A vs. AA

JD0004 · Post by **JD0004** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:33 pm

I think this is a great board because people are allowed to share their opinions. It is frusturating at times to see some of the nonsense people post. In particularly, about Greg Trebil. It is very easy to look at those teams and just assume that Trebil recruits. Sorry folks, it's just not the case. A few years back the high school leage hired an independant party to investigate Trebil. Four months and $12,000 later...they found nothing. Does that not clear the man? If not...what will? People want to play for Trebil. Look at the success he had with the Jaguar teams of the early 90's. Anyone that was close to that program knows that Trebil was the guy responsible for that. Along with John Bianchi. If you want a kid to get to the next level, who better to have him play for? He knows how to develope talent. Yes, Holy Angels has great talent, but Trebil knows how to use that talent to win championships. Somebody, anybody....please try to tell me that Moorhead didn't have more talent than H.A. last year....and who won the title? Also, a little known side note. When Trebil started coaching at AHA he was begged to do so by a group of Jefferson players, because they didn't want to play for Saterdalen. Trebil didn't recruit from Jefferson; Saterdalen did his recruiting for him, because the Jefferson players didn't respect Saterdalen. And for those of you who are going to say, "he has others recruit for him." A side note for you...I've heard from a good source that he goes over the High School League recruiting rules with the parents at the beginning of the year and the end of the year....instructing them not to violate any of the rules. What else can the man do?

East Hockey Puck · Post by **East Hockey Puck** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:50 pm

Does anyone really think that Trebil would be crazy enough to be recruiting. Trebil proved in the State championship what kind of a coach he is again! He doesnt recruit his winning program recruits itself. I think that if Trebil published a list of players, and or parents that have contacted him about possibly sending their son to AHA it would surpise many by not only who is on the list but also how many. Give Trebil credit for being one of the best coaches around and give him credit for coaching high school hockey where more quality is desperately needed.

Kodiak · Post by **Kodiak** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:57 pm

I think that the basic rule is that once a family shows interest in the school by contacting the admissions department (or whatever it may be called in high schools) the coach, AD, players, and anybody associated with the school can contact the kid and the family about coming to school there. I would venture to guess that Holy Angels has plenty of inquiries without Trebil or any one of his coaches, players, or parents going out into various communities to get student athletes. Kids want to play for Holy Angels and Trebil because they know that the chances of playing on a huge stage at the end of the season is a distinct possibility. Trebil doesn't need to recruit. In response to Packerboy' assertion that the schooling is no different, I beg to differ. Like you said, there is a religious aspect to the education, but another difference is teacher/student ratio. Classes at Holy Angels consist of about 14 students per 1 teacher. I know for a fact that this ratio is growing immensely in area public schools, where class sizes are reaching 30 to 40 students in a room with one teacher. The odds of getting a better education at a private or parochial school are pretty good, not because the school or teachers are any better, but because that private tuition leads to more individual attention both inside and outside of the classroom.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:48 pm

Kodiak, I am for sure no expert on educatuion. All I am saying is that I personnally know and have followed the progress of many kids who are children of friends ,neighbors, relatives and co workers who attend public schools and do extremely well. I believe there is a much stronger correlation between what happens at home and acedemic success than what school you go to. Sorry, but I dont buy into the student /teacher ratio stuff as a sole criteria for learning. Especially at the high school level. There are way too many other factors.

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:03 pm

Packerboy, Let me get this straight. If someone goes to a $15,00 to $20,000 private school it's for academic reasons and therefore ok - but if they go to a $8,000 to $10,000 a year Catholic school it's not ok? You say you're not sold on class size, however why do you think that people pay that much money? Class size and the size of the school are huge factors in a parents decision. Many people simply do not want to send their children to a large suburban school. The home connection is critical, as you state. After all, who would shell out that kind of money and then not care what happens at school? Of course, people choose their homes based on the school district as well - therefore they have some financial investment as well. With that said, I'm largely in your corner. There are a lot of great public schools and the kids can realize their academic potential without their parents shelling out college tuition four years too soon! Bottom line. I'm a free market guy. If the public school no longer has the confidence of its parents then that public school no longer has the "right" to educate those kids. What the "open enrollment" public powers prove is that if you have the coach and the product - the kids will not only stay in your school district- the school district will attract kids as well.

