Private School Trash talk thread

[Lazy Scout]

This debate is getting old and will go on until the end of time. Power house metro schools do not have to "recruit", they self recruit because little johnny wants to play for a great program and will find a way to go to a Edina or Eden Prairie, etc. . This year four superstar peewees moved into the Edina youth hockey system and took four spots on the top two A teams. These kids move in from mites-high school. Oh, don't forget the infamous Mickelson who tried to cheat the system but actually got caught. The Edina folk better stop selling houses to families with hockey players. The last I checked only one private is in the A tourney. Where is Totino, SPA, Providence Academy, Minnehaha Academy, Rochester Lourdes, Duluth Marshal, and Cathedral? Where are those superstar allstar private school teams? Where??? Where is AHA, Holy Family, Benilde??? Its okay for Edina to create an allstar team because its a free public school?

Stop whining and enjoy some great hockey with some great teams playing.

[WarmUpTheBus]

Here is an example of some real recruiting...

On a side note, Hurley (D) from STA played in the Dultuh eastside youth program and his family still resides their.

I think you are confusing recruiting with free will. Every student in every desk of every private school is "recruited". Private schools must fill those desks with tuition paying students to stay in business. Their target market is affluent families so it follows that they would use hockey to attract tuition paying students.

[pekyman]

Here is an example of some real recruiting...

On a side note, Hurley (D) from STA played in the Dultuh eastside youth program and his family still resides their.

I think you are confusing recruiting with free will. Every student in every desk of every private school is "recruited". Private schools must fill those desks with tuition paying students to stay in business. Their target market is affluent families so it follows that they would use hockey to attract tuition paying students.

Good for him. I'm glad there are schools like STA, Marshall, etc where those that want to can have an alternative to the public schools. I think it's a great as long as they play AA.

[Lazy Scout]

Hurley's family still resides in Duluth? Wow, I wonder how that 5 hour round trip commute is for school.

[hermantownfan]

Private Schools are sick

[Proctor Hockey]

This argument has always really baffled me. I don't see how private schools have any more of an advantage of "recruiting" than the majority of public schools in the state. Any public school with open enrollment (which is the vast majority of the schools in the state) can also try to get players from outside of their district to come play for them. If anything, I think the private schools would be disadvantaged here because the parents need to pay tuition now rather than have their kids go to school for free. I have always felt that the biggest reason why people dislike private schools so much is because the families tend to have a lot of money and they just don't want to outright say that so they complain about other things instead. Just my opinion on this topic, feel free to try to open my eyes though.

You are partially correct. There are only a handful of Public Schools that get a substantial number of players through open-enrollment. Like Rainier said, you have to have a large population base nearby. This really only fits Twin Cities Metro Public Schools, Duluth Public Schools and Hermantown. Possibly Moorhead too but I have no idea if they pull in Fargo kids or not. All of those schools are AA except for Hermantown and Denfeld. Denfeld loses more players to open-enrollment then they gain, so really, Hermantown is the only school that fits your description. If and when Hermantown and Breck ever see the light, then you have a pretty even playing field in Class A. Also, some of the scrutiny on privates is that the Private School recruits are more public as they usually happen later in a kid's career when more people know about them. In Hermantown for example, some of the kids open-enroll in PeeWees but most of them are open-enrolling when they're Mites and Squirts and not many people know about them. The longer they are there, the better chance they have of flying under the radar and exorcising the "Open-Enrollee" label. Parents are well aware of this.

Open enrollment in Hermantown is CLOSED and has been for years. Do you know how many open enroll kids are on the current HS Varsity team? I think it's 2 and one of them lives much closer to Hermantown and has never went to school or played in Proctor. Also, Hermantown actually LOST 3 top kids to Marshall this year.

As far as the open enroll kids at lower level, this all happened when they closed Duluth Central and families along the Arrowhead corridor realized that Hermantown was much closed than sending their kids down the hill to Denfeld. I know 2 families that live off the Arrowhead road with a total of 9 kids that all open enrolled into Hermantown. Guess what, none of them play hockey. Most of these families would not have moved if Central HS would have stayed open. After the closure of Central, Hermantown filled up. I have no idea how many open enroll kids are at the lower levels or how many play hockey, but I do not blame them for doing what they did. To say that they are all top players is just false. Most were leaving a bad situation rather than going to a good one and the majorities were not hockey players.

As far as Proctor, Duluth is not that far from you; neither is Hermantown. It is not any of these schools/communities faults that kids choose to leave Proctor. You need to do something to get kids/families to want to stay and play there. Bashing other successful programs is not going to help. It is disappointing to me that with all the resources that Proctor has, they cannot develop a more competitive program. Take one step into your arena and it’s not hard to see why. I don’t think it would take too much and I will help you out. You need to start by doing something about your arena. There doesn’t seem to be much pride in that building which reflects on your program.

This is a very inaccurate and unfair post. You obviously don't know anyone involved with Proctor Hockey. I moved to Proctor ten years ago and there is nowhere I would rather have my son play Youth Hockey. Some of the best people I've met in my life are in Proctor. The people involved with Proctor Hockey are the most genuine, committed, down to earth, hard working, would do anything for their kids people that you would find anywhere. There is nothing wrong with Proctor Hockey. Our board is excellent, we have fantastic coaching and the Parents and Kids get along like family. A lot of talent has been developed in Proctor. Some of it is still here and some are displaying it elsewhere. If you put together a High School team this year of the kids who are here and the kids who have left, my guess would be that they are the 5A representative playing against Hermantown in the State Tournament tomorrow. That would be a game for the ages! Two next door neighbors from the North playing each other at the X. I would love to have seen it. Proctor-Hermantown used to be one of the best rivalries in the State for hockey. Proctor usually came out on top all the way through the 90's. They won 3rd place in state in 97. Then the balance of power in the area began to change. These things tend to go in cycles and there is no reason Proctor can't be a consistent winner again.

