ESPN‘S OUTSIDE THE LINES

SCBlueLiner · Post by **SCBlueLiner** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:20 pm

Concussions come from the brain slamming into the skull. No helmet is going to prevent that from happening. In the days prior to helmets (some of us were around during this transition period) players started putting helmets on their head to protect from taking a puck to the dome. Then the kids started wearing facemasks to prevent pucks and sticks from carving their faces up. Now helmets are being asked to do something more than they were intended to do.

I see where all this is headed, the elimination of checking from hockey. The thought process will be that it will make the game safer. The reality is that any sport you play that involves people moving around at a rapid pace in a confined area, somebody is going to end up running into somebody else and gettting hurt. Concussions are an issue in soccer, a non-contact sport. Basketball players can suffer concussions by coming down and slamming their head on the floor, non-contact sport. A player can suffer a concussion right now as a Mite, Squirt, or PeeWee, non-contact levels. The reality is that sufffering an injury is a risk involved in playing any sport. If you don't want to take the risk than don't play the sport, however, the benefits you receive from the sport, both physical and social, far outweigh any risk. You're probably just as likely to get injured in a car accident, or falling off the jungle gym, as you are suffering a concussion playing hockey. I prefer to not live my life in a cocoon.

I played hockey through high school, about 13 years of my life. I played football through college, about 10 years. The sports don't compare. Football is a much more physical sport, it's a collision sport. The goals of each sport are different. While hockey is a contact sport it's primary purpose is not the physical domination of the opponent on every single play. The two shouldn't even be compared here and the two pieces of head equipment shouldn't even be compared.

nahc · Post by **nahc** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:48 pm

Great post Blueliner.......!

nahc · Post by **nahc** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:53 pm

Froggy: From one of your previous posts......

"So his job on almost EVERY SINGLE PLAY was to crash through the line as fast as he could and take on the Middle Linebacker head on. Not just in games but in practice too, over and over and over again. How could he and that LB possibly avoid concussions"

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:59 pm

nahc wrote:Froggy: From one of your previous posts......

"So his job on almost EVERY SINGLE PLAY was to crash through the line as fast as he could and take on the Middle Linebacker head on. Not just in games but in practice too, over and over and over again. How could he and that LB possibly avoid concussions"

Yes, that's what I said. "Head on" is a figure of speech, like a "head on" collision on the highway. I didn't say anything about "head to head" contact. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:09 pm

SCBlueLiner wrote: I played hockey through high school, about 13 years of my life. I played football through college, about 10 years. The sports don't compare. Football is a much more physical sport, it's a collision sport. The goals of each sport are different. While hockey is a contact sport it's primary purpose is not the physical domination of the opponent on every single play. The two shouldn't even be compared here and the two pieces of head equipment shouldn't even be compared.

Nobody compared the two sports other than me saying pretty much exactly what you just said. Yes, Football is a game of collisions on every play by definition. On the other hand, it's possible for a good hockey player to play an entire game and not get hit. I pointed this out in response to someone who said he thought the injury risk was greater in Hockey.

shakey · Post by **shakey** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:23 pm

USAH weighs in...

http://www.usahockey.com/news_article/s ... _id=752796

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:26 pm

Has anybody tried to buy a lacrosse helmet this year?

nahc · Post by **nahc** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:21 pm

One last thought on this topic. I would guess the most accurate information concerning "whiplash" type of injuries causing concussions would be from car accidents. Think about it....... the people are strapped into a vehicle and when the car stops abruptly in an accident the seat belt prevents most all of body from moving forward accept for the head. One would think that almost anyone in a car accident going over 30mph would have a concussion if the whiplash theory is correct. I have seen 0 evidence that this is the case.... so much for that theory........

bemused · Post by **bemused** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:30 pm

shakey wrote:USAH weighs in...

http://www.usahockey.com/news_article/s ... _id=752796

Surprised the good Doctor was able to get the rebuttal out this quickly..Typing with one hand while the other one covered his ass...

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:48 pm

nahc wrote:One last thought on this topic. I would guess the most accurate information concerning "whiplash" type of injuries causing concussions would be from car accidents. Think about it....... the people are strapped into a vehicle and when the car stops abruptly in an accident the seat belt prevents most all of body from moving forward accept for the head. One would think that almost anyone in a car accident going over 30mph would have a concussion if the whiplash theory is correct. I have seen 0 evidence that this is the case.... so much for that theory........

It's not real hard to find, It's accepted Science by the Medical Community and a Google search will give you enough results to keep you reading for months. Here is an article that is pretty on point. You can read the whole article at the link below, but here are some highlighted points:

http://www.edmonds-chiropractic.com/pai ... -syndrome/

Post-Concussion Syndrome
A Craniocerebral Car Accident Injury

A traumatic brain injury often occurs due to the sudden acceleration/deceleration of the brain within the skull (whiplash from car accident). A rotational force makes matters far worse as it rapidly twists the brain. This commonly occurs in a rear-end car crash when the driver’s head is turned left or right. Motor vehicle injuries tend to cause focal contusions (bruises) with potential bleeding of brain tissue with associated damage to nerve fibers and junctions throughout the brain.