Kodiak · Post by **Kodiak** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:20 pm

Packerboy, you're right... there are many factors that effect quality of education. Some kids fit better in smaller private/parochial schools, others fit better in big public schools. It's an individual choice. You can get a great education at both public and private, and I didn't mean to say that only private schools offer good educations, just that the chances of getting "lost" at a large public school are greater than at a smaller private/parochial school. All I'm saying is that you can't fault a kid and his/her family for deciding to go to a school like Holy Angels, whether they're a great hockey player or not.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:36 pm

I didnt say anything was OK or not OK. All I meant was that Catholic schools are way more diverse academically than the higher priced private schools and academics are not as strong a force in people attending a Catholic high school as say a Breck. If you want to believe that class size is really important, go ahead. People who pay to send their kids to a Catholic school have a lot of reasons for doing so. I think that spiritual development of young people is important. I think that discipline is important. Thats why I write the checks. I dont really care if there are 20 or 30 kids in the class. If there is discipline and a reinforced motivation to learn, class size isnt that big of a deal.

NPGandyDancer · Post by **NPGandyDancer** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:47 pm

breck and blake are clearly two of the strongest academic college...ivy...prep schools in the metro area, hands down. the hockey players attending those schools are smart...or they would wash out, period. benilde and aha are a step down...more comparable to a good public school such as hopkins-minnetonka or edina. class ratios are a moot point in most situations...the smart kids (public or private) take the college prep courses and would excel either with a class size of 10 or 100. watching aha win the title was fun...they made a good run. my sentiments for this year, however, have gone to hoping for a public school win it all with the skaters who have hung together through the years from squirts to high school. it's more of a challenge for a (public) high school coach than for a coach like trebil or chapman who have the talent fall into their laps...similiar to a "turn-key" squad. open the box and go. conversley, those skaters who have played together through the years should be ready to take on anybody, anytime. evidence that minnesota high school hockey is tops in the nation.

Zamman · Post by **Zamman** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:58 pm

NPG you seem to be a supporter of AHA at times, but I have seen the team before the season and then during then after and someone pulls this "talent" together and I can tell you it is not the parents. Yes Trebil goes over the rules prior to the season and after the season. I have seen that first hand the last two years. He cannot control what someone says to someone else when he is not around. Yes 1 player from Bloomington last year. I also know of other players from Bloomington prior to Trebil who visited and chose not to attend the school for some reason. They turned out to be pretty good players. Sorry though, AHA had a pretty good team prior to Trebil but they could not get past the bigger lake schools. They were in the tier two final for their section twice and lost both times. ________________________________ 2005 GIRLS STATE CHAMPS! 2002 & 2005 BOYS STATE CHAMPS!! GO STARS!!

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:24 pm

"class ratios are a moot point in most situations...the smart kids (public or private) take the college prep courses and would excel either with a class size of 10 or 100." So if the smart kids do well no matter where they go, then why spend $20,000? Where class rations are not a moot point are for the middle kid - and that's where most kids reside academically. (Packerboy is right on about discipline. If the class s calm and well conducted then class size goes to the wayside. I imagine that a class of 20 kids can just easily get out of hand as a class of 35!) Can Breck,SPA, and Blake claim to "produce" the very best students when they take only the best students to begin with? If they took average kids, and then produced Ivy leaguers then maybe the tuition is well worth it. So, to extend the analogy, if the very best players flock to private schools for hockey, then can those coaches truly take the credit for their junior or college potential? Would not those kids have achieved that level anyway? What a private school coach can take credit for is making a team out of 20 kids who all think they should be on the power play! But that's the challeng of any coach - to make a team out of the whatever parts one is given.

