Bantam AA team for Duluth Marshall?

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:14 am

While reading the Minutes from MN Hockey's winter meetings, I saw something that I'm surprised hasn't come up on this board. Duluth Marshall has asked for permission to field a Bantam AA team. It says in the minutes that Privates have only been allowed B teams in the past. This will be a very interesting Development in Duluth if MN Hockey grants them permission to do this. Looks like Marshall opting up to AA in High School could have an even bigger ripple effect on Hockey in the Duluth area than we thought.

observer · Post by **observer** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:45 pm

No schools should have youth teams. Play youth where you live and then go to HS. No good reason for MN Hockey to allow any school to have a youth team. Kill Blake ( had it done at one time then caved) while you're at it and then there will be none.

SCBlueLiner · Post by **SCBlueLiner** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:00 pm

You do have to admit that MN Hockey blurred the lines with the whole AA/A format at the youth level. Those AA/A classifications for the most part mimic the the AA/A classification of the HS program the youth program feeds into. Where those classifications don't match up you see people on this board hooting and hollering that X association needs to move up because their HS is AA. It also gets confusing with the transfer policy. Do you play where you live or where you go to school? It is allowed to play where you go to school.

Why can't a private school have a youth system for the grade schools that feed into the high school? I have seen it for other sports. I have seen Catholic grade school leagues for football. I have seen the Fargo Angels youth hockey program. It's not an uncommon thing across this country.

What if an entity wanted to start an association for those hockey kids that went to Catholic grade schools throughout the metro area, call it the St. Paul Angels program, or Minneapolis Knights, or South Metro Crusaders, or whatever. Could something like that fly?

observer · Post by **observer** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:11 pm

No. Not needed.
We have a youth hockey association that serves every neighborhood which is sufficient. Youth hockey associations develop youth players then they play for their HS in 10th grade. The same for everyone. Once you vary it may create unfair advantages so don't do it and avoid special deals.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:56 am

JUst another slick coach/allum/parent/A-director trying to stretch the rules. Mn hockey needs to step on this and squish it before it goes "viral".

SCBlueLiner · Post by **SCBlueLiner** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:57 am

Yeah, don't think so OG. I got no skin in this game, just making observations and offering opinions.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:36 am

Not sayin you... Anyone that wants to partake.

Wet Paint · Post by **Wet Paint** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:07 pm

Why not? I am going to go out on a bit of a limb here as I assume that DM has a middle school so they have grades 4 through 12 or something like that. If a kid wants to go to DM for what ever reason why should he not be able to play hockey with his class mates? I can't imagine that a kid who goes to DM and has to play hockey for East or Denfeld or Hermantown gets treated very well by those associations. Like I said, I don't know for sure but I bet that a kid who is a known loss to DM when he goes into 9th grade probably does not get put onto the AA teams or really coached up like a kid who that is assumed to be staying "home" to go to high school. I am not blaming the home associations but why would Denfeld put a lot of effort into a kid who was going to play for a high school rival? I would make them play by the same rules for transfering associations but I would let them do it.

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:06 am

Wet Paint wrote:Why not? I am going to go out on a bit of a limb here as I assume that DM has a middle school so they have grades 4 through 12 or something like that. If a kid wants to go to DM for what ever reason why should he not be able to play hockey with his class mates? I can't imagine that a kid who goes to DM and has to play hockey for East or Denfeld or Hermantown gets treated very well by those associations. Like I said, I don't know for sure but I bet that a kid who is a known loss to DM when he goes into 9th grade probably does not get put onto the AA teams or really coached up like a kid who that is assumed to be staying "home" to go to high school. I am not blaming the home associations but why would Denfeld put a lot of effort into a kid who was going to play for a high school rival? I would make them play by the same rules for transfering associations but I would let them do it.

Yes, Marshall has Grades 4-12. I think you're probably right. It's really no different than a kid open enrolling at school and playing for any other Association.

bemused · Post by **bemused** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:26 pm

SPA,STA and all privates with a middle school will be right behind them..

observer · Post by **observer** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:28 pm

Not gonna happen. Youth players play youth hockey then go to HS to play HS hockey. That's the model. Not to be messed with.

Duluth has it messed up already. Should be a single youth association to develop all players regardless of where they go to school. It's fun to develop good teams and players and youth associations should have no connection to specific high schools. Not their role.

