AGAINST the GRAIN

jr · Post by jr » Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:45 am

2 classes is what we have and it's a choice for Warroad to play Class A. I have always pulled for the small town teams, but I believe Warroad should play AA if their fans want to continually "TALK" about playing with AA teams. Warroad can beat any team in the state on a given night. So can about 40 other teams. See: Chaska over Eden Prairie for an example. Over the past 10 years or so since open enrollment and Eades as their coach they have been consistently good against both A and AA competition. Now they have 3 A titles in that time and 6 or 7 appearances. If they played in 8AA during that time I would say they may have 2 to 3 appearances and no titles. That's not a rip against Warroad just the reality of getting by Moorhead and a couple of Roseau teams, then beating three AA teams in successive nights while relying on a handful of kids most years. The AA attitude as some put it is really a reach. I have read a lot of posts and the conclusion I have come to is that most people feel it would be extremely difficult for Warroad to win a AA crown, as it is for all AA teams. There are simply more good teams to get through. Simply put, WALK the WALK instead of TALK the TALK! Warroad will most likely win the Class A crown this year. To get there this could be the road: I will also pick WBL as an example from AA since they have never won the title with some very good teams over the years. Warroads road: Park Rapids, East Grand, LOW, Orono, Virginia and Breck. WBL: Stillwater, Hill Murray, Centennial, Holy Angels, Eden Prairie, and Moorhead. Which road is tougher? That is the point most on here are trying to get to in my mind. Warroad has a fine team that can beat anyone on a given night, but to get the respect their fans so dearly want they will need to take the road that is most treacherous. I think all hockey fans can agree that Warroad is very good but the road to the Class A title is MUCH easier. I remember sitting with I Falls people after they won the Class A title with a fine team. That team had a few division 1 kids and a handful of other college players. The consensus amongst us was that on a given night they could beat anyone, but it would have been nearly impossible to win the AA title because of the depth factor in a 3 day tourney against teams that have more of it. That's called being a realist!

joe lulic · Post by **joe lulic** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:12 am

jr, Thats why we have 2 classes. The problem with the current system is the way in which teams are assigned to a class with no consideration given to the quality of the program. Slapshooter has gone against the grain of a lot of people around here in starting this topic. My opinions here might be a little against the grain of "against the grain" but I dont think pointing out that class A is just as good as AA promotes class A. If that is the case, why do we have 2 classes? Likewise, I dont think that the AA supremists make much sense when they belittle class A. Dah, thats why we have 2 classes. I think that the great one has exposed the system, even at the risk of going against the grain. We need to revisit how teams are assigned to classes. The class A tournamnet ought to be about Hutchinson and LOW. Or maybe it ought to be about Henry Sibley, Minneapolis Southwest and St Paul Johnson.

slapshooter · Post by **slapshooter** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:03 am

Well folks, how can I resist? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /devil.gif ALT=":evil"> Virginia (A) defeats Greenway (AA) 5 to 3. You know what that means. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> But of course petey, and his 'side kick' goldy will probably say that these teams are terrible or mediocre at best and shoudn't be taken seriously because according to their way of persuasion if you are winning most of your games you should be opting to AA. If you are a Class A team and you defeat a AA team then that AA team is terrible and you deserve no recognition because you are merely in class A. Is that right? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /devil.gif ALT=":evil"> If you are reading this, and prayed I would miss this Virginia victory and fail to bring it up in hopes that this thread would fall off the face of this forum 'cause you are as tired as I am of the AA vs A thing and figured that that's the only subject that goes ' Against the Grain' with a good many of the folks in these waters you are hereby dismissed. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> Are the Greenway fans now to complain that Virginia should have opted up to AA in order to win their respect? Or will Class A and Class AA kiss and make up and recognize that the Championship Trophies of both classes deserve equal respect? Or is that the idea that goes ' Against the Grain ' of more than a few of the folks that patrol these waters? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> ( .....and everything else is C<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... lasses.gif ALT="8)"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... lasses.gif ALT="8)"> L..... ) L<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/nerd.gif ALT="8o"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /alien.gif ALT="0]"> E, SL<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/nerd.gif ALT="8o"> PSH<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/nerd.gif ALT="8o"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/nerd.gif ALT="8o"> TER. (...a legend in his <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/nerd.gif ALT="8o"> wn mind...)