Kodiak · Post by **Kodiak** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:47 pm

Typically, smaller classes lead to a more challenging, and active learning environment for a student. The best students MAY not reach their full potential when going to classes where the teacher has to worry about 30 or 40 kids. Cut that number in half and a good teacher will be able to get much more out of a student. Most teachers do not have the skills to get 30 kids to actively learn in a class, so they revert to lecture, which is not effective for MOST (90%?) students. Sure smart kids get the A's, but are they really challenged? At a Breck, Blake, SPA, these kids WILL be challenged, and they will recieve greater challenges at a Holy Angels, Benilde, Hill Murray, Totino Grace, St. Bernards, St. Agnes, Concordia, or Cretin. Again, our public school system is VERY good, and there's no shame in graduating from a public school, but if both academic and athletic success in college is the goal, these private and religious schools are a better option.

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:43 pm

Sorry Kodiak. If you don't think they lecture - A LOT - at private schools - then you're wrong. In terms of athletic/academic success, I'd say the list is very long indeed for kids who've come out of our public school system. There are some crappy public schools but there are some private schools that aren't worth the money, either. Truth is, that Minnesota has a pretty darn good school system - private and public (despite many faults). For that, we all should be grateful. I would resubmit that Blake Wheeler (for example) would be in the same place athletically/academically if he'd stayed at Wayzata. After all, if the superstars of Minnesota hockey are going to bail out in their junior or senior year - then what's the point of an expensive private school education? Trust me, I AM NOT a private school basher. However, I do believe that many public schools take an unfair hit in the "pr" department. By the way, didn't this post begin with "A" and "AA"?

Kodiak · Post by **Kodiak** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:12 pm

I never said they don't lecture in private schools, I said that many teachers with 30+ kids in their class are forced to resort to this kind of teaching EVERY DAY! What I AM saying is that the private schools that I listed prepare kids for college better than most public schools, even here in Minnesota where the public school system is great! You're right... not all private schools are better, but I'd say that most are, and a big reason for this is class size. Another is freedom within the curriculum. School board members, many of which have no experience as educators, dictate what curriculum to teach in large school districts, while most private schools have curricula developed by experienced teachers and administration. What does this have to do with A and AA? Not much, except that kids will leave big schools to go to the Brecks and Blakes and Minnehaha's of the world more so that they can go to a top school rather than going to state. So, yeah, A vs AA... let's go back to a one class system with a 16 team state tourney! Then there'll be no more threads like this!

NPGandyDancer · Post by **NPGandyDancer** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:55 am

bart82. your example of blake wheeler is somewhat similiar to that of the peter mueller campaign . he was leap-frogging around schools, and if memory serves correctly, attended breck one year, playing for wally. what's the point of dropping all that cabbage for one year at breck? he's not there to study voltaire. you would think that he would be cherry-picked to play with (1 season) a team that had the potential to take state if that's how he wanted to exit at the high school level. zamman, yes, i watched aha last year and relished in their success and no, i didn't bash trebil. classy guy/coach. but, after watching a rerun of the mighty ducks movie i want a rag-tag team to take it all this season. sweet!

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:23 am

Kodiak. Agreed! But the one class tourney thread has been beaten senseless as well! No doubt that nobody can - nor should - lecture every day. But I'll say as a 20 year teaching veteran I'll tell you that I'd prefer that my kids be taught by someone who lectures everyday rather than someone who relies on group work and mindless worksheets. We have more to fear from that sort of teacher then one who lectures. After all, if you are going to lecture for 30 or 45 minutes you have to have something to say. But that pressuposes that the teacher is smarter than the class! So, we may have a philsophical difference there. On another note - if we are preparing kids for college then they better get ready to hear a lecture. You make a great point on the curriculum. One problem, however, is that private schools draw their teachers from the same teacher colleges that public school do. So, some of the same claptrap is seeping into the private schools as well. Perhaps we should start a new thread, but I'm enjoying the thoughtful contributions too much. I'd still like to explore how this relates to hockey because I see a very real connection here. Parents are looking for what is best for their kids and if they don't believe that the public school offers that then they'll vote with their feet and dollars. I have a degree of admiraton for those public school programs that attract kids. Rather than bash them with the open enrollment and recruiting charges - maybe we should learn from them? Just a thought. p.s. NP - I'm still laughing about your Voltaire reference!

