Bantam AA team for Duluth Marshall?

[Froggy Richards]

Pretty sure I remember reading here about the s*** fit with association hockey up there when private Marshall wanted to start a Tier 1 program. At that time the argument was parity and there were tons of examples of Marshall kids getting left off top Duluth teams and not getting invited/accepted to local clinics and camps. Now I have no idea if any of that kind of discrimination or bias against Marshall students was true but Marshall's attorney proved enough of it that MN hockey overruled the vote against it by the locals. It seems like making the argument that the same rules and standards re: youth hockey are equal for both publics and privates in MN means they will get to do this?? Is girls 10/12/14u to follow? Would be interesting to see the meeting minutes from that Tier 1 situation. Were you around for that Froggy?

No, I really haven't followed the girls side of things much. It would not surprise me if Marshall kids were being discriminated against in some ways though. I realize that nobody likes Privates, but they're still kids and you hate to see any kid suffer for decisions that they have nothing to do with. If the kids got to decide where they went to school, most privates would probably not exist.

[Duluthguy]

I'm sure MN Hockey is probably their next step. I think it made sense to start with DAHA though, even though it was a risk. It almost worked. They actually approved it on the first vote until rescinding it two weeks later. With DAHA approval MN Hockey would have put it through I'm sure. Then it's done with little work and only the price of a lawyer sending a few letters.

Now they have a bigger challenge as they would have to present to MN Hockey after a formal vote against it by DAHA. But like you said, they can then sue MN Hockey and could eventually win. It's probably going to come down to how much of Daddy's money Mr. Krenzen is willing to spend.

What I really found interesting in the Marshall proposal is this:


I'm not sure exactly how to read this, but it sounds to me like he was trying to create some kind of leverage. As in, "You better approve this or I will blow the whistle on ineligible players in DAHA." This is the most comical thing I've ever seen as Mr. Stauber's kids play in Hermantown. They have more players from outside their Association boundaries playing there than any Association in the State. His partner in crime, Mr. Krenzen, had a kid on the Hermantown PeeWee AA team last year and he neither lived there or went to school there. You really gotta love these people.

Froggy: I think you have your Staubers mixed up. "B. Stauber" refers to Bill Stauber. He lives in Duluth and his kids have always been Piedmont/Denfeld players, with the oldest going to Marshall this past season. You're thinking of Bill's brother Pete--mentioned earlier in the thread. He lives in Hermantown where his kids have played at the youth levels and also transferred to Marshall this past season.

Yes, my mistake, thank you. I posted the meeting minutes from yesterday regarding Pete and didn't register the B before the name today.

I meant to add: mixing up the Stauber brothers is easy to do...aren't there like 85 of them?

OK, only 6. Still.....

[Froggy Richards]

Maybe the mercenary attitude is tempered a bit and the pride is restored in playing for your school by lacing the skates up and donning the school colors from the time you are 8 yrs old on.

The Pride for the kids is still there and always has been, that hasn't changed. No kid has ever chosen to go to a different program. What has changed is Youth Hockey has little to do with the kids anymore. It's all about the parents now.

[SCBlueLiner]

Maybe the mercenary attitude is tempered a bit and the pride is restored in playing for your school by lacing the skates up and donning the school colors from the time you are 8 yrs old on.

The Pride for the kids is still there and always has been, that hasn't changed. No kid has ever chosen to go to a different program. What has changed is Youth Hockey has little to do with the kids anymore. It's all about the parents now.

So kids don't move from associations or transfer schools? Guess there is no need for a transfer policy then, might as wells trike it from the books.

It happens all the time, you know that. And it's not all on the parents, the kids are in on it too.

[observer]

What a bunch of selfish babies. There is no connection between youth hockey and HS. DAHA should be the only youth association in Duluth. Develop all kids without consideration of where players will attend HS. Often you don't know anyways. More kids skating at the right level and development is better. Grow up and get this fixed. One single youth association.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

What a bunch of selfish babies. There is no connection between youth hockey and HS. DAHA should be the only youth association in Duluth. Develop all kids without consideration of where players will attend HS. Often you don't know anyways. More kids skating at the right level and development is better. Grow up and get this fixed. One single youth association.

I think I agree.
But as long as there are already 2 (East, Denfeld) no one can really make the argument there can't be 3, right?

[Froggy Richards]

Maybe the mercenary attitude is tempered a bit and the pride is restored in playing for your school by lacing the skates up and donning the school colors from the time you are 8 yrs old on.

The Pride for the kids is still there and always has been, that hasn't changed. No kid has ever chosen to go to a different program. What has changed is Youth Hockey has little to do with the kids anymore. It's all about the parents now.

So kids don't move from associations or transfer schools? Guess there is no need for a transfer policy then, might as wells trike it from the books.

It happens all the time, you know that. And it's not all on the parents, the kids are in on it too.

You mis-read what I wrote. Of course they are moving to other Associations. I've witnessed the Exodus of top players to Hermantown over the last few years so I know as well as anyone. What I said was it isn't the kids who choose to move. The kids want to stay and play with their friends. That's what is important to them. It's always been that way. It's the parents that changed along the way.

