Mpls City Hockey

hockeydad · Post by **hockeydad** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:04 pm

Haven't seen much on this board about the demise of Edison's program. There were a few articles in the daily papers, but not much more. The Star Tribune now has a blog about high school sports. Roman Augustoviz has a long account of a meeting with city hockey supporters about the future of hockey in Minneapolis. Interesting stuff...Here's a link. <a href="http://nc.startribune.com/blogs/preps/? ...

topshelf11 · Post by **topshelf11** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:06 pm

Here's my take on city hockey being a Bantam last year and living in the city. Personally, I didn't go to the city schools because of the academics, not because of the poor hockey. I think that this is true for many of the hockey players that transfer out of the city to schools like Holy Angels, Benilde, Blake, Richfield, and St. Thomas. I think that if the Minneapolis Public Schools could get their act together more kids would stay. Another reason why the players are so low is the demographics of the city. This is going to sound very stereotypical but there are not as many middle to upper class white families as there are in say Wayzata or Lakeville. I think that the city hockey conference should fold and make one team. I am sad to see the tradition go away but it is completely necessary. I mean it isn't going to change soon. Last year, in my association 30 kids tried out for bantams. I think that the talent is there it is just a matter of making one big organization to get some good competition in. I hope the best for city hockey. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p074.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... shelf11</A> at: 9/27/05 10:08 pm

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:04 pm

Great link hockeydad, everyone should take time and read it, it's too bad this doesn't end up in the regular Strib. It's with much sadness that I watch the demise of both the Minneapolis and St. Paul hockey traditions. There is so much blame to go around and it hits every level of hockey. The demographics of Minneaplis and St. Paul do hurt, but to say that because you're black, hispanic or asian and those groups don't play hockey is the reason that hockey is dieing is a cop out at minimum if not out and out racism. The kids who live in Minneapolis, regardless of race, have as much if not more hockey tradition than kids in Worthington, Long Prarie, Sleepy Eye, or Benson. Yet they field teams, and it's not because of transplanted Rangers or Canadiens have up and moved there. When the biggest city in the "State of Hockey" can only muster 3 high school teams (out of 7 possible) and a mere 94 kids expressing interest, something is seriously out of whack. USA Hockey takes so much money out of our state, and worse MAHA allows it. How about putting some of it back into Minnesota's kids, and not just the elite? If we took just half the money USA Hockey takes and used it to set up Police Athletic Leagues or Boy's and Girl's club programs in not only Minneapolis and St. Paul but other economically challenged areas as well we'd be much better off.

puckhead89 · Post by **puckhead89** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:13 pm

I agree this was a very interesting article to read and to educate those who live outside of the Minneapolis area, like me. I am sure those who are experiencing this downhill trend are very frustrated. However, I disagree that the demise is largely due to kids leaving the area to go play hockey elsewhere. The press on the Minneapolis school district has been less than complimentary. This school district has been struggling for some time now with cuts, with poor choices made by some administrators and bad press. I wouldn't care if they had the best hockey program in the state...if they can't compete academically with other public schools...well that is the test. I struggle with blame throwing at Minnesota hockey. Maybe there is something more USA hockey or Minnesota hockey can do, I don't know. Certainly worth a try to see if there is some aid they can give. But responsibility to fix things rests primarily on the shoulders of the administrators of the Minneapolis school district. Just my two cents.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:49 pm