Wet Paint · Post by **Wet Paint** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:40 pm

observer wrote:Not gonna happen. Youth players play youth hockey then go to HS to play HS hockey. That's the model. Not to be messed with

I am sort of slow (easy there) but it sounds like we agree. Youth players play youth hockey for a youth hockey association and then move onto HS to play HS hockey. The question that I have is that if DM is a school system and the youth programs in MN seem to be centered around schools and neighborhoods with the general goal of having kids play hockey with their classmates and peers then why would a youth association centered on the community of DM's schools not be in order? I don't really care one way or the other as I do not have any kids who play hockey or who would be affected either way but I am sort of curious.

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:03 pm

observer wrote:Not gonna happen. Youth players play youth hockey then go to HS to play HS hockey. That's the model. Not to be messed with.

Duluth has it messed up already. Should be a single youth association to develop all players regardless of where they go to school. It's fun to develop good teams and players and youth associations should have no connection to specific high schools. Not their role.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. What I'm hearing is that DAHA has no problem with it, so I would be surprised if MN Hockey doesn't allow it. It's being pushed by a couple of parents who's kids play Youth Hockey in Hermantown but attend school at Marshall. They claim that the kids who attend Marshall are being discriminated against. Here are the minutes from the DAHA board meeting in January:

Brendan Flaherty the Marshall High School Hockey Coach along with Pete Stauber, Scott Krenzen, & Bronwynn Pichetti came to speak about wanting to have their own Marshall Bantam AA team. DAHA will check guidelines and also with MN Hockey and get back to Marshall. Time frame could be after May 2015 meeting. Marshall was asked to provide DAHA a letter in writing stating their intentions. Pete Stauber & Scott Krenzen stated kids attending Marshall that live in Hermantown are not given a fair shot to play on their AA teams because the players will not be attending Hermantown High School. Brenden Flaherty also stated he thought the Marshall Players were being discriminated against. Paul Altmann expressed to the board that his two boys played bantam AA for the East program & their teams had players from Marshall and they chose the best players who could play at the AA level no matter where they went to school.

Interesting that Mr. Krenzen doesn't even live in Hermantown, yet his kid played youth Hockey there this year while attending school at Marshall. I wonder if it's really discrimination that he's worried about?

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:36 pm

Now this is based on my memory so I could be wrong... But after squirts don't Duluth kids get split between East and Denfeld for peewees and bantams? So if they already have a geography/school based model, how can you argue that a third high school shouldn't be in the mix? Would Marshall bantams play peewees at East?

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:03 pm

Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:Now this is based on my memory so I could be wrong... But after squirts don't Duluth kids get split between East and Denfeld for peewees and bantams? So if they already have a geography/school based model, how can you argue that a third high school shouldn't be in the mix? Would Marshall bantams play peewees at East?

Yes, starting in PeeWees kids in Duluth play for either East or Denfeld. Kids who attend Marshall play youth Hockey in their Association of Residence until they join Marshall JV or Varsity.

observer · Post by **observer** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:22 pm

Should have one youth association only. Develop all kids without prejudice. That's the role.

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Fri May 01, 2015 10:38 am

March 25, 2015 DAHA Board Meeting:

MEETING WAS SUSPENDED FOR MARSHALL PRESENTATION:
Brendan Flaherty again approached DAHA requesting to form a Bantam team, this time at the A level. Information was given by B. Flaherty and interested Marshall parents B. Pichetti and B. Stauber. Marshall would only allow those students enrolled at their school to tryout for the A team. Any cuts being made would be absorbed by DAHA Bantam B teams. It is a safety issue regarding the playing level. The hockey players at Marshall just want to feel like they’re playing for their home team and be a feeder program. B. Stauber questioned certain players from out of the area that were enrolled with DAHA and playing for the associations under DAHA’s umbrella. The president of Marshall school later arrived and presented strongly that this is a hockey community and should accept the proposal to have Marshall have a Bantam A team so as to have equal and fair opportunity for all players.

1) Marshall proposal regarding their own Bantam A team – further discussion was held by board members with input at times from B. Klosowski, out of order. S. Pitoscia made a motion to vote on the proposal for Marshall to have a Bantam A team. J. Wutz made an amendment to the motion and asked for a paper ballot. S. Pitoscia accepted the amendment to his motion. R. Nakajima 2nd the motion. Vote was held, *6-5 in favor of allowing Marshall to have its own Bantam A team. Next step, formulating an agreement under the DAHA umbrella