A concussion is an alteration of mental status due to biomechnical forces affecting the brain. A concussion may or may not cause loss of consciousness. In motor vehicle accidents, concussion can occur without an actual blow to the head. Instead, concussion occurs when the vehicle starts or stops suddenly.

The Seatbelt’s Role in the Biomechanical Analysis

While the seat belt may have prevented your head from being slammed into the windshield, it may actually serve to increase the acceleration on the brain. The reason is that it converts largely linear force to centrifugal force, which involves greater acceleration and deceleration, such as is done with a whip, a fishing rod, a baseball bat.

It’s important to realize that no actual blow or fall need be suffered by the head to cause moderate or even severe brain damage. It is the change in velocity —— either acceleration or deceleration —— with a rotational rather than solely axial element, that leads to damage: the surface of the head need never contact any hard object or surface.

In either the deceleration or acceleration mode, the skull and brain cannot change their velocities simultaneously, and the brain will speed up or slow down only by virtue of the restraint provided by the dural septa and the configuration of the interior of the skull.

A concussion most frequently relates to different forces which occur when the head is mobile. What happens at impact is that the head is mobile and is thrown forward, backward, or to the side. More specifically, the skull is thrown forward, but the brain tends to lag behind because of inertia. The head pivots at the neck; thus, when the head is suddenly thrown forward, the maximum effect of the inertia (or resistance) is at the point between the skull and the cortex where the forces are greatest.

almostashappy · Post by **almostashappy** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:59 pm

Froggy Richards wrote: It's not real hard to find, It's accepted Science by the Medical Community and a Google search will give you enough results to keep you reading for months.

Should I be surprised that this kind of Google search produces pages of links to personal injury attorney websites?

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:30 pm

nahc wrote:Froggy, you just supported my comments concerning head to head contact in football causing concussions, ie your fullback/linebacker. Perfect example of what I said, ie repeated head to head contact and concussions causing these medical problems, NOT body to body contact. I've spoken to expert physicians in their field concerning sports injuries including concussions which is far differant than speculation from a given expert in the field but possibly no real sports medicine experience. I am not dissing the doc you are referencing since am sure he/she is a very well respected physician. The whiplash you describe, ie the body coming to a total stop with the head continuing forward, is not the vast majority of physical hits that occur in either football or hockey. In football the head is usually down and is somewhat of a glancing blow. In hockey, its usually the same thing in open ice, ie thte skate has his head down when contacted by the defender. Again, there is usually not an abrubt stoppage in the offensive players forward movement, ie they are not stopped and flattened onto their back by the hit.......

I'll bet there are tens of thousands more kids that play football in the U.S. than hockey therefore there will be, numbers wise, more injuries. In fact there are more D1 football players at the University of MN than all D1 hockey teams in the state of MN combined. Also if you check out the deaths that have occurred for footballs players the past couple of years for sure, most were caused by undiagnosed medical conditions. They were NOT caused by hits on the field, etc..

I don't want to stray to far off the topic but wanted to provide some feedback on a sport, ie football, that is NO MORE dangerous to play than any other sport out there........ except maybe debate......

I agree on what you said about football hits, as far as lineman and linebackers but what you described for hockey players is totally inaccurate. The "head down" player getting hit in open ice rarely gets his actual head hit but further those often lead to concussions so the abrupt stopping is exactly what leads to the concussion. That said that is a rare hit in hockey, most are hits along the boards either from the side or from behind where that exact abrupt stop and whiplash thing happens time and again.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:37 pm

SCBlueLiner wrote:Concussions come from the brain slamming into the skull. No helmet is going to prevent that from happening. In the days prior to helmets (some of us were around during this transition period) players started putting helmets on their head to protect from taking a puck to the dome. Then the kids started wearing facemasks to prevent pucks and sticks from carving their faces up. Now helmets are being asked to do something more than they were intended to do.

I see where all this is headed, the elimination of checking from hockey. The thought process will be that it will make the game safer. The reality is that any sport you play that involves people moving around at a rapid pace in a confined area, somebody is going to end up running into somebody else and gettting hurt. Concussions are an issue in soccer, a non-contact sport. Basketball players can suffer concussions by coming down and slamming their head on the floor, non-contact sport. A player can suffer a concussion right now as a Mite, Squirt, or PeeWee, non-contact levels. The reality is that sufffering an injury is a risk involved in playing any sport. If you don't want to take the risk than don't play the sport, however, the benefits you receive from the sport, both physical and social, far outweigh any risk. You're probably just as likely to get injured in a car accident, or falling off the jungle gym, as you are suffering a concussion playing hockey. I prefer to not live my life in a cocoon.

