other inmates [/quote]


haha, you are hilarious.

[tomASS]

I like the idea of attaching steak to him and letting the dogs have their way.

That is the only thing that would come close to justice

[HShockeywatcher]

It's not the "exact opposite" at all. Another example of someone putting down what I say without explaining it.

Bonds hasn't been found guilty of using a specific drug, but he is guilty of using performance enhancers, still not sure why he isn't taken in for that. Vick is also innocent until proven guilty. I'm in support of neither of them. Think both of them should be kicked out indefinitely, Vick go to jail, Bonds just go home and do whatever. They are both innocent until proven guilty. A lot will happen today to see what will happen to Vick, so we'll see what happens with that. This stuff with Bonds has been going on for years, and although it hasn't been proven it has been known for years what has been going on.

Neut and CNT, need anymore of an explanation?

[Govs93]

Bonds hasn't been found guilty of using a specific drug, but he is guilty of using performance enhancers, still not sure why he isn't taken in for that.

Bonds hasn't been found guilty of using a specific drug? You might want to notify MLB about this then.

[Neutron 14]

Bonds hasn't been found guilty of using a specific drug, but he is guilty of using performance enhancers, still not sure why he isn't taken in for that.

Bonds hasn't been found guilty of using a specific drug? You might want to notify MLB about this then.

Hey Circlewatcher!

[HShockeywatcher]

I know he's failed a test before, but didn't think it was for a specific drug, which the article doesn't say it was.

That's sad that the consequences are so low.

[theref]

Here's the my thought on Vick and being a professional athlete. You'd have to be a COMPLETE DUMB@$$ to even put your self in a situation even close to this. How can people with so much money be so stupid, oh yeah, they can afford to be.

The more I hear about it the more in makes me dislike our society. Let's give hundreds of millions of dollars to an idiot that hurts animals and flips off the people that pay $100 a ticked because they booed him, yet we will pay the people that do hard work all year round in worse situations and can keep themselves out of trouble.

DUMB!

[Knowlzee]

If you "dislike our society",....how about the society of China,....or Russia,.....or Iran,.....or Somalia?

Please don't blame Vick's sickness on "our society". He made the choice,...now he can live with the consequences. It was not you or I,....or "our society" that had anything to do with that. We live in the same "society",......an overwhelming majority of us make better choices every day.

Also, "society", didn't give him millions of dollars,.....another rich idiot, did. The rich idiot is willing to pay him that much money because he can convince governments with naive taxpayers to build them stadiums,.....and than the fans will also pay $100 dollars to sit in the seat they already paid for to watch Vick run around the field.

Personally, Knowlzee has given up buying tickets to watch the NFL and the NBA. If given tickets he may pay parking and go to a football game,.....he wouldn't go to basketball for free, maybe if he gets $50 (and doesn't have to stay for the whole game).

Baseball in the summer,....hockey in the winter,....what more do you need?

Punish thugs, when they are thugs,.....but don't blame you and I (society) for a sick knucklehead's poor choices.

[Can't Never Tried]

Here's the my thought on Vick and being a professional athlete. You'd have to be a COMPLETE DUMB@$$ to even put your self in a situation even close to this. How can people with so much money be so stupid, oh yeah, they can afford to be.

The more I hear about it the more in makes me dislike our society. Let's give hundreds of millions of dollars to an idiot that hurts animals and flips off the people that pay $100 a ticked because they booed him, yet we will pay the people that do hard work all year round in worse situations and can keep themselves out of trouble.

DUMB!

I agree...just think if he would have used the money he invested in the alleged criminal activity against animals and put it towards an animal shelter or something...it's just being stupid in front of your old buddies to look cool, as if he needed to.....you'd think when you had hundreds if not thousands of kids and adults wanting your autograph and cheering for you, and getting endorsements it would be enough to satisfy the ego..

Tiger Woods should open a clinic for "how to behave for overpaid athletes"

[Govs93]

If you "dislike our society",....how about the society of China,....or Russia,.....or Iran,.....or Somalia?

Please don't blame Vick's sickness on "our society". He made the choice,...now he can live with the consequences. It was not you or I,....or "our society" that had anything to do with that. We live in the same "society",......an overwhelming majority of us make better choices every day.

Also, "society", didn't give him millions of dollars,.....another rich idiot, did. The rich idiot is willing to pay him that much money because he can convince governments with naive taxpayers to build them stadiums,.....and than the fans will also pay $100 dollars to sit in the seat they already paid for to watch Vick run around the field.

Personally, Knowlzee has given up buying tickets to watch the NFL and the NBA. If given tickets he may pay parking and go to a football game,.....he wouldn't go to basketball for free, maybe if he gets $50 (and doesn't have to stay for the whole game).

Baseball in the summer,....hockey in the winter,....what more do you need?

Punish thugs, when they are thugs,.....but don't blame you and I (society) for a sick knucklehead's poor choices.