[karl(east)]

In principle, I'm not opposed to private schools having youth teams. In this particular case, though, I think it's a bad idea.

I'm guessing casual observers don't realize how tenuous the position of Denfeld hockey is. They had one bantam team and one peewee team this past year. Pull a couple of kids off at each level and send them to a Marshall youth team, and they may not be able to field a team. That, in my mind, causes far more damage than the benefits of a creation of a Marshall team.

That may seem to be an argument for a single youth program for the entire city. But if you de-link west side kids from the Denfeld jersey and any sort of neighborhood pride, how does that make them more likely to stay at Denfeld and keep the program going? That's exactly how St. Cloud Apollo happens--there's no base for the pyramid, and suddenly a numbers crisis sneaks up without anyone noticing. It may be touch-and-go for a bit, but with good leadership--and I do think Denfeld hockey has pretty good leadership--they can pull through. The survival of Denfeld, in my mind, should take priority.

Also, I'm not convinced Duluth can support a 4th A-level team at the bantam level. 3 is already a bit of a stretch. I don't think giving Marshall one is going to give more kids the opportunity to play at the "right" level.

If there have been cases of bias against Marshall players in the DAHA program, that is sad, and needs to be rooted out. Maybe it's happened in the past; I don't follow every little cut that happens at the youth level. However, every quality Marshall player to come out of the East system in recent years played Bantam AA. Are we sure that these claims of bias are legitimate, not a matter of gold-colored glasses? Even if it is happening, that's a problem with DAHA leadership, not the model they use. Plenty of other youth programs with kids in private schools seem to manage this without any trouble.

Yes, Duluth has a youth system that is a bit different from other cities. That may seem weird to some people. Let's look at how it works out in practice, though.

The city's entire school-age population is comparable to, and sometimes even smaller than, cities that are half its size. It has arguably the most consistently good AA high school program in the state. It has a quality private school program that's been to state 6 times in the past 11 years, could easily have a couple more if not for Hermantown, and has now made the leap to AA. It has a school that remains consistently competitive in Class A despite meager numbers--numbers that would have us comparing it to the dying inner-ring suburb programs if it were in the Metro. The three have combined for one losing season in the past 10 years. Kids from all three are having success beyond high school hockey. Duluth has managed to sustain this despite the rise of a suburban community that has pulled in a number of top players from the area.

Why exactly is everyone trying to "fix" it again?

[observer]

No schools should have youth hockey programs. That isn't their role or responsibility.

One single youth association does a better job of developing more players by having more skate at the appropriate level. More teams and one single entity pulling for all youth hockey players in Duluth. Competing against each other makes zero sense. They're creating their own division problems instead of avoiding them. One association makes recruiting easier and fundraising much easier and much more successful. I'd even dump the Squirt program as that's where the wrong type of competition dynamic starts.

Get it done Duluth hockey. One single youth association this season. It will amazingly fun and exciting to all work together.

[Froggy Richards]

In principle, I'm not opposed to private schools having youth teams. In this particular case, though, I think it's a bad idea.

I'm guessing casual observers don't realize how tenuous the position of Denfeld hockey is. They had one bantam team and one peewee team this past year. Pull a couple of kids off at each level and send them to a Marshall youth team, and they may not be able to field a team. That, in my mind, causes far more damage than the benefits of a creation of a Marshall team.

That may seem to be an argument for a single youth program for the entire city. But if you de-link west side kids from the Denfeld jersey and any sort of neighborhood pride, how does that make them more likely to stay at Denfeld and keep the program going? That's exactly how St. Cloud Apollo happens--there's no base for the pyramid, and suddenly a numbers crisis sneaks up without anyone noticing. It may be touch-and-go for a bit, but with good leadership--and I do think Denfeld hockey has pretty good leadership--they can pull through. The survival of Denfeld, in my mind, should take priority.

Also, I'm not convinced Duluth can support a 4th A-level team at the bantam level. 3 is already a bit of a stretch. I don't think giving Marshall one is going to give more kids the opportunity to play at the "right" level.

If there have been cases of bias against Marshall players in the DAHA program, that is sad, and needs to be rooted out. Maybe it's happened in the past; I don't follow every little cut that happens at the youth level. However, every quality Marshall player to come out of the East system in recent years played Bantam AA. Are we sure that these claims of bias are legitimate, not a matter of gold-colored glasses? Even if it is happening, that's a problem with DAHA leadership, not the model they use. Plenty of other youth programs with kids in private schools seem to manage this without any trouble.

Yes, Duluth has a youth system that is a bit different from other cities. That may seem weird to some people. Let's look at how it works out in practice, though.

The city's entire school-age population is comparable to, and sometimes even smaller than, cities that are half its size. It has arguably the most consistently good AA high school program in the state. It has a quality private school program that's been to state 6 times in the past 11 years, could easily have a couple more if not for Hermantown, and has now made the leap to AA. It has a school that remains consistently competitive in Class A despite meager numbers--numbers that would have us comparing it to the dying inner-ring suburb programs if it were in the Metro. The three have combined for one losing season in the past 10 years. Kids from all three are having success beyond high school hockey. Duluth has managed to sustain this despite the rise of a suburban community that has pulled in a number of top players from the area.