petey1321 · Post by **petey1321** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:06 am

You and I both know that you don't think those titles deserve equal respect, slapshooter. Take a look at the paths that the AA teams have to take to win the title and the paths that the A teams have to take, and the difference is laughable. Look at what Anoka had to do last year vs what Warroad had to do. It's not even close. As for Greenway vs. Virginia, you also know that both teams aren't any good. Greenway has been spanked by all sorts of teams, AA and A. Not to mention, they are a school that is actually SMALLER than Virginia, they just happen to have opted up to AA. Come find me when Virginia beats Eden Prairie, and then I'll have to make some concessions. Until then, you can keep making these bizarre posts and I'll keep responding with the same response over and over again until you get tired of it. That's fine.

joe lulic · Post by **joe lulic** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:40 am

The A Champion doesnt deserve equal respect? That goes against the grain of a lot of folk, around these waters and elsewhere. We have seen this kind of attitude before. "The world is round? No way." "Yeah right, sure you can fit a computer into one room." You paid how much for Alaska?" Its the same way with the AA supremists. Even when it is shown to them that indeed things have changed. They are given eyes but they do not see.

petey1321 · Post by **petey1321** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:03 pm

I'll just use last year as an example, because it's easier than speculating. Here's who Anoka played to win their title: Blaine, Armstrong, Coon Rapids, East, Holy Angels, Roseville Keep in mind, also, that Coon Rapids beat Elk River, and Anoka only avoided playing them because they got the top seed in the section. Here's Warroad's path: Red Lake Falls, Lake of the Woods, Thief River Falls, Fergus Falls, Orono, Simley 4 of those teams had 10 losses. 5 had 9. One was sub .500 (and were in the state tournament!). For that matter, 5 of the 8 A tourney teams had 9 losses or more. Are you kidding? Only 2 teams in AA had that situation, East and sub .500 (1AA, 7th place in the Lake Conference) Lakeville. Of course, if you look at Mitch's rankings from last year (and these computer rankings began this whole discussion, after all), guess who is ranked one spot BELOW sub .500 Lakeville? That's right, the best team that Warroad played in their whole trip to the "title", Orono. They were ranked 39th. I'm sorry, but when one champion plays 2 top ten teams in a row immediately after playing 2 top twenty teams and the other champion's top opponent is ranked 39th, those two titles just don't deserve the same respect. Warroad might be the best team in the state this year (so might Moorhead, EP, or several others), but the championship they'll hold is only worth the teams they have to go through to get it. And, as was the case last year and no doubt will be the case this year (I'll do the same exact exercise at the end of the year for this season), the teams the AA champion has to beat are leaps and bounds ahead of the teams the A champion has to beat. There's no real point in arguing against that, but I'm sure people are going to try.

joe lulic · Post by **joe lulic** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:38 pm

Seems like " the path we take" is the only criteria. Why not take the road less traveled and go against the grain. How about forget the path and the past and recognize that the demarcation line of the relative ability levels of teams at the top of the two classes has become a little hard to see this year..... which , if it continues, could change everything.

JLS 81 · Post by **JLS 81** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:47 pm

Hard to really pinpoint who the best team is with the two class system. At least when making determination on who is the very best. A lot of great teams Warroad, Moorhead, Eden Prarie, Centennial, etc. also a lot of good teams Virginia, LOW, Jefferson, John Marshall, Lakeville, East. The best of the best is constantly changing as we have seen in the past number of seasons (in 2001 Greenway and Cloquet we in the top 5) This season you have Centennial and Eden Prarie and Warroad up there. Good teams come and go that is the dynamic of High School hockey and what makes it fun. For guys like slapshooter, bluesbuddy, joe and everyone else it is fun to speculate just who may be the best. The "MAY BE" is the key work however as we will truely never know for certain under the current playoff format. That is just fine I do not mind watching A state games. Certainly I do prefer the AA as the teams are more on par so far as strength of matchup (of course in most cases). If I am a pinhead for thinking this way so be it, I have been called worse and besides it is all in good fun anyway. I do not know guys how you really fix it or if it really needs fixing or not. Maybe depends on who is on the ol' up and up. Virginia is and should be a team you all cheer for to win State A at 15-4 they are rolling along quite nicely. To my knowledge they do not get many open enrollment inquiry (maybe they do). Warroad takes a lot of grief and a lot of abuse is thrown their way. Maybe because the fans from there quote them as being the best, I am not certain why the source of hatred exist so much for that club when SLP, BSM, Lourdes, Breck, Blake, could proabably be accused of the same thing. Not trying to make this a private verse public debate just these seem to be the powers along with Warroad in A and when you roll into a series of success maybe you become the targeted flavor of the day. I guess my only rant is if Warroad thinks they are the best play up or else put it in perspective of the current A format. Again maybe the best teams this season will come out of A but my take is they still exist to a higher degree in AA.

