Girls HS Hockey in Major Decline

[thegreatone99]

Don't hold your breath great one. Privates will clean up again in both A and AA. That article in Mpls about Richfield spells it all out. The girls game is dying and the state is watching it happen. More coops means more team dying. Evenetually it will be the wealthy suburbs and the privates. Force the Blakes, Brecks, Uniteds Benildes to move up. They can petition to move down if their recruiter took a leave of absence.

Hill-Murray and Benilde deserve kudos for already moving up. All other private schools should do the same.

While Benilde was in the championship 2 years ago, they have fallen mightily. HM will be a top 10 team next year, but no where near this year. This is likely the high point for them for the next number of years (going undefeated is the high point for anyone). So my guess is public schools will take back the title in 2017. Blake and Breck are a tough case. I'm not sure why they enjoy dominating at A (much like STA in boys did for so long). Blake could easily win the AA title this year (that with an undefeated AA team out there). If you are going to make the argument to leave private schools in with the public ones (which I think we should), it's best the private schools play the top level they can without getting hurt.

AMEN

[Jeffy95]

The problem with HS and Youth Girls Hockey is apathy around the state.

Co-ops only make sense when a community does not have the economic capacity, nor the passion for hockey to support a strong boys program.

It's really that simple. If you have a strong boys program and a weak girls program, you are not trying.

Is it possible that maybe there just aren't as many girls as boys that want to play hockey? Have the differences between Boy's and Girl's interests just magically vanished because Girls Hockey popped onto the scene? We are a Hockey family and my daughter has no interest in playing. She loves Dance and Gymnastics though.

[itsfoilcoach]

of the 19 games played yesterday 78% or 15/19 games were won by 3+ goals

only one game .05% 1/19 was a one goal game.

I guess I am wrong, there is tremendous balance within the state and no "haves and have nots" don't change anything, these numbers show tremendous growth and progress

I apologize for all the misrepresentation of facts

Just throwing this out there. SPU and others had first round buys. SPU plays Sibley. Too close to call on this one. I assume when the tops seeds start playing we will see an increase in goal deferential as well.

[greybeard58]

High School Girls Report at Fall Minnesota Hockey Meeting
(Prior to the Tartan/North St. Paul co-op formation which reduced the number of varsity teams to 116)

“The number of high school teams and players continues to decrease. For this coming season, the MSHSL will have a decrease in three high school girl’s hockey programs. Coon Rapids is forming a co-op with Spring Lake Park, St Louis Park is now a co-op with Hopkins HS, and Lake of the Woods will not field a team this year. The total number of high school programs this season will be 117, down from a high of 127 teams. This is still an upside down pyramid as the number of girl’s U14 teams for the 2014-15 season was approximately 56 teams. This quotient of youth to high school teams is not a healthy scenario for the future. The MSHSL data points out that girls hockey had the second largest declines in numbers of participants over the past few years. (For the 2014-15 season there were 245 participating schools that represented 120 varsity programs. There were 3784 total participants last season. That is a decline of almost 10% from the 2007-08 season which had 4156 participants.) On the plus side, Minnesota still leads the nation in the number of teams and players at the high school level. The topic of how to grow the girl’s game will be a roundtable discussion item at the fall clinic.”

http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/docu ... -09-20.pdf

Reports from discussion at MH meeting and MGHCA fall clinic indicated that the goal was to try to keep the number of teams over 100. The MGHCA did not publish the number of JV teams, indicating only that 10 or more had dropped in the past few years.

[zooomx]

The problem with HS and Youth Girls Hockey is apathy around the state.

Co-ops only make sense when a community does not have the economic capacity, nor the passion for hockey to support a strong boys program.

It's really that simple. If you have a strong boys program and a weak girls program, you are not trying.

Is it possible that maybe there just aren't as many girls as boys that want to play hockey? Have the differences between Boy's and Girl's interests just magically vanished because Girls Hockey popped onto the scene? We are a Hockey family and my daughter has no interest in playing. She loves Dance and Gymnastics though.