Why exactly is everyone trying to "fix" it again?

I agree that Marshall having a Bantam Team would not be a good idea for hockey in Duluth. Like you said, Denfeld already has one foot in the grave and this would not help. The discrimination claims were against Hermantown, not DAHA. It was more than likely just a strategy by the Marshall parents. Claim discrimination in today's world and you get people's attention. And it was a good one because it worked. After DAHA voted to rescind approval that strategy was abandoned and changed to, "They just want to feel like they're playing for their school." You have to wonder if part of this wasn't because someone reminded Scott Krenzen that his kid didn't live in or go to school at Hermantown. Despite that he was on the Hermantown PeeWee AA team. Scott may have figured out that maybe he shouldn't be the poster child for the discrimination claim. Notice he was not part of the Marshall contingent at the second meeting.

I'm sure things look just great from over on the East side. It reminds me of the Carpenter nailing up a crooked board for a customer and saying, "Well, it looks good from my house." Yes, Denfeld has survived up to this point but remember, the exodus of youth players only began in earnest about three years ago. It hasn't hit the high school team yet but when it does it could be the final nail in the coffin.

I'm not sure how in touch you are with today's youth game Karl, but I'm right in the middle of it. And what I can tell you is that what jersey a kid pulls on in youth means absolutely nothing to the parents today. They aren't asking, "What can my kid do for the local team?" They are asking, "What can another team do for my kid?" The parents who are going to move their kids will still move them, this wouldn't change anything in that regard. I'm not sure your Apollo example applies anymore. When Herb Brooks coined the term, "Base of the Pyramid", kids played where they lived and went to High School where they lived. That isn't the case anymore so the Base of the Pyramid is city/area wide until the parents decide which program gives their kid the best opportunity for them, not the school.

I don't know if city-wide hockey can save Denfeld, but one thing is pretty certain in my opinion. It couldn't possibly be worse for them. When you can only field one team at PeeWee and Bantam you are in big trouble. There is such a wide gap in talent that this insures that half of your team will not touch the puck much, will not be very involved and will not play very prominent roles. Maybe having those kids on a B team where they belong would actually allow them to develop so that when they do end up at Denfeld High School they are better players. Same goes for the A players. They play with other A players and maybe become better as a result. This would also help to stem the tide of players leaving for Hermantown. If parents see that their kids have an opportunity to play on a top AA team with other kids from Duluth they don't have as much incentive to bolt. Anything that makes Hermantown less attractive to recruits is great for the game up here. I don't have all of the answers, but again, all-city hockey could not possibly be worse for Denfeld.

East on the other hand has no incentive to change the status quo. They are just fine on their own, and if/when Denfeld folds, they get those players that don't go to Hermantown and just become stronger. The rink directors actually voted on all-city hockey in March. This was a non-binding vote as only the board can make a change, but it wasn't surprising to see that all of them on the East side voted against it. Again, I don't know if city-wide hockey can save Denfeld, but doing nothing will most likely insure their demise.

[wannagototherink]

No schools should have youth hockey programs. That isn't their role or responsibility.

One single youth association does a better job of developing more players by having more skate at the appropriate level. More teams and one single entity pulling for all youth hockey players in Duluth. Competing against each other makes zero sense. They're creating their own division problems instead of avoiding them. One association makes recruiting easier and fundraising much easier and much more successful. I'd even dump the Squirt program as that's where the wrong type of competition dynamic starts.

Get it done Duluth hockey. One single youth association this season. It will amazingly fun and exciting to all work together.

I totally disagree with Duluth going to a city wide hockey program. Right now and most years Duluth hosts 3 A level teams, DE has AA and A, Denfeld has A. That is 3 teams at the A level (which Minnesota Hockey has said is all one level) How many A teams does Edina have, or Wayzata or OMG? DAHA is giving as many if not more of a percentage players an opportunity to play A level hockey as anyone.

Both East Youth Hockey and Denfeld Youth Hockey have worked together on a number of occasions to allow those Denfeld players an opportunity to play A hockey in East Duluth on those years when Denfeld couldn't field an A team. As far as discrimination, If you were to look at the rosters of the Bantam and Peewee AA (or A prior to the switch) teams over the last 15 years you will see that those teams are littered with player that eventually played their high school hockey at DM. There is not one legitament claim of discrimination against DM players in Duluth Amatuer Hockey Association. If anyone want to take the time to look all you have to do is pull up the rosters.


The camp/clinics where DM players aren't allowed to attend is Mike Randolphs Hockey Camp, which is a private business and he has the right to allow whoever he wants into his hockey camp. That camp is not affliated with DAHA one bit. DAHA should not be associated with that camp at all nor should the criteria for which it takes to attend be something that is associated with DAHA.