Minnesota Hockey does have a diversity committee with a budget. Is its enough of an effort? I am not the one to judge being 200+ miles away. Can we divert Minnesota dollars earmarked for USA Hockey away to other programs? No. The money is sent from associations directly to USA Hockey. Even if it was not, we still answer to them, like it or not. But Minneapolis' problems are not unique within Minnesota. Chisholm does not have a high school program this year. Mesabi East, ditto. Hallock, the site of the first hockey in Minnesota, does not have a bantam program becasue the kids are needed to fill out varsity/JV programs. Where is Eveleth's bantam program at? Check Greenway of Coleraine's numbers. There are definitely have's and have not's within MN Hockey youth programs. Rochester, Moorhead, perhaps Dultuh, and the burbs of the Twin Cities may not have too few numbers, but most everywhere else IT IS A SIGNIFICANT, EVEN FRIGHTENING, PROBLEM. As I said in another thread, we all need to concentrate on RECRUITING. Recruiting boys and girls to hockey. Not to my program or your program. Is USA Hockey doing enough? Is Minnesota Hockey doing enough? My opinion on both questions is "NO!" What should be done to help Minneapolis hockey, Iron Range hockey, all of our programs? Give me some ideas.

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:21 pm

It probably isn't this easy, but why does every kid have to be a member of USA Hockey? The top levels have to be I realize that, but why the lower levels, wouldn't it be easier to have a state (MAHA) level that takes care of them? Much like little league baseball is run, top kids are in one league affiliated with USA Hockey, everyone else is in a local league not affiliated with the National governing body. Take the local money add a surcharge, much like USA Hockey does, and give it to MAHA for development, recruitment, and retention programs. Programs like I mentioned earlier; PAL, Boy's and Girl's clubs, even community education do a great job with basketball, baseball, and football at a grass roots level. Not only that, but they have a feel for the pulse of the community where as USA Hockey doesn't. Give these groups some money and see what they can do. Just some equipment and some outdoor ice might do wonders. Forget the practice to games ratio and focus on having fun with these kids. Rochester (pop. 92,000), aside from Edina, has probably the highest per capita income of any youth hockey association in the state. This year we will probably field 5 Bantam teams and 7 PeeWee teams total. John Marshall has struggled to feild a JV team the past 5 years, using seniors just to make a roster. I believe Mayo will be experiancing the same problem in the very near future as well. The drop off in numbers from the mid '80's is staggering, and unlike many places the economy is growing rapidly here. So why are the numbers dropping? There is a angry debate going on in the community about it and what to do. Personally I'm starting to side with the faction that wants to just let those who want go to AAA go and let the rest just play Rec level hockey. The expense and time committment of traveling hockey is killing it. Up until the explosion in traveling hockey in the late '80's both JM and Mayo's rosters were largely made up of rink kids and nearly every year one of the teams was a top 10 team. Since then numbers have dropped and so has the interest in and quality of hockey. The more kids that play the more talent you're going to have, it's pretty simple. Yet we cater to the few and leave the rest to fade away, it makes no sense.

John04 · Post by **John04** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:07 am

I disagree totally with your comment that saying different ethnic groups do not play hockey is racism. I am in the heart of an inner city program that for many years now has tried to expose other cultures to hockey. We went as far as to giving them free gear, free ice time and rides to the rink. We have done this for many years. Out of all the years we have done this guess how many kids moved on from this program to ours? 1 thats right 1 and he now skates for a different area. Hockey is still a white middle to upper class sport. I hate that but it is true. And those of you who say Minnesota Hockey has nothing to do with the problems in the inner city programs, Boy do they have you fooled. Lets look at their reasons for trying to disband the TC district. Other teams were complaining that the TC district got to send teams to the regional playoffs. The Suburban teams believed that they should get more teams in the regions because their leagues and teams were better. So what did Minnesota hockey do, they tried to move the St paul teams to district 2 and the Minneapolis teams in with bloomington and those teams. It took some high respected people to go and speak for the inner city programs to save our league. Now they are doing the right thing by trying to move some of the first tier suburb teams that do not have huge numbers into the TC district.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:10 am

The demographics of these areas have changed dramatically. Different ethnics, different family structures, different traditions that dont include hockey. Thats not a racist comment..its a fact. Its not just the inner city, its some first tier suburbs too. Baseball is experiencing some of the same issues in the inner city. But I think , overall, hockey numbers are up. The locations of the hockey "hotbeds" change but kdis play in increasing numbers. Why? I play the same sports my dad played. My sons play the same sports I played. My dad fished..I fish. My dad played golf..I play golf. He never hunted...I dont hunt. My sons...ditto. Thats just the way it is. You can poor money into it if you want, but it isnt going to change anything.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:06 am