That's why I am saying an association that supports 3-4 boys teams should be able to support 2 girls teams at any level. Naturally, there may be the case that not as many girls are interested in hockey than boys. But don't tell me that 2 communities fielding 3-5 boys teams at each level have to co-op at the girls level to survive. That's just lazy and not trying. Grow the game.

Also, in terms of the upside down pyramid from grey beard's notes. I would be interested in seeing how many U12 teams there are. A lot of skaters move straight from U12 to varsity in communities. It's all a matter of recruitment.

Lastly, I do not apologize for the decisions the privates make, and my kids will never skate private. I am just saying it's out of our control, so grow your program and try to beat dem' privates!

[itsfoilcoach]

[quote="pepperpot"]I love the nahnahnah from nevertoomuchbarf. It shows how classless some of these private school parents are. Masala, numbers are dropping. Why argue? Why do you think there are more coops every year? Because there are more girls coming up at the highschool level? No because numbers are dropping and there aren't enough girls to field a team. When my boys played Duluth had two girls teams. Coops were for small schools not schools like Coon Rapids or Duluth. Having powerhouse programs like the blakes and brecks of the world do nothing to counter the idea that hockey is too expensive to play. I think anyone who defends them not moving up is an idiot. Putting a team like St Paul united in a section with little or no competition is even more idiotic. Recruiting, unlimited budgets, relationships with elite summer programs, yeah the haves have it this time. Funny thing is eventually it won't mean anything because the teams that made the state of hockey great won't have a horse in the race anymore. Then they can feel good knowing they've stepped on the little gals and made it a one horse race.[/quot

Nicely said!

[itsfoilcoach]

The problem with HS and Youth Girls Hockey is apathy around the state.

Co-ops only make sense when a community does not have the economic capacity, nor the passion for hockey to support a strong boys program.

It's really that simple. If you have a strong boys program and a weak girls program, you are not trying.

Is it possible that maybe there just aren't as many girls as boys that want to play hockey? Have the differences between Boy's and Girl's interests just magically vanished because Girls Hockey popped onto the scene? We are a Hockey family and my daughter has no interest in playing. She loves Dance and Gymnastics though.

That's why I am saying an association that supports 3-4 boys teams should be able to support 2 girls teams at any level. Naturally, there may be the case that not as many girls are interested in hockey than boys. But don't tell me that 2 communities fielding 3-5 boys teams at each level have to co-op at the girls level to survive. That's just lazy and not trying. Grow the game.

Also, in terms of the upside down pyramid from grey beard's notes. I would be interested in seeing how many U12 teams there are. A lot of skaters move straight from U12 to varsity in communities. It's all a matter of recruitment.

Lastly, I do not apologize for the decisions the privates make, and my kids will never skate private. I am just saying it's out of our control, so grow your program and try to beat dem' privates![/quote

In a word.... Naive

[zooomx]

Is it possible that maybe there just aren't as many girls as boys that want to play hockey? Have the differences between Boy's and Girl's interests just magically vanished because Girls Hockey popped onto the scene? We are a Hockey family and my daughter has no interest in playing. She loves Dance and Gymnastics though.

That's why I am saying an association that supports 3-4 boys teams should be able to support 2 girls teams at any level. Naturally, there may be the case that not as many girls are interested in hockey than boys. But don't tell me that 2 communities fielding 3-5 boys teams at each level have to co-op at the girls level to survive. That's just lazy and not trying. Grow the game.

Also, in terms of the upside down pyramid from grey beard's notes. I would be interested in seeing how many U12 teams there are. A lot of skaters move straight from U12 to varsity in communities. It's all a matter of recruitment.

Lastly, I do not apologize for the decisions the privates make, and my kids will never skate private. I am just saying it's out of our control, so grow your program and try to beat dem' privates![/quote

In a word.... Naive

If its naive to take responsibility for what I can control, and try to make the association I belong to better, and not sit for hours on a hockey forum whining about fairness... then yes... I guess I am naive.