For those that think DAHA is picking on DM because they are a private school. Until recently Duluth had 3 public high schools. 12 years before Central closed DAHA combined the Duluth Central and Duluth Denfeld programs because the numbers did not support justifying 3 youth associations and so the Laker Program was created. There were more kids playing hockey in Duluth at the time when Central was disbanded and the Lakers were created then there is now, so tell me how DAHA can really justify a 4th team. Last thing that I think should be considered is, DM is counting on up to 6 players from outside of Duluth to commit to attending school at DM next year to make this team viable. How can anyone approve a team when there aren't even enough players currently to make it legit?

[karl(east)]

I'm sure things look just great from over on the East side. It reminds me of the Carpenter nailing up a crooked board for a customer and saying, "Well, it looks good from my house." Yes, Denfeld has survived up to this point but remember, the exodus of youth players only began in earnest about three years ago. It hasn't hit the high school team yet but when it does it could be the final nail in the coffin.

I'm not sure how in touch you are with today's youth game Karl, but I'm right in the middle of it. And what I can tell you is that what jersey a kid pulls on in youth means absolutely nothing to the parents today. They aren't asking, "What can my kid do for the local team?" They are asking, "What can another team do for my kid?" The parents who are going to move their kids will still move them, this wouldn't change anything in that regard. I'm not sure your Apollo example applies anymore. When Herb Brooks coined the term, "Base of the Pyramid", kids played where they lived and went to High School where they lived. That isn't the case anymore so the Base of the Pyramid is city/area wide until the parents decide which program gives their kid the best opportunity for them, not the school.

I don't know if city-wide hockey can save Denfeld, but one thing is pretty certain in my opinion. It couldn't possibly be worse for them. When you can only field one team at PeeWee and Bantam you are in big trouble. There is such a wide gap in talent that this insures that half of your team will not touch the puck much, will not be very involved and will not play very prominent roles. Maybe having those kids on a B team where they belong would actually allow them to develop so that when they do end up at Denfeld High School they are better players. Same goes for the A players. They play with other A players and maybe become better as a result. This would also help to stem the tide of players leaving for Hermantown. If parents see that their kids have an opportunity to play on a top AA team with other kids from Duluth they don't have as much incentive to bolt. Anything that makes Hermantown less attractive to recruits is great for the game up here. I don't have all of the answers, but again, all-city hockey could not possibly be worse for Denfeld.

East on the other hand has no incentive to change the status quo. They are just fine on their own, and if/when Denfeld folds, they get those players that don't go to Hermantown and just become stronger. The rink directors actually voted on all-city hockey in March. This was a non-binding vote as only the board can make a change, but it wasn't surprising to see that all of them on the East side voted against it. Again, I don't know if city-wide hockey can save Denfeld, but doing nothing will most likely insure their demise.

Froggy, you've obviously seen the effects of player migration firsthand, and it's revealed an ugly side of youth sports. You're in the trenches, and can certainly give a more vivid account of what's going on there than I can from a distance. But distance has helped me see things in a different light. Namely:

1. I can tell you that this "exodus" is nothing new. There's been a steady flow of kids out from Denfeld (and Central, back in the day) for a very long time. This may be a particularly bad period, and it may be to a new destination (Hermantown), but it is most definitely not some new phenomenon that has appeared in the past couple years. It's an extreme, not a diversion from the norm. Parents have been this cutthroat for at least a generation. It's all I've ever known. It's reality.

2. "Things couldn't possibly be worse for Denfeld"? Oh, they most certainly could. Come take a look at some of the inner-ring suburbs down around the Metro. Come see what's become of Twin Cities hockey. Sure, they've done a nice job of bringing the Minneapolis youth program back some, but that's done little to nothing for the high school program they now feed into. All of the co-oping and merging in the world can't overcome socioeconomics and the lure of greener grass.

3. If the St. Cloud Apollo story isn't enough to make you wary of the blindness of a single youth program, check out Rochester, where Century--by no means a poverty-stricken or destitute school--is now in a tenuous place thanks to the way the boundaries have come down. Pull a youth program together under one giant umbrella, and the incentive to focus on any one part of the city dies, leading to neglect at the lowest levels, which is where the fate of Denfeld hockey ultimately rests. A co-op might keep a handful of top-end kids home for a couple years, but if there's rot at the core, it's no more than a temporary fix. It just lets the stronger hockey areas of town cover up the weak ones.

I disagree with observer on this one, mostly because I think he's applying a one-size-fits-all approach based on his experience without looking at the broader evidence. But one line he has used in the past is very true, hammering home an important point: how many new mites did your program recruit this season? The point of the "base of the pyramid" argument isn't just a matter of creating loyalty. It's about getting people invested in something bigger, and willing to support a program beyond their kid's time there. It's about broadening the base enough so that when kids leave--as some will inevitably do in this day in age, no matter where you are--there are others to take their places.

