The Hermantown Thread

[Rails Hockey]

Wow, Scott really hits the nail on the head here. And I appreciate the MN nice part. If you say anything you’re told to “quit whining and get better.” As if massing talent from all of the programs that are supposed to get better isn’t part of the equation. In their 15-1 drubbing of North Shore the other night there were a combined 18 points from five kids. Four of them are open enrolled and have never lived in Hermantown. The 5th moved there in Youth Hockey. And speaking to the affluence/resources side of it that Scott mentions, the $1.6 Million they just had donated for the new Arena is from a Parent of another open-enrolled player. He sums it all up pretty well.

What publication was this in?

[elliott70]

Scott’s views are fine.
Many would like to see Hermantown in AA.

But Scott, you are supposed to be a smart man.
The AA - A only solution may or may not solve your particular problem but it would ruin a lot of long standing traditions across my part of the world.

Think a little harder Scott.

[ClassAGuy]

Wow, Scott really hits the nail on the head here. And I appreciate the MN nice part. If you say anything you’re told to “quit whining and get better.” As if massing talent from all of the programs that are supposed to get better isn’t part of the equation. In their 15-1 drubbing of North Shore the other night there were a combined 18 points from five kids. Four of them are open enrolled and have never lived in Hermantown. The 5th moved there in Youth Hockey. And speaking to the affluence/resources side of it that Scott mentions, the $1.6 Million they just had donated for the new Arena is from a Parent of another open-enrolled player. He sums it all up pretty well.

What publication was this in?

The Duluth Tribune Today
https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/opini ... s-programs

[rainier2]

Scott’s views are fine.
Many would like to see Hermantown in AA.

But Scott, you are supposed to be a smart man.
The AA - A only solution may or may not solve your particular problem but it would ruin a lot of long standing traditions across my part of the world.

Think a little harder Scott.

Would an exception for conference games keep these traditional matchups in place?

[rainier2]

Wow, Scott really hits the nail on the head here. And I appreciate the MN nice part. If you say anything you’re told to “quit whining and get better.” As if massing talent from all of the programs that are supposed to get better isn’t part of the equation. In their 15-1 drubbing of North Shore the other night there were a combined 18 points from five kids. Four of them are open enrolled and have never lived in Hermantown. The 5th moved there in Youth Hockey. And speaking to the affluence/resources side of it that Scott mentions, the $1.6 Million they just had donated for the new Arena is from a Parent of another open-enrolled player. He sums it all up pretty well.

What publication was this in?

100% agree with the "quit whining and get better" statement. Hermantown regularly beats the AA champ. Are other A teams supposed to set the bar at beating the AA champ every year?

[elliott70]

Scott’s views are fine.
Many would like to see Hermantown in AA.

But Scott, you are supposed to be a smart man.
The AA - A only solution may or may not solve your particular problem but it would ruin a lot of long standing traditions across my part of the world.

Think a little harder Scott.

Would an exception for conference games keep these traditional matchups in place?

I think a better approach would be a formula to force a move up.
Hermantown is not the only dominant single A program.
Mahtomedi, Warroad/East Grand
To name a couple.
And it can happen anywhere , anytime with any program.
We need a working solution- not perfect but a start and tweak it when necessary.
Doing nothing let’s it fester and develops animosity.
Read the girls hockey board.

[westsidescout]

It's time for a 3 class system; AAA, AA & A and just set them up like the 6A football playoffs (40 something teams each). They can have the ability to opt up or down one class every two years as long as the numbers work out. I know people will whine that it waters down the tourney but I feel it would actually be very entertaining and it would also help with numbers at programs who are typically AA doormats who opt down. MSHSL can charge more for season tix and feed their cash cow....win-win.

[elliott70]

There have been more than one 3 class proposal presented on this board

[Nostalgic Nerd]

Maybe it is time for the MSHSL to look at a "Success Point" system for classification of schools? I have heard North Dakota does something like this in football. You get so many points per year based on if you make the State Playoffs and how far you go. 1 point for making the State playoffs, 2 points for making the Semis, 3 points winning the Championship, if you accumulate so many points (say 12 over four years as you could get six in one year), you get bumped up. Everyone starts out with their placement based on enrollment as they do now. If you are an A school by enrollment and your four year "Success Point" total is over the limit, you get bumped up.

Every two year classification cycle, you take a look at the previous four years. If you are an A school that has been bumped up, and your new total falls back below 12, you can slide back down.