Some of you have dozens of posts on this board, and have obviously done hours of research looking for numbers and articles to support your argument. Pour some of that energy and time into your program. Do I think Blake and Breck should move up to AA? Sure. Can't control that.

Still think the bigger problem is bigger associations letting their girls programs slide, and then moving into a co-op instead of rolling up their sleeves and building their girls program back up. I have to think that it is harder to recruit and retain younger girl skaters in a co-op situation.

[thegreatone99]

7 games last night

6/7 games 85% were won by 3+ more goals

1/7 games 15% were won by one goal

Lots of discussion how to move the girls game forward, it's the product and apathy. There are only a few elite teams out there both public and private and the majority of the top end programs continue to get stronger through recruitment or move-ins.

All of you have you been to one of these games lately? Usually consists of one or two players rushing end to end, very few passes, playing every other shift including PP and PK and rarely coming off. You might as well as call it the "Suzie Show" After awhile it gets tired watching Suzie all over the ice, every other shift.

Only gets worse in Sections when it is all hands on deck, or should I say, for half the team it's all hands on deck. This isn't college or the NHL were winning is mandatory.

"Improve the product and they will come"

[jg2112]

7 games last night

6/7 games 85% were won by 3+ more goals

1/7 games 15% were won by one goal

Lots of discussion how to move the girls game forward, it's the product and apathy. There are only a few elite teams out there both public and private and the majority of the top end programs continue to get stronger through recruitment or move-ins.

All of you have you been to one of these games lately? Usually consists of one or two players rushing end to end, very few passes, playing every other shift including PP and PK and rarely coming off. You might as well as call it the "Suzie Show" After awhile it gets tired watching Suzie all over the ice, every other shift.

Only gets worse in Sections when it is all hands on deck, or should I say, for half the team it's all hands on deck. This isn't college or the NHL were winning is mandatory.

"Improve the product and they will come"

LOL. Wait a minute - in Sections winning IS mandatory or the season is over. Only the least competitive player in the world would not realize the importance of winning a Sectional game. Anyone playing high school sports realizes the best players will play.

No basketball team is going to rotate in the 11th and 12th players on the bench in a regional game in the name of "development." No football team is going to make sure the 3rd string lineman gets a few snaps when they are trying to move onto the next round. No. They want to win so the best players play.

Yesterday I watched Mounds View play Tartan/North. T/N led 1-0 until midway through the third. Brodt scored two goals, including the game-winner with :45 to go. The N/T goalie was marvelous and stopped over 50 shots. She didn't deserve that result but this is hockey.

Brodt played at least half the game, but what rational coach WOULDN'T play her every other shift? She's one of the top 5 players in the state, an electric skater with sublime skill and great conditioning. Had she not played as much, her team might not be preparing for WBL on Tuesday.

I get the arguments about competitive balance. Arguing about playing time in win or go home situations isn't rational.

[maristar]

7 games last night

6/7 games 85% were won by 3+ more goals

1/7 games 15% were won by one goal

Lots of discussion how to move the girls game forward, it's the product and apathy. There are only a few elite teams out there both public and private and the majority of the top end programs continue to get stronger through recruitment or move-ins.

All of you have you been to one of these games lately? Usually consists of one or two players rushing end to end, very few passes, playing every other shift including PP and PK and rarely coming off. You might as well as call it the "Suzie Show" After awhile it gets tired watching Suzie all over the ice, every other shift.

Only gets worse in Sections when it is all hands on deck, or should I say, for half the team it's all hands on deck. This isn't college or the NHL were winning is mandatory.

"Improve the product and they will come"

LOL. Wait a minute - in Sections winning IS mandatory or the season is over. Only the least competitive player in the world would not realize the importance of winning a Sectional game. Anyone playing high school sports realizes the best players will play.