For a close to home example, take East: just a couple of years ago, they were down to 4 PW and 3 bantam teams. Now, they're up to 6 and 4, respectively. Why? It's not because their population base is growing, that's for sure. It's because some committed people went out and recruited more kids. Yes, Denfeld has some financial limits that East doesn't, but the troubles Denfeld faces are not on the magnitude of those facing a number of programs in the state. Denfeld still has great community support, still has a student population on the high side of Class A, still has a poverty rate that (while high) is not inner-city level, and still has a population that comes from a culture where kids are familiar with hockey (unlike many inner-ring Metro schools these days...not much hockey culture for Laotian or Somalian immigrants). This is a salvageable situation, if people get it together.

Or we can just accept our doom at the hands of the oppressors up in Hermantown.

[SCBlueLiner]

Karl, these two paragraphs you wrote sum up everything i have been saying in this thread:

3. If the St. Cloud Apollo story isn't enough to make you wary of the blindness of a single youth program, check out Rochester, where Century--by no means a poverty-stricken or destitute school--is now in a tenuous place thanks to the way the boundaries have come down. Pull a youth program together under one giant umbrella, and the incentive to focus on any one part of the city dies, leading to neglect at the lowest levels, which is where the fate of Denfeld hockey ultimately rests. A co-op might keep a handful of top-end kids home for a couple years, but if there's rot at the core, it's no more than a temporary fix. It just lets the stronger hockey areas of town cover up the weak ones.

I disagree with observer on this one, mostly because I think he's applying a one-size-fits-all approach based on his experience without looking at the broader evidence. But one line he has used in the past is very true, hammering home an important point: how many new mites did your program recruit this season? The point of the "base of the pyramid" argument isn't just a matter of creating loyalty. It's about getting people invested in something bigger, and willing to support a program beyond their kid's time there. It's about broadening the base enough so that when kids leave--as some will inevitably do in this day in age, no matter where you are--there are others to take their places.

The high school is the top of the pyramid, mites is the bottom. I'm advocating there be one pyramid for each high school. That way the people in that high school, that community, that side of town will take care of that pyramid, work at building the base, so that the top of that pyramid can rise higher than those around it. Right now, with city wide programs in the towns you mentioned, the pyramid is someone else's. The base of it up through Peewees and Bantams is one pyramid then they go to a different pyramid. How can you build the pyramid high if you are not solely responsible for the base?

[Froggy Richards]

I'm sure things look just great from over on the East side. It reminds me of the Carpenter nailing up a crooked board for a customer and saying, "Well, it looks good from my house." Yes, Denfeld has survived up to this point but remember, the exodus of youth players only began in earnest about three years ago. It hasn't hit the high school team yet but when it does it could be the final nail in the coffin.

I'm not sure how in touch you are with today's youth game Karl, but I'm right in the middle of it. And what I can tell you is that what jersey a kid pulls on in youth means absolutely nothing to the parents today. They aren't asking, "What can my kid do for the local team?" They are asking, "What can another team do for my kid?" The parents who are going to move their kids will still move them, this wouldn't change anything in that regard. I'm not sure your Apollo example applies anymore. When Herb Brooks coined the term, "Base of the Pyramid", kids played where they lived and went to High School where they lived. That isn't the case anymore so the Base of the Pyramid is city/area wide until the parents decide which program gives their kid the best opportunity for them, not the school.

I don't know if city-wide hockey can save Denfeld, but one thing is pretty certain in my opinion. It couldn't possibly be worse for them. When you can only field one team at PeeWee and Bantam you are in big trouble. There is such a wide gap in talent that this insures that half of your team will not touch the puck much, will not be very involved and will not play very prominent roles. Maybe having those kids on a B team where they belong would actually allow them to develop so that when they do end up at Denfeld High School they are better players. Same goes for the A players. They play with other A players and maybe become better as a result. This would also help to stem the tide of players leaving for Hermantown. If parents see that their kids have an opportunity to play on a top AA team with other kids from Duluth they don't have as much incentive to bolt. Anything that makes Hermantown less attractive to recruits is great for the game up here. I don't have all of the answers, but again, all-city hockey could not possibly be worse for Denfeld.

East on the other hand has no incentive to change the status quo. They are just fine on their own, and if/when Denfeld folds, they get those players that don't go to Hermantown and just become stronger. The rink directors actually voted on all-city hockey in March. This was a non-binding vote as only the board can make a change, but it wasn't surprising to see that all of them on the East side voted against it. Again, I don't know if city-wide hockey can save Denfeld, but doing nothing will most likely insure their demise.

2. "Things couldn't possibly be worse for Denfeld"? Oh, they most certainly could. Come take a look at some of the inner-ring suburbs down around the Metro. Come see what's become of Twin Cities hockey. Sure, they've done a nice job of bringing the Minneapolis youth program back some, but that's done little to nothing for the high school program they now feed into. All of the co-oping and merging in the world can't overcome socioeconomics and the lure of greener grass.

That's not what I said. I said that All-City hockey couldn't possibly be worse for Denfeld. Right now, parents of the Mites in Piedmont and GMP have two options.