The MSHSL still could allow opt ups and opt downs based on the criteria they have in place now.

This one.

[Nostalgic Nerd]

Scott’s views are fine.
Many would like to see Hermantown in AA.

But Scott, you are supposed to be a smart man.
The AA - A only solution may or may not solve your particular problem but it would ruin a lot of long standing traditions across my part of the world.

Think a little harder Scott.

Would an exception for conference games keep these traditional matchups in place?

I think a better approach would be a formula to force a move up.
Hermantown is not the only dominant single A program.
Mahtomedi, Warroad/East Grand
To name a couple.
And it can happen anywhere , anytime with any program.
We need a working solution- not perfect but a start and tweak it when necessary.
Doing nothing let’s it fester and develops animosity.
Read the girls hockey board.

I don't think so. Hermantown is 4-7 in finals the last 15 years. If it wasn't for STA they would have even more. The problem is solely placed on them.

Mahtomedi has been the state numerous times but has been in 1 state final, which they won. Thankfully over Hermantown.

EGF won 2 straight but hasn't done much since.

Warroad hasn't even been in a final in years. My bad. They lost to Hermantown in the final recently.

Jeez you have to go back all the way to 2005 since Warroad's last title.

[Rails Hockey]

Scott’s views are fine.
Many would like to see Hermantown in AA.

But Scott, you are supposed to be a smart man.
The AA - A only solution may or may not solve your particular problem but it would ruin a lot of long standing traditions across my part of the world.

Think a little harder Scott.

Would an exception for conference games keep these traditional matchups in place?

I think a better approach would be a formula to force a move up.
Hermantown is not the only dominant single A program.
Mahtomedi, Warroad/East Grand
To name a couple.
And it can happen anywhere , anytime with any program.
We need a working solution- not perfect but a start and tweak it when necessary.
Doing nothing let’s it fester and develops animosity.
Read the girls hockey board.

With all due respect, you’re way off here. You cannot compare these three programs. Mahtomedi loses kids to Hill Murray and others. I know Warroad has had a few recruits in the past but I believe this years team is homegrown. Other than Panzer, who has EGF gotten for players? Not even remotely close to the 50 kids that Scott references for Hermantown.

It can happen anywhere, anytime? Cmon man! Where would Lake of the Woods, KCC, Bagley or Wadena Deer Creek get the players to create this situation? It can only happen in the TC Metro or Twin Ports. And the Metro has too many AA Private and Public options for an A team to mass that much talent. All of the Class A privates down there moved up when they were able. That leaves the Twin Ports only, which is where we are today.

[elliott70]

I will give you the metro argument, but Warroad/EGF get kids from other places, Mahtomedi (?) not sure but they could but getting the kids is not the point.
The point is the difference in quality of programs.
If Mahtomedi isn't head and shoulders above all the others in their section, then no one is.
EGF and Warroad dominate section 8.
St Cloud Cathedral could build a dynasty.
Alexandria is near AA size and very well can be in the section A finals or state tourney for years.

Yes, there are places it can happen.

A new private school in the Duluth area could attract kids and dominate section 7A down the road.

So, Scott's complaint comes off a little self-serving.
And his solution does not solve the problem.

[Nostalgic Nerd]

I think you people are getting way off track. It's about state tournament success. SCC, Mahtomedi, and EGF do not meet the criteria Hermantown does.

[rainier2]

I will give you the metro argument, but Warroad/EGF get kids from other places, Mahtomedi (?) not sure but they could but getting the kids is not the point.
The point is the difference in quality of programs.
If Mahtomedi isn't head and shoulders above all the others in their section, then no one is.
EGF and Warroad dominate section 8.
St Cloud Cathedral could build a dynasty.
Alexandria is near AA size and very well can be in the section A finals or state tourney for years.

Yes, there are places it can happen.

A new private school in the Duluth area could attract kids and dominate section 7A down the road.

So, Scott's complaint comes off a little self-serving.
And his solution does not solve the problem.

Before last year, I believe Warroad went a decade without making the tourney. They do import players at times, but they're still subject to talent cycles like most rural teams. EGF is located in a metro area, and they have successfully leveraged this into becoming a AA-level program, as evidenced by their youth teams moving up to AA this year.

The MSHSL has gotten into the business of deciding what level is appropriate competition for teams when they started letting AA-sized teams into A. I see no reason why they can't also make a judgement call on which A teams should be in AA.