DAHA Special Board Meeting, April 15th

MEETING WAS SUSPENDED AT 6:09 P.M.
Jim DeBoer spoke on behalf of the East End Board – totally against Marshall having a bantam team, detrimental to hockey in the area; If allowed, can Marshall kids tryout for East End AA team?
Response: It will be school based. If students are transferring in, their first year of eligibility may be at the B level and not at the A level
Kevin Smalley spoke on behalf of Denfeld HS hockey – it will have an overall effect on the Denfeld program into the future; the HS program is not failing now but if this is allowed, going forward may be different.
Lon Hovlund – the proposal and the voting came on very fast without all questions answered; Piedmont right now is being hit hardest by kids going everywhere; simply put, it’s more about school and community and developing the program
Dave Shea spoke on behalf of GMP and Denfeld Youth – RDs voted pretty much unanimously not to allow the bantam team at Marshall; how can Duluth hockey support the numbers of four A teams to be competitive?
Brett Klosowski – How does this affect youth hockey?
- Adds numbers to DAHA
- By adding numbers, it generates more revenue through fees, buying ice, calendar sales
- More competition – positive
- Marshall is just asking for the same opportunity that East and Denfeld are given
- It creates more opportunities for kids to play A level hockey

MEETING WAS CALLED BACK TO ORDER AT 6:22 P.M.
Further discussion was held among board members regarding the vote that occurred on March 25, the letters that have been received from an attorney representing Marshall parents, how that information is getting to the attorney, whether the motion to rescind is viable to do under Robert’s Rules (MN Hockey parliamentarian was consulted regarding this and DAHA was advised it could be done), how much will it affect Denfeld hockey and their numbers and the competitiveness.
Call for a vote was made by VP Pitoscia on the motion to rescind the vote of March 25, 2015:
In favor to rescind – 12
Opposed – 1
Motion carries.

Looks like there will be no Bantam Team at Marshall this year.

SCBlueLiner · Post by **SCBlueLiner** » Fri May 01, 2015 10:38 am

observer wrote:Should have one youth association only. Develop all kids without prejudice. That's the role.

I think it really depends on where you are located. Look at St. Cloud Apollo. If the youth association lined up with the high school they could control their own destiny and the Apollo families (and this applies to any other school) could recruit and build a program from the grass roots. As it is now, the future of the Apollo program is subject to the fates and whims of whether enough kids coming up through the St. Cloud youth hockey system end up going to Apollo and, if there are enough players, the quality of the team is dependant upon how good of a job the youth hockey program is in developing young players. In both cases, Apollo has no control over the future of its hockey program. Take what I said about Apollo and St. Cloud and apply it to the cities of Rochester, Mankato, and Duluth where there are multiple high schools in one city.

Allowing the public schools to align the youth program with their high school boundaries and allowing private schools to start youth hockey programs doesn't go against the community based model, it just expands on the definition of what the community is from a geographical area to one of school affilition. The catholic grade schools are more like a community inside the community, what's wrong with allowing them to start their own sports program? The worst that happens is Marshall, or (insert any other private school name here), doesn't get accused of "recruiting" East, Denfeld, or Hermantown players if they grew up and were developed inside a Marshall youth program.

I could argue that having associations aligned with high schools, thereby making the youth program a feeder to the high school, would be very good for youth hockey. The high schools have incentive to recruit new hockey players and develop them because those players, and the strength of their youth program, will directly effect the quality of the high school program. Right now, in many areas, there is a disconnect between the high school program and the youth program, as the high school just ends up with whatever players choose to go to school there, or worse, they recruit players from other schools and towns to come to their school. Imagine what it would look like if they were able to drill right down into kindergarten and build the program from the ground up. I think it would be a win/win for high school hockey and youth hockey both in terms of numbers and quality of players.

SCBlueLiner · Post by **SCBlueLiner** » Fri May 01, 2015 10:53 am

Froggy, reading that I think these Marshall parents are barking up the wrong tree. If I were them I would petition Minnesota Hockey directly for permission to start the Duluth Marsall Youth Hockey Association and would put together a program that starts at mites and runs all the way through bantams.

Going through the the Duluth youth association is a non-starter since they aren't going to vote to weaken their association. Personally, if I was the Denfeld HS coach (or East, or the coach of any other HS), I would want kids who are going to go to other schools seperated out of the program ASAP so that I could connect with and focus on the kids who will end up in my school, rather than focus resources on kids who will never go to my school or play for my program.

If unsuccesful with my petition to MN Hockey I could then have the option of lawyering up. I bet I would win in court eventually.

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Fri May 01, 2015 11:43 am

SCBlueLiner wrote:Froggy, reading that I think these Marshall parents are barking up the wrong tree. If I were them I would petition Minnesota Hockey directly for permission to start the Duluth Marsall Youth Hockey Association and would put together a program that starts at mites and runs all the way through bantams.