Knowlze · Post by **Knowlze** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:57 pm

Great drift away from the topic. Excellant posts regarding education. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I have a degree of admiraton for those public school programs that attract kids. Rather than bash them with the open enrollment and recruiting charges - maybe we should learn from them? Just a thought.<hr></blockquote> That's the spirit Bart. I agree. Too often, we are threatened that kids may choose to leave for a better opportunity. Rather than focussing on a way to make them stay, a better alternative should be for the schools to determine why they are leaving and improve, so others will not consider the option. Furthermore, with enough improvement they may begin to attract others. The result is that all schools have the incentive to improve, a win-win. Kodiak. I agree, one class to determine a champion. Multiple classes is about participation, rather than determining a champion. One class solves the A vs AA problem, and gets the MSHSL one step closer to only planning a tournament, which is what they do best.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:41 am

Bart asks a good question. If the good students do well no matter where they go, why spend the money? A lot of us who pay to send our kids to Catholic schools arent exactly rich. I think the answer is that there is more to it than academics. Spiritual development and discipline are stressed. These things,although not fashionable, can come in handy in todays world. I admit to being thick headed when it comes to class size. But the reason is because I went to school in the late 50s and thru the 60s. We had competent teachers, concerned parents who backed the teachers, even when they didnt agree with them.....we had discipline. I also was taught by nuns. You twitched the wrong way and you were a dead man. We had 40 kids in some of our classes. We learned. We always did well on the standard testing stuff. Whats changed?

NPGandyDancer · Post by **NPGandyDancer** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:49 am

knowlze. your second paragraph speaks volumns on this dilemna. for most public schools the deck is stacked against them. just maintaining status quo is challenging enough. with the exit of skip will that open up new thinking with the mshsl insofar as reinventing the wheel...a one class tourney? after watching totino-grace at parade walk through the sections they would clearly prevail against many of the "big" aa schools in the metro and out-state. i think it's time for a new post dissecting the one v two class tourney.

Kodiak · Post by **Kodiak** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:14 am

A big part of the change has been parental/family/guardian involvement in the public schools. Teachers and administrators are beginning to make efforts to get parents more involved, but, especially with the recent influx of immigrants, parents (not everybody! SOME) have been more apt to want teachers and administrators to take care of everything related with school. Parents who involve themselves in the academic lives of their children have kids who do better in school. This does not mean that parents who don't show an interest in education are bad people, it just doesn't really fit with our educational system. We need parents and guardians to check and see if the kids have done their homework, and, more importantly, are going to class. Kids move in and out of school so fast that public schools are tough places to work/learn right now. It's getting better, and it WILL continue to get better, but, it's tough. Teachers have also had to adjust to integrated classrooms, where "special ed" kids are mainstreamed into the regular classroom. I think this is great for the kids, but the workload that teachers encounter have increased tenfold with all of the paperwork that needs to be done. It's also getting better, but, again, tough. The parents/guardians that send their kids to private school seem to be more likely to take an active role in their kids education, because, if nothing else, they're spending 2, 5, 10, 15, 20 grand on school! For most parents that's a REALLY BIG deal. If I end up dropping that much cash for my kids to go to school you can bet that they'll work hard. Even if I don't, they'll work hard, but especially if I'm dropping the cash. A 16 team tournament would still allow for the "participation"... maybe even make it a week-long double elimination deal.

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:00 pm

Packerboy, your points are well taken. One of the sad facts about Catholic education is that the price tag is too high. Many, many people make great sacrifices to send their kids to private schools. Some are just looking for a safe environment. The only caution I have regarding private schools - ALL private schools - is that they are subject to some of the same nonsense that has hurt much of our public schools. For example, curriculum specialists, diversity coordinators, etc. are now invading the private schools. Private school teachers get their Masters degrees from "professional educationalists". I'm tipping my "political hand" on where I stand on this - but I just see this as hurting private schools. The disease only spreads. In a country this big how could you possibly create a school that fits everyone's needs? It can't be done. That's why choice,charter schools, private options, and competition are so badly needed. There is no such thing as a one size fits all school. Many kids do very well in public schools, whereas others need a smaller environment. It's up to the parents to make that determination. Kids belong to parents not to the state. In terms of hockey, well it used to be that some people would send their son to a private school so he had a better chance to play; and an EARLIER chance to play. The smaller classroom environment and the opportunities that it presented extended to the playing fields. That may be changing as well. I remember hearing that back in the 70s and 80s that Hill Murray would have as many as 80 kids trying out for the hockey team. I don't know if this is factual. I've heard Holy Angels is approaching similar numbers. (The Stars posters could educate me on whether this is accurate.) At some point, there has to be a saturation point. Young players actually could me MISSING OUT on opportunities by going to a private school. Not the top end player - like the top end students - they rarely miss out! Edited by: <A HREF=http://p074.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... >Bart82</A> at: 8/18/05 1:02 pm