Warroad11 · Post by **Warroad11** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:03 pm

Ok point taken last year Warroad never had to face a team that was going to win a section aa championship. But the point we are tring to make is that THIS YEAR, Warroad would have as good of chance to win as anyone else in the state AA. Lets not forget that Roseau not all that long ago came down and beat all those big AA schools, so we all know its possible to do. As for loseing to both Edina and Moorhead both games were basically 1 goal games(minus the empty net in Moorhead game) Games that could have gone either way. Also both games were close in the shots area as well so yes Warroad can complete and win a AA title this year. Not saying it would be a sure thing but put Warroad into that state tourney and anything could happen. Folks in AA need to get use to the fact that A and AA are not always that far apart, class a was made for the chance for more schools to make it, not for the losers to battle it out. Class A has just as good of talent and teams, time to open the eyes some all you AA people

petey1321 · Post by **petey1321** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:23 pm

As long as we're saying that, year in and year out, a couple class A teams could compete with the top AA teams, that's fine with me. But, if we're going to say that those state titles are equal in stature, I'm drawing the line there. It's perfectly fine with me to have Warroad believe they are the best team in the state (despite being 0-2 against the top 10), but my point that they never actually have to prove that should be given some thought. Again, the AA champ has to travel a much tougher road to win the title than the A champ. The best team may very well be an A team, but they don't have to prove it against the best competition, as I feel my last post pretty clearly illustrated. We can do the same thing at the end of this year, if you like, but it's not going to change a whole lot.

jr · Post by jr » Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:36 pm

I think 99.9% of us realize the top A teams can beat anyone on a given night. It's one thing to win a big game it's quite another to string 5 in a row together. Especially when 3 of them will be back to back. Petey brings up some good points. AA has more good teams and it's tougher to become champs because of that. A champs remind me of 84 BYU in football. They won the title but nobody really new how good they were because of the competition. My final thought: Why do the Warroad fans keep comparing themselves to AA if they think A is equal? I'm not trying to start a war just asking a simple question. Personally, I wish they would play AA because that is where they belong in my mind.

jr · Post by jr » Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:38 pm

I think 99.9% of us realize the top A teams can beat anyone on a given night. It's one thing to win a big game it's quite another to string 5 in a row together. Especially when 3 of them will be back to back. Petey brings up some good points. AA has more good teams and it's tougher to become champs because of that. A champs remind me of 84 BYU in football. They won the title but nobody really new how good they were because of the competition. My final thought: Why do the Warroad fans keep comparing themselves to AA if they think A is equal? I'm not trying to start a war just asking a simple question. Personally, I wish they would play AA because that is where they belong in my mind.

joe lulic · Post by **joe lulic** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:47 pm

jr, There really isnt any need to say it twice, most of us will get it the first time......geez. Its a good question but not just for Warroad. We need a new approach to class assignment.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 5:18 pm

If you are trying to put the best teams in one division then you will get back to Tier I & II which does not make sense. You need a sixteen team state tournament - not 2 tournaments if you want the best of both worlds. AA & A is a MSHL game that may not be the best thing for hockey.