I played hockey through high school, about 13 years of my life. I played football through college, about 10 years. The sports don't compare. Football is a much more physical sport, it's a collision sport. The goals of each sport are different. While hockey is a contact sport it's primary purpose is not the physical domination of the opponent on every single play. The two shouldn't even be compared here and the two pieces of head equipment shouldn't even be compared.

Excellent post.

nahc · Post by **nahc** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:19 pm

Froggy your post provides 0 scientific evidence of actual numbers concerning car accidents and concussions due to whiplash. A single article by a chiropractor does not cut the mustard. One needs to see info from THOUSANDS of car accidents and the resulting concussions that may or may not have occurred. Its not out there......... googling this type of information has shown that there is no LARGE trial that has provided info on concussions caused by whiplash. I have reviewed countless medical journal articles and there is a real difference between those peer reviewed articles and results compared to a LOT of the authors who just do not utilize scientific trial evidence to prove their points.

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:18 pm

nahc wrote:Froggy your post provides 0 scientific evidence of actual numbers concerning car accidents and concussions due to whiplash. A single article by a chiropractor does not cut the mustard. One needs to see info from THOUSANDS of car accidents and the resulting concussions that may or may not have occurred. Its not out there......... googling this type of information has shown that there is no LARGE trial that has provided info on concussions caused by whiplash. I have reviewed countless medical journal articles and there is a real difference between those peer reviewed articles and results compared to a LOT of the authors who just do not utilize scientific trial evidence to prove their points.

Cool, let me know what you find out.

warriors41 · Post by **warriors41** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:59 am

Froggy Richards wrote:
SCBlueLiner wrote: I played hockey through high school, about 13 years of my life. I played football through college, about 10 years. The sports don't compare. Football is a much more physical sport, it's a collision sport. The goals of each sport are different. While hockey is a contact sport it's primary purpose is not the physical domination of the opponent on every single play. The two shouldn't even be compared here and the two pieces of head equipment shouldn't even be compared.
Nobody compared the two sports other than me saying pretty much exactly what you just said. Yes, Football is a game of collisions on every play by definition. On the other hand, it's possible for a good hockey player to play an entire game and not get hit. I pointed this out in response to someone who said he thought the injury risk was greater in Hockey.

It is entirely possible for a good hockey player to avoid big hits. I'd say the same is probably true of a good RB or QB in football too though. When I was in high school I played against players who you could never line up for a big hit on the football field.

And there is one major problem I see with your notion that a good hockey player and avoid hits. It assumes that parents will know when their kid is only a few years old that they will be that type of player. Most hockey players start skating at 3. At the time most parents what sports they will allow their kids to play its too early to know what kind of athlete they have in the family. Unless they're the kind of parent who assumes their kid is destined for the NHL, but there aren't many of those right

One thing is certain, the way the games are played right now by today's standards, I don't think someone can say that hockey is safer than football in terms of safety from concussions. The numbers just aren't there to support it.

hammer99 · Post by **hammer99** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:30 pm

Very interesting to say the least. Anyone else remember the huge rush towards the supposed "concussion proof" M11 helmets a few years back? Turns out they're nothing special aside from the huge frontal design flaw that led to many players cutting their foreheads when taking a relatively standard check into the boards.

My understanding is that helmets can only do so much. While they can disperse linear forces to the head in order to reduce the amount of force the head receives, it is important to note that hardly any concussions are a result of linear forces. Concussions are almost always caused by a dramatic shift in head movement that are a result of events such as as smacking your helmet against the glass or being stopped dead in your tracks by a 200 lb defenseman. Helmets can do absolutely nothing to prevent the brain from smacking into the skull- which is what a concussion is.

This is not to say we should shy away from improving helmet technology. Nobody in their right mind would argue that we shouldn't do our best to lessen linear force absorbed by the head of a player. With that being said, don't go out buying a Warrior Krown 360 thinking you just saved your kid from the potential of suffering a concussion.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:53 pm

warriors41 wrote:
Froggy Richards wrote:
SCBlueLiner wrote: I played hockey through high school, about 13 years of my life. I played football through college, about 10 years. The sports don't compare. Football is a much more physical sport, it's a collision sport. The goals of each sport are different. While hockey is a contact sport it's primary purpose is not the physical domination of the opponent on every single play. The two shouldn't even be compared here and the two pieces of head equipment shouldn't even be compared.
Nobody compared the two sports other than me saying pretty much exactly what you just said. Yes, Football is a game of collisions on every play by definition. On the other hand, it's possible for a good hockey player to play an entire game and not get hit. I pointed this out in response to someone who said he thought the injury risk was greater in Hockey.