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:30 pm

Bart, although I am one of the many posters who is a 'defender' of the private schools on this board, I have made many of the same points you make in many a discussion. There are a lot of issues. I could be driving a lot nicer car and working a little less and having a few more nice things , if I didnt have to pay the tuition. Its true of a lot of people. And for what? We have a perfecly fine public school in our area. Our neighbors send their kids there and they do fine. They are great kids. Your point about participation is well taken. How many good baseball and football players at Cretin never get much of a shot because of the talent ahead of them? They absolutely "miss out" But yet they turn away almost as many as they accept every year. And people dont remember... it is cyclical. All these schools were hurting for students in the 70s and 80s. A few closed down(Brady, OLP) and the rest consolidated the boys with the girls (Cretin with Derham Hall, Hill with Murray, Benilde with St Margarets etc.) Now, they dont have nearly enough desks. It hasnt always been this way and probably wont always be.

Zamman · Post by **Zamman** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:32 pm

I have to disagree with the fact that parents of public school kids do not get involved with the school. I am always involved with my kids programs. I spent 10 days of my vacation time and over $4500 to accompany my daughters high school trip to Ireland this summer. I see first hand the parents and families that attend the hockey games at the arena. From both the home and away schools. I do not see that as much with the AHA parents and families, and mostly that is because they all live and work farther away. I am sure that they would attend if they were closer, and I know they would love to be there. Parents of kids that do not participate are less than more, IMO. ________________________________ 2005 GIRLS STATE CHAMPS! 2002 & 2005 BOYS STATE CHAMPS!! GO STARS!!

JLS 81 · Post by **JLS 81** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:34 am

packerboy you are a very articulate defender of the private institutions. I would very much agree with you and think that you east side boys have your heads screwed on straight. My beef is with a few that bend the rules to put their hockey clubs over the top...if your enrollment limit is set than by God it is set. Blue chip hockey stud or best flute player on the planet should not factor in a decision to bend the rules "just @#%$ once". That is weak mindedness plain and simple. Question I have for those who let it slide is this. Who calls the shots the Administrator or the hockey coach?

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:22 am

JLS 81, I dont think there is an easy answer to your question and its going to depend on the school. As I mentioned, CDH turns away a lot of good kids every year. And every year you hear about how stud boy football player got in and your flute player didnt and isnt that just awful and blah blah blah. Some people fail to realise that excellence in athletics is still consudered a good quality to have. We too often sneer at the "jock" kid and say "he got in cuz he is a stud player" Well, what the hell is wrong with that? Assuming he has a good behavior record and decent grades. For those of you who havent done the college admissions thing yet, you will find that a lot of schools want to know if you played a sport in high school. In fact, go to some college admissions web sites and they flat out tell you that it will help if you were involved in a team activity while in high school. If you go into a job interview and you tell the person interviewing you how you played team sports ...I guarantee you it isnt going to hurt. I would take a kid who learned how to work within a team setting over someone who sat up in their room and played the flute. Anyway, I am not naive enough to think that the admissions process is not flawed at times when it comes to admitting athletes over others who are just as deserving. But, I think people pull the trigger and judge things a little too quick. They consider athletic excellence and involvement as something insignificant to admissions. They are a lot of very smart people involved in the selection process who disagree.

toepull · Post by **toepull** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:41 am

Packerboy - your comment "If you go into a job interview and you tell the person interviewing you how you played team sports ...I guarantee you it isnt going to hurt. I would take a kid who learned how to work within a team setting over someone who sat up in their room and played the flute." is a little ignorant. Music and athletics have very similar attributes with regard to teamwork, discipline etc..... Those that have excelled at music have put in more hours refining their skill than most athletes.

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