I disagree with the take of Scott's comment being self-serving. I guarantee you his ultimate goal for Stella Maris is to play AA; he's not looking to endlessly stack trophies vs small town teams.

[Nostalgic Nerd]

The other thing is I don't believe it's right to "punish" teams based on future projections of dominance that haven't happened yet. With Hermantown there is 11 finals. It's very clear and easy to see.

[Schotzy]

Maybe it is time for the MSHSL to look at a "Success Point" system for classification of schools? I have heard North Dakota does something like this in football. You get so many points per year based on if you make the State Playoffs and how far you go. 1 point for making the State playoffs, 2 points for making the Semis, 3 points winning the Championship, if you accumulate so many points (say 12 over four years as you could get six in one year), you get bumped up. Everyone starts out with their placement based on enrollment as they do now. If you are an A school by enrollment and your four year "Success Point" total is over the limit, you get bumped up.

Every two year classification cycle, you take a look at the previous four years. If you are an A school that has been bumped up, and your new total falls back below 12, you can slide back down.

The MSHSL still could allow opt ups and opt downs based on the criteria they have in place now.

This one.

Relegation Format. Underperforming top league teams drop down while higher performing lower league teams move up. It has been around for decades and would work here. 1, 2 or 3 year cycle.

Limiting A teams to A competition will not work. Simply not possible geographically, logistically and financially for some teams.

[Rails Hockey]

I will give you the metro argument, but Warroad/EGF get kids from other places, Mahtomedi (?) not sure but they could but getting the kids is not the point.
The point is the difference in quality of programs.
If Mahtomedi isn't head and shoulders above all the others in their section, then no one is.
EGF and Warroad dominate section 8.
St Cloud Cathedral could build a dynasty.
Alexandria is near AA size and very well can be in the section A finals or state tourney for years.

Yes, there are places it can happen.

A new private school in the Duluth area could attract kids and dominate section 7A down the road.

So, Scott's complaint comes off a little self-serving.
And his solution does not solve the problem.

We disagree that it’s about quality of Program and not about getting outside talent. If you’re winning with your own kids then I say hats off to you and others can look to you as an example. If you’re massing talent from everywhere else and using it to dominate Class A then I say that’s an issue.

Scott has spent at least 25 years trying to grow the game of Hockey in Northern MN. He is exposing a major obstacle that’s keeping that from happening. He’s been saying it for years. If you recall, he went to the Hermantown School board five years ago and said exactly the same thing WHILE his kids were playing at Hermantown. I don’t think Stella Maris even existed at that time. Heck, he even volunteered to Coach in Proctor while he had kids playing at Hermantown and Scholastica. Would have been pretty easy to just relax and go watch them play. Pretty tough to question his motives when you look at the big picture. To say it’s self serving is really missing the boat in my opinion. That’s what all the Hermantown folks are saying today because they can’t challenge any of the facts in the article. It’s all they have to go on.

[elliott70]

I think you people are getting way off track. It's about state tournament success. SCC, Mahtomedi, and EGF do not meet the criteria Hermantown does.

no

[elliott70]

I will give you the metro argument, but Warroad/EGF get kids from other places, Mahtomedi (?) not sure but they could but getting the kids is not the point.
The point is the difference in quality of programs.
If Mahtomedi isn't head and shoulders above all the others in their section, then no one is.
EGF and Warroad dominate section 8.
St Cloud Cathedral could build a dynasty.
Alexandria is near AA size and very well can be in the section A finals or state tourney for years.

Yes, there are places it can happen.

A new private school in the Duluth area could attract kids and dominate section 7A down the road.

So, Scott's complaint comes off a little self-serving.
And his solution does not solve the problem.

We disagree that it’s about quality of Program and not about getting outside talent. If you’re winning with your own kids then I say hats off to you and others can look to you as an example. If you’re massing talent from everywhere else and using it to dominate Class A then I say that’s an issue.

Scott has spent at least 25 years trying to grow the game of Hockey in Northern MN. He is exposing a major obstacle that’s keeping that from happening. He’s been saying it for years. If you recall, he went to the Hermantown School board five years ago and said exactly the same thing WHILE his kids were playing at Hermantown. I don’t think Stella Maris even existed at that time. Heck, he even volunteered to Coach in Proctor while he had kids playing at Hermantown and Scholastica. Would have been pretty easy to just relax and go watch them play. Pretty tough to question his motives when you look at the big picture. To say it’s self serving is really missing the boat in my opinion. That’s what all the Hermantown folks are saying today because they can’t challenge any of the facts in the article. It’s all they have to go on.