Excellent feed back. Different opinons, but that is what brings to light movement. John - The TC district fold is not quiet settled yet. There are on going meetings regarding restructure/redistricting. Not everyone is in agreement that TC should survive, nor do they think it should be disbanded. So what does that mean? Everyone is thinking about the pros and cons of what has been discussed and are giving more thought to what the appropiriate move should be. And this is not just about TC. The IR amy have to be restructured, D10. Demographics have changed across the state. Then there is the issue of A, B and possibly AA. And then there is AAA hockey. Lee/Mitch - I know this is youth hockey but it feeds into the HS dilema, but if you wish to move MY comments that is why we have you guys.

John04 · Post by **John04** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:42 am

I do agree with elliot that this is starting to get into a youth dicussion, but the youth programs will determine if the high schools survive. Just recently we were informed that the TC district will stay alive. If it is still being discussed then we are getting bad info. If the TC district is eliminated you might as well eliminate High School Hockey in the inner city too. The only programs that are strong enough to survive a move would be Highland/Central and Johnson from St Paul. I don't think that any of the Minnepolis Schools would be able to survive. High School hockey in the inner city has a long and proud tradition. I just hope it can continue and some day return to glory by sending a team to the tourny.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:15 am

I am not sure where you are getting your information, but the Ad-Hoc committee of district directors is still meeting regarding changes. No presentation has been made to the full board. There are several things still being discussed and nothing has been eliminated as a possibility. You should maintain contact with your DD and please let me know your thoughts at elliottm@paulbunyan.net Mark Elliott District 16 Director

ChrisK · Post by **ChrisK** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:31 pm

First off, packerboy makes the point that kids will play the sports their parents play. Not in all cases, my dad was not a sports fan and I played baseball through the junior high level. My son has played soccer the last two falls, I never played soccer. What I do think is important is parental involvement at some level, whether it be coaching, attending games or just supporting your child's interest. Hockey is a white middle to upper class sport for a couple of reasons. The main reason is financial, the equipment and ice time are very expensive plus it requires a lot of parental involvement driving to practice and games, sometimes 4 nights a week or more and a single parent or one who works two jobs can't make that commitment. The cultural aspect is also a factor as exposure to hockey is limited, even within the U.S. From the blog it sounds like the grassroots in Minneapolis and St.Paul aren't in horrible shape but it seems like that's where you'd have to start. I know St.Paul and Minneapolis have a lot of outdoor rinks, maybe you could start with cheap or even free skating lessons like every Tuesday and Thursday after school for as long as the ice is good. A friend of mine tells me that the people bring their old skates to the warming house near where he lives for kids without skates to use, maybe a program could be set up across the cities like that. As kids get more skilled at skating, you could add stick handling and passing drills and games of shinny. The point would be to expose kids to the game without asking them to shell out a ton of money or make a huge time commitment. Maybe none of these kids would make the jump to organized hockey, but they may develop an interest in the game and they'll be parents one day who might pass that interest on to their kids. Maybe the Wild could throw in money and have players make appearances or have clinics at the outdoor rinks. You would think the NHL could use all the goodwill they could get right now. As far as the inner city high schools go it might help to move them to Class A but I don't think that'll happen as the MSHSL seems to base that on enrollment.

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:25 pm

Chris K makes some good points, if you can get the kids in an after school type program where the parents aren't needed to be a taxi service that would be a huge step. The key, I think, is to get the game to the kids. Minnepolis cut its middle school programs long ago, but that doesn't mean someone can't step in and take over.

Wildhockey55 · Post by **Wildhockey55** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:00 pm

What do you guys think of SW's new coach? Has he made any changes or anything?