Mnhockeygod · Post by **Mnhockeygod** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 8:35 pm

A sixteen team state tournament would not be fair the A or AA. First A would not win very many tournaments because there is a reason they are A not AA. To put together a great year and get smoked at state would seem unfair. Second it would not be fair to AA because they would have to play harder teams to get there.

slapshooter · Post by **slapshooter** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:33 pm

Yeah but, It'll be quite a while before Warroad gets " smoked " by anyone! It looks like they won't have Kyle Krahn back, who by the way is a very good player. (...straight from the mouth of Henry Boucha! ...) But if they get the other two back they'll be the ones who do the sm <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> kin' '..... These guys for the most part played Moorhead with just two lines and three good players on the DL. Some say they looked tired ( in the third ) but they spent the bulk of the third in Moorheads zone. Eades knows how to use his time outs as well to give his guns a rest when it is needed. Great Coach! One of the, if not THE best in the state! Which unfortunately goes ' Against the Grain ' of more than a few of the fine folks who've yet to see Warroad play this year doesn't it? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /devil.gif ALT=":evil"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /devil.gif ALT=":evil"> L<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/nerd.gif ALT="8o"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /alien.gif ALT="0]"> E, SL<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/nerd.gif ALT="8o"> PSH<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/nerd.gif ALT="8o"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/nerd.gif ALT="8o"> TER. (...a legend in his <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/nerd.gif ALT="8o"> wn mind...) Lucky for Moorhead, as well as the rest of AA, that they won't have to contend with the Warriors of Warroad again this season.

petey1321 · Post by **petey1321** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:00 am

Similarly, lucky for Warroad that they won't have to contend with Moorhead or the rest of AA on their march to the state title, eh? Or is that too "with the grain"?

joe lulic · Post by **joe lulic** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 9:21 am

elliot70, What is (was) wrong with a 2 tier system based on quality of program instead of enrollment? What does a 16 team tournament do besides add 8 more teams? The issue isnt number of teams its opportunity for programs that otherwise wouldnt have it. That is why the 2 class stystem was formed, I think. 16 teams would just mean that both Edina and Jefferson (for example) would make it instead of them trading off every few years. I buy into the 2 class concept but its execution leaves a lot to be desired.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:56 am

lulic Tier 1 & 2 was wrong because you were putting the 65 to 72nd best teams ina state tournametn while 9 to 16 watched. AA & A is fine because you allow the small schools to get a chance and YES more opportunity. If you (or the people interested in settling who is the best) want to determine it then you have your AA section playoffs and your A section playoffs and then bring them all together to playoff for the state championship. MSHL will never do this. Then, in a year like this, Warroad may have a chance to win a state chanpionship. Go back a decade plus and Roseau did it before the switch. But that is and always will be a rarity ecept for the private A schools which could complete because they can pick kids from anywhere. And, of course, with open enrollment others can do it also if they have the traditionto draw or the people to recruit great hockey players because they have good academics (???). Bottom line is this argument could go on forever between who is better but everyone should know that for the most part the big metro schools and Rochester and Duluth and Moorheas will usually dominate just onn umbers alone.

joe lulic · Post by **joe lulic** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:22 am

The 2 class system wasnt started so that the 9th-16th best teams would be in a state tournament, was it? It was to give out state and small metro area schools something to play for. It should help hockey grow. There shouldnt be a debate about wheteher the best in class A is a good as class AA and if there is, Houston, we have a problem. The problem with your suggestion is, as petey points out, the paths are different. Should Warroad (or whoever, the names will change from year to year) have a chance at THE state championship if they play in an A sectional tournament to qualify? That isnt fair. Maybe we should go back to tier 1 & 2 but have a 16 team tournament in tier 1.

rams1981 · Post by **rams1981** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:30 am