Going through the the Duluth youth association is a non-starter since they aren't going to vote to weaken their association. Personally, if I was the Denfeld HS coach (or East, or the coach of any other HS), I would want kids who are going to go to other schools seperated out of the program ASAP so that I could connect with and focus on the kids who will end up in my school, rather than focus resources on kids who will never go to my school or play for my program.

If unsuccesful with my petition to MN Hockey I could then have the option of lawyering up. I bet I would win in court eventually.

I'm sure MN Hockey is probably their next step. I think it made sense to start with DAHA though, even though it was a risk. It almost worked. They actually approved it on the first vote until rescinding it two weeks later. With DAHA approval MN Hockey would have put it through I'm sure. Then it's done with little work and only the price of a lawyer sending a few letters.

Now they have a bigger challenge as they would have to present to MN Hockey after a formal vote against it by DAHA. But like you said, they can then sue MN Hockey and could eventually win. It's probably going to come down to how much of Daddy's money Mr. Krenzen is willing to spend.

What I really found interesting in the Marshall proposal is this:

B. Stauber questioned certain players from out of the area that were enrolled with DAHA and playing for the associations under DAHA’s umbrella.

I'm not sure exactly how to read this, but it sounds to me like he was trying to create some kind of leverage. As in, "You better approve this or I will blow the whistle on ineligible players in DAHA." This is the most comical thing I've ever seen as Mr. Stauber's kids play in Hermantown. They have more players from outside their Association boundaries playing there than any Association in the State. His partner in crime, Mr. Krenzen, had a kid on the Hermantown PeeWee AA team last year and he neither lived there or went to school there. You really gotta love these people.

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Fri May 01, 2015 12:37 pm

Pretty sure I remember reading here about the s*** fit with association hockey up there when private Marshall wanted to start a Tier 1 program. At that time the argument was parity and there were tons of examples of Marshall kids getting left off top Duluth teams and not getting invited/accepted to local clinics and camps. Now I have no idea if any of that kind of discrimination or bias against Marshall students was true but Marshall's attorney proved enough of it that MN hockey overruled the vote against it by the locals. It seems like making the argument that the same rules and standards re: youth hockey are equal for both publics and privates in MN means they will get to do this?? Is girls 10/12/14u to follow? Would be interesting to see the meeting minutes from that Tier 1 situation. Were you around for that Froggy?

Duluthguy · Post by **Duluthguy** » Fri May 01, 2015 12:55 pm

Froggy Richards wrote:
SCBlueLiner wrote:Froggy, reading that I think these Marshall parents are barking up the wrong tree. If I were them I would petition Minnesota Hockey directly for permission to start the Duluth Marsall Youth Hockey Association and would put together a program that starts at mites and runs all the way through bantams.

Going through the the Duluth youth association is a non-starter since they aren't going to vote to weaken their association. Personally, if I was the Denfeld HS coach (or East, or the coach of any other HS), I would want kids who are going to go to other schools seperated out of the program ASAP so that I could connect with and focus on the kids who will end up in my school, rather than focus resources on kids who will never go to my school or play for my program.

If unsuccesful with my petition to MN Hockey I could then have the option of lawyering up. I bet I would win in court eventually.
I'm sure MN Hockey is probably their next step. I think it made sense to start with DAHA though, even though it was a risk. It almost worked. They actually approved it on the first vote until rescinding it two weeks later. With DAHA approval MN Hockey would have put it through I'm sure. Then it's done with little work and only the price of a lawyer sending a few letters.

Now they have a bigger challenge as they would have to present to MN Hockey after a formal vote against it by DAHA. But like you said, they can then sue MN Hockey and could eventually win. It's probably going to come down to how much of Daddy's money Mr. Krenzen is willing to spend.

What I really found interesting in the Marshall proposal is this:

B. Stauber questioned certain players from out of the area that were enrolled with DAHA and playing for the associations under DAHA’s umbrella.

I'm not sure exactly how to read this, but it sounds to me like he was trying to create some kind of leverage. As in, "You better approve this or I will blow the whistle on ineligible players in DAHA." This is the most comical thing I've ever seen as Mr. Stauber's kids play in Hermantown. They have more players from outside their Association boundaries playing there than any Association in the State. His partner in crime, Mr. Krenzen, had a kid on the Hermantown PeeWee AA team last year and he neither lived there or went to school there. You really gotta love these people.