1. They can stick around and keep their fingers crossed that Denfeld will still have that one non-competitive PeeWee and Bantam A team when they get to that age, with no B option for players who aren't ready, or.....

2. They can bolt for Hermantown or East.

All-City hockey would replace that first option with the following.

Those Parents would now have the opportunity for their kids to play on a top AA or A team at PeeWee and Bantam. They would have family friends, brothers, sisters and cousins who have kids on those teams. They would catch some games, see the top end hockey, build some excitement! The parents start dreaming about their kids pulling on that Duluth PeeWee AA and Bantam AA jersey. All of a sudden Hermantown becomes just another city built on a swamp, with over-crowded schools, high taxes and one sheet of indoor ice to accomodate 30-40 youth teams. There is a buzz around Youth Hockey on the West End that we haven't seen since Robb Stauber played! More and more kids are coming out for hockey, the Base of the Pyramid is booming and before anyone stops to take a breath, they are all 2nd year Bantams and it's too late to transfer. They're all Denfeld Hunters now and have a great High School Team! Hockey in West Duluth is Re-Born!!!!!

Or, we can just keep it the way it is and hope that it magically turns around. But where I come from, Hope is not a strategy.

[SCBlueLiner]

Or the Denfield faithful can start pounding the pavement, the local schools, the gyms and baseball fields or wherever else you find 6-8 year old kids and sign them up for Denfeld hockey.

You want Denfeld Youth & High School hockey to thrive, the best way to do that is take control of your own destiny and make it happen. Not rely on another entity to recruit kids for you and hope they recruit enough kids from your side of town.

[observer]

All motivated by selfish people. We're talking about what's the best way to develop the most youth hockey players (grades 1-9).

One single youth association!

Everyone working together to develop more and better players, boys and girls, with zero consideration where they'll attend high school. That's the role of a youth hockey association.

[karl(east)]

All motivated by selfish people. We're talking about what's the best way to develop the most youth hockey players (grades 1-9).

One single youth association!

This past season, Duluth had 3 Bantam A or AA teams. Not even Edina can say that. That sort of dynamic just won't ever happen in a program where everyone is funneled into one place. And Duluth is the one that isn't developing enough hockey players?

If it's "selfish" to care about the fate of a high school hockey program by looking at what's coming up through the youth ranks, I guess the entire community-based system is "selfish." That's the whole premise: you take care of those immediately around you and build something on your own. There really is something kind of tribal about it, but (most of us, anyway) stick with it because it has some obvious benefits, and from a strictly practical matter, is pretty well entrenched. And like it or not, MH has chained youth programs to public school attendance areas. It's delusional to pretend they aren't related.

It seems kind of arbitrary to say that, just because two schools are under the same umbrella, they can't have their own feeder system. What if Chaska and Chanhassen, two partners who once fed the same high school, decide to go their separate ways now that they have their own high school? Is that allowed because they're separate towns? Or if they have the same overarching youth program, are they forever forced to play together? How about Lakeville; are we going to beat them up for having North and South programs?

Froggy, you seem to say the argument in favor of separate youth programs involves "doing nothing." That couldn't be further from the truth. I think it would be a terrible tragedy if Denfeld hockey died. I think Denfeld need a very strong, intentional effort to get more kids on skates. I'm just saying that impetus has to come from the inside, not somewhere higher up in the DAHA bureaucracy. You say "hope" isn't a strategy, but how is it any less wishful to say it's possible to pull all of this together, and that some of my earlier worries aren't also very possible? I can just as easily imagine a scenario where the creation of an all-Duluth team brings on laments over the decline and death of hockey on the west side. If kids now have to compete with everyone on the east side for a spot on a top team, is that really an incentive? And no, Hermantown will not magically disappear as a talent magnet if Duluth combines. When Minneapolis co-oped into one program, do you think kids stopped running off for Breck or Blake or Benilde? I'll give you a hint: they didn't. I know you're no fan of the Hawks, but they're here to stay. The community is too affluent and committed to hockey for it to be otherwise.

We're all speculating here, but I'm at least trying to pull in some comparisons instead of believing blindly that change will magically fix things, or relying on vague theory about what youth hockey "should" do. I just want to see as many kids playing hockey for as long as possible, and there hasn't been much evidence that altering the status quo will do much. I'm willing to be convinced.

The forces that govern youth hockey, or most any realm of human life, are a horrid mess if you start from some ideal of what things should look like. If you start from reality, it just is what it is, and you have to focus on controlling what you can control. The thing you can control is getting more kids on the ice in your own backyard, and working to get some fellow parents on board. It may not always be the most satisfying answer, but if it's all you've got, it's all you've got.

[wannagototherink]

All motivated by selfish people. We're talking about what's the best way to develop the most youth hockey players (grades 1-9).

One single youth association!

Everyone working together to develop more and better players, boys and girls, with zero consideration where they'll attend high school. That's the role of a youth hockey association.