Kodiak · Post by **Kodiak** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:27 pm

I think that family structure is the main reason for the problems we have getting kids in the city to play hockey these days. It's not that parents and guardians in the city are bad, but there are three things that you see in the city that you don't see very much of in the suburbs: 1) Kids living with just one parent (usually the mother... no offense hockey moms, but dad's are more apt to bring their kids to hockey), and most of the time in this situation, the other parent is not in the picture. 2) Families of enormous size: 15 or so people living in a house. Tough to give enough attention to a kid who wants to play hockey when there are 10 others, grandma and grandpa to worry about. 3) Kids living with grandma, an aunt, or a friend of the family. The adults in this situation take good care of these kids, but they don't usually do much more than provide food and shelter... in other words, they feed the mouth, but don't raise the children (NOT EVERYBODY! BUT MOST!) A great amount of time, practice, and discipline is needed in order to play hockey (or baseball for that matter). It's usually more time, practice, and discipline than these kids have, or their parents/guardians want to provide. It's hard enough to get these kids to come to school every day when they get older, let alone get them to hockey every day, and getting them to train during the off season. This also trancends all ethnic lines... white kids in the city are the same way as the black and Asian kids. Enough...

hattrick91 · Post by **hattrick91** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:07 pm

Are you kidding me! Mpls has the highest percentage of adults with college degrees of almost any city in the United States. The reason hockey players do not go to City high schools is that they are seeking schools with well established hockey programs, excellent coaching, and players of similiar abilities and compassion for their sport and also competitive hockey conferences. Mpls hockey parents are informed consumers of education as well as competitive sports. If the commitment isn't there for hockey in the Mpls schools, Mpls parents are well aware of their options for open enrollment and more than willing to exercise those options. I think you need to think twice about your stereotype of Mpls hockey parents- they are savvy consumers of education as well as sports.

topshelf11 · Post by **topshelf11** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:38 am

Another reason why hockey is not as popular as basketball or football is because hockey is not a sport you can just go out and play. You need skates, stick, puck ane ice at the minimum. Football all you need is the ball. Plus, the city outdoor rinks are open at most three months of the year. You can play football all year around. My point is hockey isn't sport where you can just go to the park and pick up easily.

hockeydad · Post by **hockeydad** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:11 pm

I'm going to disagree with hattrick in that it's all about hockey families seeking private schools. It's more than hockey. All across Minneapolis, enrollment is plummeting. More and more kids are going to charter schools, private schools or open enrolling out of the city. That's one reason why Mpls Schools have been so controversial. Then they bring in a supertintendent to shake things up and she shakes the tree too hard for those who have vested interests in the status quo and they go on a which hunt. I'm sure there are some good things going on in Minneapolis schools, but you rarely hear about them because of all the egg throwing. Minneapolis city Hockey may never recover to its former glory, but hopefully it can stablize so it is respectable. But before that can happen, the city's schools have to stabilize, so kids and parents aren't looking elsewhere.

hattrick91 · Post by **hattrick91** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:34 pm

Well, I think hockeydad is onto something with his remarks on Mpls City schools. I agree that there has been nothing but poor publicity with Mpls schools over the last few years- much more so than even with the St. Paul schools- budget cuts, school closings, school board turnover, controversy over the new Superintendent, larger class sizes, it goes on and on ad infinitum. The declining enrollment apparently is due to what hockeydad says: charter schools, open enrollment and private school. Since charter schools do not have hockey programs I have to surmise that the biggest enrollment declines are to private schools and open enrollment. Once the public leaves the City schools it is hard for families to come back- loss of loyalty is a real problem. Seems like the City schools have put much more focus on football and basketball so there is no surprise that the City hockey teams are in such bad shape and the first to crumble. Per the attached article it sounds like the problem has been there for quite some time and has just gotten so bad that consolidation to fewer teams is now a reality.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:58 am