Froggy: I think you have your Staubers mixed up. "B. Stauber" refers to Bill Stauber. He lives in Duluth and his kids have always been Piedmont/Denfeld players, with the oldest going to Marshall this past season. You're thinking of Bill's brother Pete--mentioned earlier in the thread. He lives in Hermantown where his kids have played at the youth levels and also transferred to Marshall this past season.

SCBlueLiner · Post by **SCBlueLiner** » Fri May 01, 2015 1:28 pm

Here's the quote I don't quite understand:

Kevin Smalley spoke on behalf of Denfeld HS hockey – it will have an overall effect on the Denfeld program into the future; the HS program is not failing now but if this is allowed, going forward may be different.

I just don't understand how the HS program could fail. I mean, those kids that are going to Marshall from the Denfeld program were never yours anyways. If anything they were taking roster spots of kids that you really should have been focusing on during their youth hockey years.

Look, if I am the HS coach, or the AD, or just a die hard alumn and booster of the HS program, I would not want private school (or any other school) kids in the Denfeld system clogging it up and wasting resources. I'd want to focus on the players that I know will end up playing for Denfeld HS someday. Maybe this thought process is why you see me advocating throughout this thread for the vertical integration of youth hockey associations and them being direct feeder systems to the high schools. That goes for public and private. I just think you would then see a real emphasis on recruitment, retention, and development. Not that associations do a bad job now, just that I think you would see the efforts go into hyper-drive in a good way.

And for those who are advocates that association and high schools are seperate and it should be left that way, I hear your point and understand where you are coming from. My counterpoint is that MN Hockey opened Pandora's Box when they started AA hockey at PW and BT that aligned with the association's HS program. MN Hockey was the one who made that link, I am just advocating that link goes full blown. Maybe that would counter the tide of player transfers or leaving to go Tier 1, or leaving HS early. Maybe the mercenary attitude is tempered a bit and the pride is restored in playing for your school by lacing the skates up and donning the school colors from the time you are 8 yrs old on. Maybe it gives incentive for the high schools to take ownership of their feeder schools, and therefore their feeder association and grow and develop those programs.

SCBlueLiner · Post by **SCBlueLiner** » Fri May 01, 2015 1:29 pm

Double post.

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Fri May 01, 2015 1:29 pm

Duluthguy wrote:
Froggy Richards wrote:
SCBlueLiner wrote:Froggy, reading that I think these Marshall parents are barking up the wrong tree. If I were them I would petition Minnesota Hockey directly for permission to start the Duluth Marsall Youth Hockey Association and would put together a program that starts at mites and runs all the way through bantams.

Going through the the Duluth youth association is a non-starter since they aren't going to vote to weaken their association. Personally, if I was the Denfeld HS coach (or East, or the coach of any other HS), I would want kids who are going to go to other schools seperated out of the program ASAP so that I could connect with and focus on the kids who will end up in my school, rather than focus resources on kids who will never go to my school or play for my program.

If unsuccesful with my petition to MN Hockey I could then have the option of lawyering up. I bet I would win in court eventually.
I'm sure MN Hockey is probably their next step. I think it made sense to start with DAHA though, even though it was a risk. It almost worked. They actually approved it on the first vote until rescinding it two weeks later. With DAHA approval MN Hockey would have put it through I'm sure. Then it's done with little work and only the price of a lawyer sending a few letters.

Now they have a bigger challenge as they would have to present to MN Hockey after a formal vote against it by DAHA. But like you said, they can then sue MN Hockey and could eventually win. It's probably going to come down to how much of Daddy's money Mr. Krenzen is willing to spend.

What I really found interesting in the Marshall proposal is this:

B. Stauber questioned certain players from out of the area that were enrolled with DAHA and playing for the associations under DAHA’s umbrella.

I'm not sure exactly how to read this, but it sounds to me like he was trying to create some kind of leverage. As in, "You better approve this or I will blow the whistle on ineligible players in DAHA." This is the most comical thing I've ever seen as Mr. Stauber's kids play in Hermantown. They have more players from outside their Association boundaries playing there than any Association in the State. His partner in crime, Mr. Krenzen, had a kid on the Hermantown PeeWee AA team last year and he neither lived there or went to school there. You really gotta love these people.

Froggy: I think you have your Staubers mixed up. "B. Stauber" refers to Bill Stauber. He lives in Duluth and his kids have always been Piedmont/Denfeld players, with the oldest going to Marshall this past season. You're thinking of Bill's brother Pete--mentioned earlier in the thread. He lives in Hermantown where his kids have played at the youth levels and also transferred to Marshall this past season.

Yes, my mistake, thank you. I posted the meeting minutes from yesterday regarding Pete and didn't register the B before the name today.