I'm not looking for flak from the likes of G&W, BIAFP and Jr so hopefully I don't get too bashed but after more than a few discussions over Frosty's the consensus from the Warroad crowd is Warroad is right where they belong in Class A. This year is a bit unique in that they can COMPETE with a lot of the top teams in the state AA. The problem arises when some of the youth of the town express themselves incorrectly believing that Warroad is the best team in the state overall, but it's kind of a be true to your school type of thing-it's a mute point they play in Class A and can't legitimately make that claim. The A - AA issue is screwy because take a team like LOW they put the hurt to Johnson a AA school. Each class is intermingled in the rankings with the AA dominating the top thirty fairly easily. There will be the rants Greenway and Roseau play up why doesn't Warroad-add I Falls, EGF, TRF and other in others sections don't just bang on one team. Looking from the other side although it's their choice should Roseau and Greenway be playing up???? Petey makes a good point about the A and AA champion they are different because the AA road is definitely harder. Also, the days of Hickory are over I know Roseau did it in '99 but will it happen again? Doubt it, not in my lifetime, the Metro and bigger outstate cities are going to dominate. It's called evolution. Our great game has been evolving for almost 60 years under the High School League, let's see where it takes us. So does a two-class system hurt hockey in Minnesota; definitely not, it gives the small schools an outlet versus being crushed by school systems that have the numbers. Just an example has Football Class AA or AAA Roseau ever played Class AAAAA Blaine or Minnetonka, should it, hell no someone would get killed. The same rules kind of apply to hockey.

rustyblade · Post by **rustyblade** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:39 am

When all the discussion about breaking up the Best High School Tournament in the Nation, one of the most sensible ideas that came up, but did not gather any momentum was to have schools play off as usual and take the section winner and the runner-up to the state tourney. Section winners would play other sections runner-ups in the 1st round. This would then proceed as bracketed. Potentially, you could see two teams from the same section vying for the state tile. Warroad vs Moorhead would be a very realistic scenario!

joe lulic · Post by **joe lulic** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:57 am

rustyblade, The 2 class system is here to stay, like it or not. What you describe isnt even close to a 2 class system. Its a 16 team AA tournamnet. What we have now isnt a 2 class system either. Its a clusterbomb with 2 different tournaments that have the better teams divided between them with some other teams that arent even on the same level. I mean, what will the score be if Warroad or Breck play the winner of 1A, for example. If there are going to be 2 classes, there ought to be 2 classes.

joe lulic · Post by **joe lulic** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:12 pm

rams 1981, You make a good point about this being a unique year. But what if it is the first of many? What if things really have changed? It could be. You give the football example but hockey aint football, you dont need that many players. Numbers are important but there isnt always the correlation that you see in other sports. Warroad could beat Burnsville and Lakeville. The #3 A team beat the #3 AA team last week. The #4 A team beat the #10 AA team. It isnt just LOW beating Johnson. This goes against the grain but we need a new system.

JLS 81 · Post by **JLS 81** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:28 pm

"Lucky for Moorhead, as well as the rest of AA, that they won't have to contend with the Warriors of Warroad again this season." Slapshooter, Just something to think about in the modern era of High School hockey. I really will not and cannot challenge your expertise on the Warrior club. But if as you say they are down to pretty much a two line team how would you expect them to match up against teams like Centennial, Lakeville, Duluth East or Elk River for a three game run at the title. No question I would like to see them (the Warriors play these type clubs 3 days running) compete but how would a two line teams keep up with clubs playing 3 solid lines a 4th line that is capable of spelling time for the first line? Duluth East ran into this last season against Anoka, they threw everything at them but the kitchen sink in the second and IMHO if they could have gone up by 2 going into the third I think they would have maybe beat Anoka. However the kids were gassed in the third, we were behind the Hounds bench about 6 5 rows up and you could see that Randolph could only put out two effective lines against the very deep Anoka club. Same goes for Greenway back in 2001 a very great two line team that literally completely shut down a very good Randolph's team in (at HB) during regualr season but had more than their hands full running the 3 day guantlet at state against Eden Prarie, Moorhead and Hastings. Not saying that warroad would not compete but what in you opinion make you think they could handle this type of play, especially if they were forced to only go two lines? No doubt I would like to see them play teams of that caliber and you have seen them a lot this year so spill the beans what gets them over the top against a 4 line club?

HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

AGAINST the GRAIN

2 classes

Re: 2 classes

How can I resist?..........by SS

Re: 2 classes

No Chumps

The paths we take

If there is a fork in the path, take it.

Who Is The Best

Re: The paths we take

Re: Who Is The Best

good points

good points

Re: good points

Re: good points

State

Yeah but......by SS

Re: State

Re: good points

Re: State

Re: State

Where do they belong?

Back to square one

Re: Back to square one

Re: Where do they belong?

Could Warroad Do It?