A philosophical debate will go nowhere here (or anywhere), but I would tend to agree with theref here. The fact that our "society" has made Michael Vick front page news because of this is a pretty clear indicator of how shallow our "society's" values are. A few months ago, you might remember the story of the guy in St. Paul who snapped 10 puppies' necks and threw them in a dumpster because he was mad at his girlfriend... I think we could agree that that act is at least as vicious and cruel as what Vick has done, and in my opinion is probably worse because this guy was projecting his act as a threat toward another human being.

But did he make national headlines? No. Why? He doesn't play football.

Our "society" has idolized these most of these goofballs who have freakish physical ability and have (what is perceived to be) good drama in their lives.

Take a look at Yahoo's "Buzz" index of most searched web terms. Do you see Darfur on the list? How about Iraq? Presidential candidates? Of course, not a one of those topics is in the top 20. Lindsay Lohan, WWE, Britney Spears, and Paris Hilton are all there. To me, that says a lot about why our "society" isn't right.

And you can throw the typical "what about Russia, China, Iran" argument out there, and it's valid to the point that there are certainly worse places in this world to be, but it doesn't address the fact that things still aren't all roses here.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go find out if Lindsay Lohan checked herself out of rehab yet.

[theref]

haha, I suggest the buddy system. All pro athletes that make over $10 a year needs to find 10 people they don't know and help them out with money for a year. Share that wealth a little bit.

Knowlzee, I don't really blame myself of you. Stating our society, I meant to show that many of these athletes often times get away with little punishment for these bonehead moves. I think in some other countries this type of behavior would be severly punished. Yes, I do realize that there are many great things about out country compared to others, but things like this just show me that we have room for improvement. As for the point that we don't give them the money, some rich owner does, well he gets his money from all of the people that go to the games, namely our society. So that was the connection I was making.

I've attended an NBA game, but that's because D-Wade and Garnett were playing and they are two stand up athletes worth watching in my eyes and there are certain others I would pay to see, but not somebody like Vick who even if he is not guilty, put himself in a poor situation.

[theref]

Here's the my thought on Vick and being a professional athlete. You'd have to be a COMPLETE DUMB@$$ to even put your self in a situation even close to this. How can people with so much money be so stupid, oh yeah, they can afford to be.

The more I hear about it the more in makes me dislike our society. Let's give hundreds of millions of dollars to an idiot that hurts animals and flips off the people that pay $100 a ticked because they booed him, yet we will pay the people that do hard work all year round in worse situations and can keep themselves out of trouble.

DUMB!

I agree...just think if he would have used the money he invested in the alleged criminal activity against animals and put it towards an animal shelter or something...it's just being stupid in front of your old buddies to look cool, as if he needed to.....you'd think when you had hundreds if not thousands of kids and adults wanting your autograph and cheering for you, and getting endorsements it would be enough to satisfy the ego..

Tiger Woods should open a clinic for "how to behave for overpayed athletes"

That last statement is excellent. The man is never putting himself in situations that could be turned on him later.

[HShockeywatcher]

I think it's interesting how there only people who are publicly putting him down. We have many forms of what people could call animal brutality that are legal, such as different forms of racing where animals aren't treated that great. There are plenty of places all around the world where people fight to the death and people bet on it. If you have a dog and you want to put it down, you can do that.

I'm not at all in support of what Vick did, I just think relative to what you can do in the rest of society it's silly to completely be upset with vick. I would think that instead of putting him down so much, this would stir an uproar to fix what's wrong with society.

[Can't Never Tried]

What!!
Putting a dog down in a humane manner, and feeding them gunpowder, and bait dogs and electrocution are not the same..

It's a choice, it was his, it was bad.

[HShockeywatcher]

Where did I say it was a good one? I never did. Nor will I. And you ignore the rest of what I said, like usual.

I was more referring to how people are able to treat animals not that great on a regular basis and now this is wrong because he's a celebrity. Just like Govs pointed out someone else who did, but no one cares because they don't play football.

[theref]

Where did I say it was a good one? I never did. Nor will I. And you ignore the rest of what I said, like usual.

I was more referring to how people are able to treat animals not that great on a regular basis and now this is wrong because he's a celebrity. Just like Govs pointed out someone else who did, but no one cares because they don't play football.

You are right, people shouldn't treat animals that way in any case. However the reason it is such a big deal is because he is in fact in the spotlight. Millions of little kids like Michael Vick, he's there idol. Now you tell me if you can see the problem this presents. Not everyone that abuses animals has such a large following watching every thing they wear, every word they say, and every action they take. Have to remember the young impressionable minds out there.

[Neutron 14]

What!!
Putting a dog down in a humane manner, and feeding them gunpowder, and bait dogs and electrocution are not the same..

It's a choice, it was his, it was bad.

Responding directly? "Klink, you eeediot!"

[Can't Never Tried]

What!!
Putting a dog down in a humane manner, and feeding them gunpowder, and bait dogs and electrocution are not the same..

It's a choice, it was his, it was bad.