But gentlemen, these schools are a long way from closing down. There are 300+ kids per class in the smaller Mpls schools and 400+ in the larger ones. South has close to 1400 kids grades 10 -12. 300-400 kids per class and no hockey team? That is just plain and simple because of the makeup of the families......they dont care about hockey. Which is fine. It isnt because everybody is leaving.

goofygirlinva · Post by **goofygirlinva** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:11 pm

I've done a chunk of research on the topic of declining enrollments in urban public school districts, and I would agree with packerboy in that probably the biggest reason enrollment is declining in the Minneapolis Public Schools (in general, not just in sports) is because of the emergence of so many different school choice options, particularly with charter schools. Families are still enrolling their children in private schools and taking advantage of open enrollment, but believe it or not, those numbers have remained relatively stable over the last few years. What has really taken off is the increase in charter schools – both the number of charter schools and the # of families enrolling their children in these schools. Remember, charter schools are public schools and they are not just for troubled students anymore (which they often were when charter school movement was just getting established). Instead, there are more and more charter schools out there these days that provide a real and competitive alternative to what traditional public schools have to offer families. And charter schools are an increasingly accepted part of the Minnesota school fabric so that we now have a culture where if parents are not satisfied with the education their child is getting, they will not hesitate to pull them out of the traditional public school and enroll them in a different school, charter or otherwise. Heck, in some circles it is practically EXPECTED that you choose a charter school over a neighborhood school. One of the unique factors about the school choice option in MN is before open enrollment and the emergence of charter schools, those families most likely to pull their kids from the traditional urban public school were those in the upper income strata. That meant you often saw the wealthier families either move to the suburbs or enroll their child in a private school. And even in the early stages of open enrollment and charter schools you saw a distinct movement out of the traditional urban public schools and into choice schools that went along some very specific socioeconomic lines. But as I said before, now that charter schools and other school options are looked upon as offering families very competitive and viable options across levels of household income, you are seeing what was traditionally looked upon as the core of the public schools – educated middle-upper income families – leave the public schools for other alternatives in increasing numbers. Hence, the declining enrollment patterns over the last few years in Mpls and St. Paul Public schools. What is interesting about families who enroll their children in charter schools is that they will choose a charter school for academic or other (non-athletic) reasons. But they won't choose a charter school for athletics because charter schools are usually so small that they typically don't have much to offer families in that regard. What that means for sports - and for hockey in particular - is that if a MPS family has a child who has shown some promising athletic talent in a sport that isn't popular in the urban schools (i.e., hockey) AND they want them to get both a top notch education as well as have a higher profile high school athletic "career," then depending on the sport, they often end up pulling the child from the traditional public school and either open enrolling their student in another district or sending them to private school. The decision to move usually starts with academics but if athletics are part of the equation, the school that is chosen is often chosen with athletics in mind. When you add the above trend into the changing demographics within the MPS & St. Paul Public School districts, along with the usual birth rate trends, it is no wonder we are seeing a distinct dropoff in participation in traditional Minnesota winter sports. The district has become less and less middle to upper class and white over the last few years and more and more lower to middle income and full of people of color, including the huge immigrant population that has found its way to MN. The whole culture of the Twin Cities urban public school has undergone a transformation in recent years, and athletics is simply following the trend. And Packerboy, urban school districts will never completely close down, simply because of a matter of public policy. BUT they are definitely changing, and I would suggest that the Mpls & St. Paul public schools of today are going to be very different in 5, even 10 years from now, simply because of all the options families now have. Competition forces school districts to respond and make adjustments. Both districts have definitely responded and I would argue that they are markedly different from how they were back when I was in HS (I graduated from South way back when, LOL!), and even 5 or 10 years ago. Athletics is just one of the areas where changes have been made, but it is perhaps one where the change is most publicly and easily manifested and noticed by the general public... Sorry to ramble, this is something I find very fascinating, so I tend to go on and on (and on and on, LOL!) on this topic... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p"> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... irlinva</A> at: 10/4/05 4:16 pm

topshelf11 · Post by **topshelf11** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:38 pm

good info

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