No basketball team is going to rotate in the 11th and 12th players on the bench in a regional game in the name of "development." No football team is going to make sure the 3rd string lineman gets a few snaps when they are trying to move onto the next round. No. They want to win so the best players play.

Yesterday I watched Mounds View play Tartan/North. T/N led 1-0 until midway through the third. Brodt scored two goals, including the game-winner with :45 to go. The N/T goalie was marvelous and stopped over 50 shots. She didn't deserve that result but this is hockey.

Brodt played at least half the game, but what rational coach WOULDN'T play her every other shift? She's one of the top 5 players in the state, an electric skater with sublime skill and great conditioning. Had she not played as much, her team might not be preparing for WBL on Tuesday.

I get the arguments about competitive balance. Arguing about playing time in win or go home situations isn't rational.

jg2112 You are correct on all points.

[MNHockeyFan]

I get the arguments about competitive balance. Arguing about playing time in win or go home situations isn't rational.

I recall former Breck standout Milica McMillen, now a senior at Minnesota, never leaving the ice in a game a few years ago.

[jg2112]

I get the arguments about competitive balance. Arguing about playing time in win or go home situations isn't rational.

I recall former Breck standout Milica McMillen, now a senior at Minnesota, never leaving the ice in a game a few years ago.

Of course. I recall Anna Barlow playing at least half of games at State last year as well. I also recall Hannah Brandt double and triple shifting at the regional finals against Roseville in 2012.

And in the game when DeForrest stopped over 110 shots this week, one of her defenders played 90+ minutes in a row!!

[thegreatone99]

I get the arguments about competitive balance. Arguing about playing time in win or go home situations isn't rational.

I recall former Breck standout Milica McMillen, now a senior at Minnesota, never leaving the ice in a game a few years ago.

Of course. I recall Anna Barlow playing at least half of games at State last year as well. I also recall Hannah Brandt double and triple shifting at the regional finals against Roseville in 2012.

And in the game when DeForrest stopped over 110 shots this week, one of her defenders played 90+ minutes in a row!!

All good points, just saying it creates apathy for the game when it is the same player time and time again making rink long rushes only to shoot into a goalie or finally get stopped. Or the only one scoring the goals.

Might be a goalie dominated year this year for the girls. When you see the Hopkins score. Shots 39-9 Hopkins, but lose 2-0 (one open net) AV outshout by 60 shots and only loses in OT.

The fact there is no checking allows for this to happen. This type of play rarely happens in a boys game as the players would be immediately checked off the puck. D are much harder to contain in the girls game, but if I was a coach and the team was going to send a Brodt or some other forward like at B & B out there every other shift, simply take your best skating forward and tell her to shadow her the entire game and then see what happens. These long rushes would disappear.

[MNHockeyFan]

The fact there is no checking allows for this to happen. This type of play rarely happens in a boys game as the players would be immediately checked off the puck.

Sometimes they even forget to check in the NHL!

https://youtu.be/-9ru_R7Qjjo

[Bulldog3489]

I recall former Breck standout Milica McMillen, now a senior at Minnesota, never leaving the ice in a game a few years ago.

Of course. I recall Anna Barlow playing at least half of games at State last year as well. I also recall Hannah Brandt double and triple shifting at the regional finals against Roseville in 2012.

And in the game when DeForrest stopped over 110 shots this week, one of her defenders played 90+ minutes in a row!!

All good points, just saying it creates apathy for the game when it is the same player time and time again making rink long rushes only to shoot into a goalie or finally get stopped. Or the only one scoring the goals.

Might be a goalie dominated year this year for the girls. When you see the Hopkins score. Shots 39-9 Hopkins, but lose 2-0 (one open net) AV outshout by 60 shots and only loses in OT.