It is entirely possible for a good hockey player to avoid big hits. I'd say the same is probably true of a good RB or QB in football too though. When I was in high school I played against players who you could never line up for a big hit on the football field.

And there is one major problem I see with your notion that a good hockey player and avoid hits. It assumes that parents will know when their kid is only a few years old that they will be that type of player. Most hockey players start skating at 3. At the time most parents what sports they will allow their kids to play its too early to know what kind of athlete they have in the family. Unless they're the kind of parent who assumes their kid is destined for the NHL, but there aren't many of those right

One thing is certain, the way the games are played right now by today's standards, I don't think someone can say that hockey is safer than football in terms of safety from concussions. The numbers just aren't there to support it.

I agree that RB's and WR's can sometimes avoid big hits but considering the object of the sport I'd say RB's still receive a lot more frequent big hits than hockey players. I'd also say lineman are unable to avoid being hit and it's the continuous hits for them that are the bigger issue.

As for concusssion rates, actually numbers found right here in this thread support that reported concussions happen at a higher rate in football than hockey. I think 6.4 is a statistically significant amount higher than 5.6. This site says there is an even bigger gap between the sports http://www.headcasecompany.com/concussi ... ns_sports .

This article is of particular interest though because apparently they are finding that girls are suffering concussions at higher rates than boys, and of particular interest is the fact that girls are apparently suffering concussions in ice hockey at a higher rate than boys despite checking not being allowed in the girls sport. http://www.washingtonpost.com/postevery ... ims-girls/

And while I have zero scientific evidence or statistics to back this up, it is my own anecdotal opinion from my own experiences that football concussions are less likely to be reported than hockey concussions.

It is also my own anecdotal observation that while hockey is a dangerous contact sport the number of severe injuries appear to be more prevalent in football than hockey. Not that I haven't seen some horrendous injuries in hockey I just have seen more of them in football.

shakey · Post by **shakey** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:32 am

hammer99 wrote:Very interesting to say the least. Anyone else remember the huge rush towards the supposed "concussion proof" M11 helmets a few years back? Turns out they're nothing special aside from the huge frontal design flaw that led to many players cutting their foreheads when taking a relatively standard check into the boards.

My understanding is that helmets can only do so much. While they can disperse linear forces to the head in order to reduce the amount of force the head receives, it is important to note that hardly any concussions are a result of linear forces. Concussions are almost always caused by a dramatic shift in head movement that are a result of events such as as smacking your helmet against the glass or being stopped dead in your tracks by a 200 lb defenseman. Helmets can do absolutely nothing to prevent the brain from smacking into the skull- which is what a concussion is.

This is not to say we should shy away from improving helmet technology. Nobody in their right mind would argue that we shouldn't do our best to lessen linear force absorbed by the head of a player. With that being said, don't go out buying a Warrior Krown 360 thinking you just saved your kid from the potential of suffering a concussion.

almostashappy · Post by **almostashappy** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:16 am

shakey wrote:
hammer99 wrote: This is not to say we should shy away from improving helmet technology. Nobody in their right mind would argue that we shouldn't do our best to lessen linear force absorbed by the head of a player. With that being said, don't go out buying a Warrior Krown 360 thinking you just saved your kid from the potential of suffering a concussion.

Of course, the corollary advice is not to go out and buy Bauer's $270 Re-ACT 100 helmet thinking that the price buys your kid far more protection than Bauer's $35 helmet.

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:21 am

A few years ago I went to conference for work at Ohio State, one of the seminars was on concussions and I had an interest the subject matter both professionally and as a football official. When broken down by hours practiced/played Equestrian sports had the highest rates of concussions, ice hockey was second. This, at first, seemed a bit counter intuitive but upon review it makes sense...both have something in common; unprotected or unintentional falls. Impacts where you don't have time to brace or protect yourself have a higher rates of concussions. Even in football concussions happen at a greater rate for linemen than other positions, why? Not because they beat their heads into each other but because they get hit from places they don't expect and get fallen on. (there is a radio interview out there with Vikings center John Sullivan who goes on about this at length).

It's the hit to head or the impact from the ice/turf that you don't see coming that are the most dangerous after targeting. Football, at all levels, put in the defenseless player rule because of this, it is a point of emphasis, and it carries the harshest of penalties. Hockey put in a rule as well but it is only a minor penalty and rarely enforced. It's taken a couple of years but for the most part on high hits we no longer hear "it's football' or "let them play" anymore as most people have come to realize safety is paramount. Hockey still has a very long way to go in that regard.

One note on the data we were given......From the 9th grade on football is almost solely run at the high school level where data collection is relatively easy. Schools in many places are required to monitor, report, and treat concussions through a rigid protocol. Other sports (hockey) are run through other organizations like USA Hockey, AAU, or local youth sports associations that have no means to collect data other than self reporting and little or no desire to collect or report injury data.