Minnesota Hockey made it about feeding high school programs when they included where you attend school as part of the residency criteria. I honestly don't see how anyone can argue any different. If it wasn't about feeding the high schools why doesn't MH just follow the rest of USA Hockey and go to birth years? That would open up a ton of opportunities across the state for more kids to play higher level (tier 1) hockey, not just Duluth? You know why they don't follow USA Hockey, because our whole model in this state is focused on funneling players to high school hockey.

[SCBlueLiner]

All motivated by selfish people. We're talking about what's the best way to develop the most youth hockey players (grades 1-9).

One single youth association!

Everyone working together to develop more and better players, boys and girls, with zero consideration where they'll attend high school. That's the role of a youth hockey association.

Yes. We have found common ground. We both want the best way to develop the most youth hockey players. Where we disagree is the method. Your belief is one city wide organization for youth. My belief is linking the feeder programs to the high school. Make that HS community solely responsible for the recruitment and development of players from K through 12. The community then has its own destiny in its hands, from there it is up to them.

I won't get into the established link between youth and high school because that has already been determined by MN Hockey with their transfer policies and now AA/A hockey designations.

It is all still community based hockey. In fact, it drills down to the heart of community based neighborhood hockey just like Herb Brooks advocated.

[Froggy Richards]

All motivated by selfish people. We're talking about what's the best way to develop the most youth hockey players (grades 1-9).

One single youth association!

This past season, Duluth had 3 Bantam A or AA teams. Not even Edina can say that. That sort of dynamic just won't ever happen in a program where everyone is funneled into one place. And Duluth is the one that isn't developing enough hockey players?

If it's "selfish" to care about the fate of a high school hockey program by looking at what's coming up through the youth ranks, I guess the entire community-based system is "selfish." That's the whole premise: you take care of those immediately around you and build something on your own. There really is something kind of tribal about it, but (most of us, anyway) stick with it because it has some obvious benefits, and from a strictly practical matter, is pretty well entrenched. And like it or not, MH has chained youth programs to public school attendance areas. It's delusional to pretend they aren't related.

It seems kind of arbitrary to say that, just because two schools are under the same umbrella, they can't have their own feeder system. What if Chaska and Chanhassen, two partners who once fed the same high school, decide to go their separate ways now that they have their own high school? Is that allowed because they're separate towns? Or if they have the same overarching youth program, are they forever forced to play together? How about Lakeville; are we going to beat them up for having North and South programs?

Froggy, you seem to say the argument in favor of separate youth programs involves "doing nothing." That couldn't be further from the truth. I think it would be a terrible tragedy if Denfeld hockey died. I think Denfeld need a very strong, intentional effort to get more kids on skates. I'm just saying that impetus has to come from the inside, not somewhere higher up in the DAHA bureaucracy. You say "hope" isn't a strategy, but how is it any less wishful to say it's possible to pull all of this together, and that some of my earlier worries aren't also very possible? I can just as easily imagine a scenario where the creation of an all-Duluth team brings on laments over the decline and death of hockey on the west side. If kids now have to compete with everyone on the east side for a spot on a top team, is that really an incentive? And no, Hermantown will not magically disappear as a talent magnet if Duluth combines. When Minneapolis co-oped into one program, do you think kids stopped running off for Breck or Blake or Benilde? I'll give you a hint: they didn't. I know you're no fan of the Hawks, but they're here to stay. The community is too affluent and committed to hockey for it to be otherwise.

We're all speculating here, but I'm at least trying to pull in some comparisons instead of believing blindly that change will magically fix things, or relying on vague theory about what youth hockey "should" do. I just want to see as many kids playing hockey for as long as possible, and there hasn't been much evidence that altering the status quo will do much. I'm willing to be convinced.

The forces that govern youth hockey, or most any realm of human life, are a horrid mess if you start from some ideal of what things should look like. If you start from reality, it just is what it is, and you have to focus on controlling what you can control. The thing you can control is getting more kids on the ice in your own backyard, and working to get some fellow parents on board. It may not always be the most satisfying answer, but if it's all you've got, it's all you've got.

If you haven't noticed, Hockey is not a game for the masses anymore. Like it or not, it's what we've made it. You can't just recruit your way out of it anymore. Either we are willing to try to do things differently, or programs will die. Irving is gone. GMP is next. Piedmont can probably hang on for a little while but then they eventually go and Denfeld follows.

And then we have All-City Hockey, we just don't have any programs on the west side anymore.

[observer]

Everyone is concerned about high school team. That can wait. Youth hockey is grades 1-9. One single hockey program would have the biggest benefit at the mite level. I know about the sacred mite program in Duluth. Time to put them all together. Many more kids will play along with more and better volunteers focused on one single organization. Healthier environment with more players on the right team at the right level. Noticeably better development for all youth players.

[wannagototherink]

Everyone is concerned about high school team. That can wait. Youth hockey is grades 1-9. One single hockey program would have the biggest benefit at the mite level. I know about the sacred mite program in Duluth. Time to put them all together. Many more kids will play along with more and better volunteers focused on one single organization. Healthier environment with more players on the right team at the right level. Noticeably better development for all youth players.