I think any lack of growth in the Duluth or iron range area is not because of Hermantown.
Economics plays a much larger part in the demise of northeastern hockey success.

[StanleyCup55]

I will give you the metro argument, but Warroad/EGF get kids from other places, Mahtomedi (?) not sure but they could but getting the kids is not the point.
The point is the difference in quality of programs.
If Mahtomedi isn't head and shoulders above all the others in their section, then no one is.
EGF and Warroad dominate section 8.
St Cloud Cathedral could build a dynasty.
Alexandria is near AA size and very well can be in the section A finals or state tourney for years.

Yes, there are places it can happen.

A new private school in the Duluth area could attract kids and dominate section 7A down the road.

So, Scott's complaint comes off a little self-serving.
And his solution does not solve the problem.

We disagree that it’s about quality of Program and not about getting outside talent. If you’re winning with your own kids then I say hats off to you and others can look to you as an example. If you’re massing talent from everywhere else and using it to dominate Class A then I say that’s an issue.

Scott has spent at least 25 years trying to grow the game of Hockey in Northern MN. He is exposing a major obstacle that’s keeping that from happening. He’s been saying it for years. If you recall, he went to the Hermantown School board five years ago and said exactly the same thing WHILE his kids were playing at Hermantown. I don’t think Stella Maris even existed at that time. Heck, he even volunteered to Coach in Proctor while he had kids playing at Hermantown and Scholastica. Would have been pretty easy to just relax and go watch them play. Pretty tough to question his motives when you look at the big picture. To say it’s self serving is really missing the boat in my opinion. That’s what all the Hermantown folks are saying today because they can’t challenge any of the facts in the article. It’s all they have to go on.

I think any lack of growth in the Duluth or iron range area is not because of Hermantown.
Economics plays a much larger part in the demise of northeastern hockey success.

The economy up there definitely has a huge role in the overall numbers in the 218 but what Hermantown is doing is accelerating that process and making it worse. It’s not as big of a big deal if they move up to AA because then they compete against the same level of competition which gives the teams that have been affected by the economics more of a reason to play and have the success of reaching state once or twice every 10 years.

It’s actually pretty amazing to me that anyone would defend Hermantown here. It’s so blatant and obvious and just plain sickening.

[elliott70]

Apparently I need to interpret my statement, again.
I would like to see Hermantown play AA.

What I was ‘attacking’ is Pionk’s solution.
Which it is not.
Only playing against your own level would decimate almost all schedules across the state, in all sports. Especially in the more rural errors.

Please take the time to read.

[Nostalgic Nerd]

I think you people are getting way off track. It's about state tournament success. SCC, Mahtomedi, and EGF do not meet the criteria Hermantown does.

no

Why?

[elliott70]

I think you people are getting way off track. It's about state tournament success. SCC, Mahtomedi, and EGF do not meet the criteria Hermantown does.

no

Why?

For me the problem is back in sections where a few teams dominate every year if not one it’s another
Warroad-East Grand
Hermantown
Mahtomedi - other than the privates that have moved off to AA Maht has owned the section.

Other sections have been balanced out a bit
But new ulm- Lucerne and now Mankato
And others.

At state Wednesday is usually unb as lanced but the two games Friday and the ship are very good games.

AA is not as unbalanced but
…

[elliott70]

no

Why?

For me the problem is back in sections where a few teams dominate every year if not one it’s another
Warroad-East Grand
Hermantown
Mahtomedi

Other sections have been balanced out a bit
But new ulm- Lucerne and now Mankato
And others.

At state Wednesday is usually unb as lanced but the two games Friday and the ship are very good games.

AA is not as unbalanced but
…

Hermantown is the poster child
And Wednesday other than maybe the 4-5 game are not at all competitive.

[Getitright]

Having a hard time with the latest posts. I would consider myself a friend and a supporter of MOST of his ideas. HHS should be aa. I have coached with him and coached a couple of his sons. What bothers me most about what Scott is saying is that I was present and heard him over and over again try and get his Lake Superior Stars kids to come to Hermantown when it would benefit his kids. I SAW this happen. Now, when his kids are done, it somehow changes. How come?