The fact there is no checking allows for this to happen. This type of play rarely happens in a boys game as the players would be immediately checked off the puck. D are much harder to contain in the girls game, but if I was a coach and the team was going to send a Brodt or some other forward like at B & B out there every other shift, simply take your best skating forward and tell her to shadow her the entire game and then see what happens. These long rushes would disappear.

Too funny. I'm sure a coach would never double shift in a boys high school games.

[wolfman]

Banham for rodents scores 60 today in bball. The coach should have sat her or told her to pass and not shoot anymore. That's the same as scoring 7 or 8 goals on the ice.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

Not sure which teams you are watching "great one"... The best metro teams are deep as hell with multiple scoring threats on at least two lines, with 3-4 defenders putting up nice assist numbers and also fast and strong enough to be scoring threats anywhere in the zone. Very few top 20 teams (if any) have a single player that if contained or "shadowed" out of the offense won't leave 2 lineys and a D who will capitalize on the room you are giving them. The teams with one stud player are already at the year end banquet.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

Not sure which teams you are watching "great one"... The best metro teams are deep as hell with multiple scoring threats on at least two lines, with 3-4 defenders putting up nice assist numbers and also fast and strong enough to be scoring threats anywhere in the zone. Very few top 20 teams (if any) have a single player that if contained or "shadowed" out of the offense won't leave 2 lineys and a D who will capitalize on the room you are giving them. The teams with one stud player are already at the year end banquet.

[thegreatone99]

Not sure which teams you are watching "great one"... The best metro teams are deep as hell with multiple scoring threats on at least two line.

I think you can look at your so called "deep teams" and see there is one or two players with all the goals and the rest are single digit points. And these two players always happen to be on the same line, easy to shut down if a coach implores the strategy.

Stats don't lie

[thegreatone99]

Blaine and Hill are probably the most balanced in terms of goals, look it up NTM

[MNHockeyFan]

I think you can look at your so called "deep teams" and see there is one or two players with all the goals and the rest are single digit points.

Not all teams:
Hill-Murray - 11 players in double digits
http://www.mngirlshockeyhub.com/stats/t ... ol=1470862

Maple Grove - 11 players in double digits
http://www.mngirlshockeyhub.com/stats/t ... ol=1470862

Eden Prairie - 9 players in double digits
http://www.mngirlshockeyhub.com/stats/t ... ol=1470862

Minnetonka - 9 players in double digits
http://www.mngirlshockeyhub.com/stats/t ... ol=1470862

Edina - 7 players in double digits
http://www.mngirlshockeyhub.com/stats/t ... ol=1470862

And I'm sure there are more "deep teams" out there - these are the first five that I looked up! Also, these are just the regular season stats, not including sections.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

Thanks MN. The top A teams tell a similar story

And I don't have to look it up "great" - I've actually been following the stats and attending games all season

[MN_Bowhunter]

And I'm sure there are more "deep teams" out there - these are the first five that I looked up! Also, these are just the regular season stats, not including sections.

It's a completely ridiculous argument. The same stats will bear out in any sport at any level. The best teams have more good players. The good teams have one or two.

It reminds me of a story. I grew up with a kid who was half American Indian. His Grandpa was the Chief and knew all of the history of his tribe and was very wise. One fall day we were watching geese flying over our heads and the old Chief said to me, "Bowhunter, have you ever noticed when the geese fly in a big V, one side is always longer than the other side. Do you know why that is?" I said no and waited patiently for his sage answer. He replied "because there's more geese on that side."

[massalsa]

Might be somewhat off topic but while browsing the MN Girls Youth forum's U15 thread I thought about the significant differences between Youth and HS hockey.

Where is the drop off most significant? At the V/JV levels? U15? U12?

Could the "Major Decline" be helped by expanding HS hockey into the U15 & U12 levels? The cost difference between association and HS hockey appears to be significant, at least from what I have experienced. Also the scheduled ice time is so nice at the HS level vs association.

Why is youth hockey SO much more expensive than HS? The costs are not even including the overnight tournaments which adds a lot of cost to "hockey".