So you are saying Duluth should be done with the individual local rinks? That sounds like one of the most insane things I have ever read on this board if that is what you are suggesting? Assuming that crazy people take over the hockey association in Duluth, where would you have these all city mite teams play? Would you still have the rinks? Wouldn't it be great to be a single mom in Morgan Park and have your mite playing on a team at Portman? You certainly couldn't get all those kids in at the heritage center, the high schools lock that place up for 75% of the week. The local rink model Duluth uses is the darling of the country if not North America, why on earth would anyone want to change that?

[observer]

You can still localize the teams to a broad degree and use the neighborhood rinks but I'm saying register, organize and schedule through one organization. Build hockey in Duluth holding hands instead of competing with one another since birth. We're trying to develop more and better players in grades 1-9 and everyone working together will improve on the current cluster of competing factions starting at kindergarten.

Better recruiting, more players, more and better teams, more and better volunteers and more revenue from a single fundraising effort supporting all of Duluth youth hockey.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

I think I speak for most metro dads that we truly envy the outdoor rink system in the Duluth area. So each rink is organizing, supporting, building mite teams in their "neighborhoods," then at squirts or peewees or bantams the players are sorted into East or Denfeld depending on their home addresses? And I'd assume school attendance can override home address. My question is just then if your community is already splitting the 10-11 and older players between programs (feeder/development/whatever you want to call it) based on where they will attend high school, why would it hurt your programs if a third school driven youth program starts up? Seems it would benefit all schools if their resources were driving the future of their own eventual jv/varsity. Seems to reason that seniors who've been together at least part of the year since peewees may have an advantage in chemistry, familiarity, and systems. If all three programs share camps, clinics, elite leagues, scrimmages then all three get the best of both worlds - playing better competition to drive them, playing with each other to bond them? Down here it's always hard to see those ninth grade and older transfers out of our own program, knowing if we could keep everyone together we would have a MAJOR and indisputable advantage. That's not realistic. Players and families are coming in and out every year.
So if you already have a two school division coming out of a (10?) local rink division, why would a three school division coming out of the local rink division hurt the existing model? Marshall seems to be asking for what East and Denfeld already have???
And in fairness, if a young player has two brothers who play at Marshall and his future is almost certainly not East or Denfeld, that kid probably isn't getting the same investment or mentoring by Randolph or anyone else who by definition has to look out for number one (their own jv/varsity which will be competing against this kid.) How many times have you heard the frustration of coaches EVERYWHERE who don't want to train their competition?

[Wet Paint]

Pretty sure I remember reading here about the s*** fit with association hockey up there when private Marshall wanted to start a Tier 1 program. At that time the argument was parity and there were tons of examples of Marshall kids getting left off top Duluth teams and not getting invited/accepted to local clinics and camps. Now I have no idea if any of that kind of discrimination or bias against Marshall students was true but Marshall's attorney proved enough of it that MN hockey overruled the vote against it by the locals. It seems like making the argument that the same rules and standards re: youth hockey are equal for both publics and privates in MN means they will get to do this?? Is girls 10/12/14u to follow? Would be interesting to see the meeting minutes from that Tier 1 situation. Were you around for that Froggy?

No, I really haven't followed the girls side of things much. It would not surprise me if Marshall kids were being discriminated against in some ways though. I realize that nobody likes Privates, but they're still kids and you hate to see any kid suffer for decisions that they have nothing to do with. If the kids got to decide where they went to school, most privates would probably not exist.

I think you are wrong here. Kids like to win. I have had an assortment of kids play an assortment of sports and I can tell you that they hate losing but most of all they hate not having a chance. The kids who are going to Denfeld right now are getting out of there and will continue to as the better kids leave. I think that if you gave the competitive kids a choice they would all go to a private school. Not because they are all thinking they are gong to turn pro (although they all do) but rather because they want to play and have fun and win. The associations right now completely limit where they can play which puts a lot of them into a position where they know they will never be on a winning team. Think about those kids who go to some of the almost dead associations who know right now in May that they are going to go onto a team next fall that is going to get killed pretty much every game. I had a kid who played for a team who took anybody who signed up even if they couldn't skate or could skate (sort of) but had never play hockey and they hated it to a kid. The parents hated it. The board members didn't mind it as their kids did not play on that lower level team so they did not and do not see a reason to change the policy, they just cash the checks.

The people in Hermantown and Duluth East and probably even Proctor would be crazy to not discriminate against kids who are enrolled in DM and playing youth for those associations. Would you want to train the kids that you are going to be facing in a couple of years? Probably not. Who ever says that there is not a connection between youth and high school hockey is way out of touch. That is why the high school coaches never run summer camps. You never ever hear about high school coaches talking to BN coaches to find out who can handle it and who can't. It goes on all of the time.

I think that Denfeld hockey is done whether or not DM gets a youth program. Proctor is next to fall and then probably the co-op between Two Harbors and Silver Bay is gone too. Hockey is too expensive to play and getting more expensive all the time. Nobody wants to dump money down a hole that has no chance of success and will either go elsewhere or will just walk off and do something different.