Responding directly? "Klink, you eeediot!"

Ok so I had a bunch of $$ was "Bored" and made a bad decision

[HShockeywatcher]

One on ESPN commented on how many that end up in professional sports came from different walks of life, how someone like LT went to a dogfight when he was 10. LT decided that wasn't for him. But Vick didn't. I don't know anything about his background, so I won't comment on anything.

Just like the bonds thing, the thing that's unfortunate about this is that Vick would be the only one getting in trouble when many know that there are many other people in the NFL doing it. As much as the hosts of the ESPN show can get up there and say this was the first time they'd heard of it, it's been talked about plenty before this. We know many people do it, and it's a shame that Vick would be the only one to get in trouble.

[Knowlzee]

Nothing philisophical here,......Vick has done what he has done. It's fact. Govs, go ahead, and accept responsibility for it, if you want,.....but keep us out of it.

With regard to the media, your horse may behind and pushing the cart, so to speak. Has "our society made Michael Vick front page news",or.....has the media made him front page news. Are we asking to hear about this, or......is it constantly in our face (i.e TV, paper, radio, internet). Might the reason for the high "buzz index" also exist because the topic is already constantly in our face. How can anything else be on our minds?

Sure many people "idolize most of these goofballs", but it's not all, or even anywhere near the majority of people. So why then does "society" have to be characterized by a few idiots?

Sure this country isn't "all roses" (that's heaven), but it's the best. Isn't that good enough?

Finally, let's pretend Govs and theref are right, and it is societys (our) fault. What should we do about it? Or, are you referring to "society", as everyone else (not including all the good guys on mnhock)? Again, if you guys want to blame someone other than Vick for his poor choices, go ahead,......but keep the rest of society out of. He did it, nobody else needs to accept the blame.

[theref]

I guess I wasn't as clear as I needed to be Knowlzee. I wasn't stating so much that this was societys fault, just that it was more excepted in our society as compared to some others. I obviously don't take blame for what he did and do agree that he made his own choice.

I once knew a family where the parents did drugs. They had four children. Two or the children are drug addicts and the other two have never touched the stuff, so I believe that everyone makes their own choice.

All I was saying is that our society has become so accepting of violence and I see that as a problem. A 17 year old kid can go watch a movie at the theaters and see people get shot and hacked up in the most gruesome ways, but that same kid is not allowed to buy pornography. So most conservatives believe that sex and violence have no place in the media, but they make less arguments about the violence then they do about the sex. Which should be exactly the opposite.

That is just kind of the direction I was going. I didn't say we are responsible, just a lot more accepting and I think that it is wrong. Also, you know that there are many kids that follow professional athletes and if the thought of killing dogs for fun is put into even one kids head because of Michael Vick, that is one too many.

[tomASS]

and OJ was innocent until proven guilty tooooo.....oh wait that didn't happen, sorry. Is he still looking for the real culprits??

[Govs93]

Nothing philisophical here,......Vick has done what he has done. It's fact. Govs, go ahead, and accept responsibility for it, if you want,.....but keep us out of it.

With regard to the media, your horse may behind and pushing the cart, so to speak. Has "our society made Michael Vick front page news",or.....has the media made him front page news. Are we asking to hear about this, or......is it constantly in our face (i.e TV, paper, radio, internet). Might the reason for the high "buzz index" also exist because the topic is already constantly in our face. How can anything else be on our minds?

Sure many people "idolize most of these goofballs", but it's not all, or even anywhere near the majority of people. So why then does "society" have to be characterized by a few idiots?

Sure this country isn't "all roses" (that's heaven), but it's the best. Isn't that good enough?

Finally, let's pretend Govs and theref are right, and it is societys (our) fault. What should we do about it? Or, are you referring to "society", as everyone else (not including all the good guys on mnhock)? Again, if you guys want to blame someone other than Vick for his poor choices, go ahead,......but keep the rest of society out of. He did it, nobody else needs to accept the blame.

Where did you come up with this? I never once suggested that anybody take responsibility for Vick's actions, and to suggest otherwise invalidates just about everything you said in my eyes. It's a very pompus and arrogant thing to do... the statement of somebody who pretty obviously has no real argument to make.

But you go and suggest that the media is the reason for all of this? Is minnhock the media? No, but we're here talking about it, aren't we? In fact, I'd go so far as to say you're part of the group leading the discussion pack here... are you not part of society? Your arguments seem to be pretty cliche... "Don't like it? Move to China", "it's the media's fault".

Is it "constantly in our face" or do you refuse to weed out what isn't necessary? To me, it would seem as though you're allowing the media and others to dictate what you think is right and wrong, and allowing yourself to sit idly by and allow it to happen by saying "what can I do?". Here's an idea of something you can do to help... think for yourself and find what's truly important.

[tomASS]

or if you don't like what your are hearing on the radio, listening/seeing on the Tele, or reading in the papers........then each individual has their own off or censorship button they can use.

if they're selling it doesn't mean you have to buy it.