Do we have challenges? Yes. We are a small Association surrounded by Huge Associations. Have we lost some kids to other Associations? Yes. People move around a lot more than they used to and parents aren't afraid to send their kid somewhere else at the drop of a hat if they think it's a better opportunity, real or imagined. Loyalty doesn't exist like it did when I played. It was unheard of to want to leave your Association and go to a rival back then, win lose or draw. You wanted to stay with your friends that you've known your whole life and go through those experiences with them, regardless of the outcome. I agree that we need to find a way to keep our kids at home and we're doing everything we can to accomplish that.

Do we need a new Arena? Yes. But to say we have no pride in it is ludicrous and shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Our kids in Proctor love our Arena and take an immense amount of pride in it. My son is on record many times as saying he hopes we don't get a new one because he likes the one we have. It has a great sheet of ice, nice boards, plexi glass and a roof over it. In his mind it's the Taj Mahal. How many Mites around the State get to play every home game indoors? Ours do. How many kids wake up to find out school is cancelled because of a snow day and are ecstatic, not because they get a day off to play video games, but because they know one of the many people with keys will be there at 8:00 am to open the Arena for them and they can play hockey with their buddies for 7 hours until the High School team starts practice? After that, they can head over to the shooting area and skate or shoot on the synthetic ice. This happened 7-8 times last year when we had a record number of snow days in Proctor. One of the many advantages to being a small Association with your own arena. Try to find open hockey at any other arena in the area on these days or during Christmas break. I wish you luck. If you have suggestions for how to improve our current Arena then please share them. Maybe it's something we haven't thought of. It's an old building and it wasn't much to start with. There is only so much we can do to it. I'd say we've done an incredible job with what we have.

Yes, we need a new Arena, but not because of the kids. We need it for the Parents. Not just our own, but for the ones in other Associations as well so they want to schedule more games there and visit more often. Parents like the brand new, state of the art buildings. The kids don't care. Maybe we could all learn something from them.

The good news is it's on the way. My prediction is that we have a new Arena in 3-5 years, hopefully closer to 3. There are people working very hard on this and the stars are starting to align. This won't solve all of our issues overnight but it could be the big shot in the arm that we need. And just maybe, some of those Parents who would otherwise send their kid somewhere else will keep them here and it will have a snowball affect. We know the perception of our program from the outside isn't always great. We hear about it. But those are all people who haven't lived here and have no idea what it's like to play here. I would encourage anyone who has questions about Proctor Hockey to ask somebody who actually lives there and is involved with the Program. The state of Hockey in Proctor is strong, and to repeat, there is nowhere I would rather be.

[Bluewhitefan]

Fact is many players have left schools and transferred and got around the rules. I know first hand about these and so does Edina, for sure.

Please enlighten us with examples of your first hand knowledge. Give us concrete examples of situations in which kids played for Edina by skirting the rules. There was one this year that perhaps nobody would have even known about if not for the Edina AD declaring him ineligible. Do you really think that Edina needs to risk skirting the rules and jeopardize potential state championships? You may not like the fact that crazy families want to move there to play hockey, but please enough with the "I know first hand..." I call BS.

[WarmUpTheBus]

Fact is many players have left schools and transferred and got around the rules. I know first hand about these and so does Edina, for sure.

Please enlighten us with examples of your first hand knowledge. Give us concrete examples of situations in which kids played for Edina by skirting the rules. There was one this year that perhaps nobody would have even known about if not for the Edina AD declaring him ineligible. Do you really think that Edina needs to risk skirting the rules and jeopardize potential state championships? You may not like the fact that crazy families want to move there to play hockey, but please enough with the "I know first hand..." I call BS.

Edina varsity has one defenseman who lives in Shakopee.

[pekyman]

You are partially correct. There are only a handful of Public Schools that get a substantial number of players through open-enrollment. Like Rainier said, you have to have a large population base nearby. This really only fits Twin Cities Metro Public Schools, Duluth Public Schools and Hermantown. Possibly Moorhead too but I have no idea if they pull in Fargo kids or not. All of those schools are AA except for Hermantown and Denfeld. Denfeld loses more players to open-enrollment then they gain, so really, Hermantown is the only school that fits your description. If and when Hermantown and Breck ever see the light, then you have a pretty even playing field in Class A. Also, some of the scrutiny on privates is that the Private School recruits are more public as they usually happen later in a kid's career when more people know about them. In Hermantown for example, some of the kids open-enroll in PeeWees but most of them are open-enrolling when they're Mites and Squirts and not many people know about them. The longer they are there, the better chance they have of flying under the radar and exorcising the "Open-Enrollee" label. Parents are well aware of this.

Open enrollment in Hermantown is CLOSED and has been for years. Do you know how many open enroll kids are on the current HS Varsity team? I think it's 2 and one of them lives much closer to Hermantown and has never went to school or played in Proctor. Also, Hermantown actually LOST 3 top kids to Marshall this year.

As far as the open enroll kids at lower level, this all happened when they closed Duluth Central and families along the Arrowhead corridor realized that Hermantown was much closed than sending their kids down the hill to Denfeld. I know 2 families that live off the Arrowhead road with a total of 9 kids that all open enrolled into Hermantown. Guess what, none of them play hockey. Most of these families would not have moved if Central HS would have stayed open. After the closure of Central, Hermantown filled up. I have no idea how many open enroll kids are at the lower levels or how many play hockey, but I do not blame them for doing what they did. To say that they are all top players is just false. Most were leaving a bad situation rather than going to a good one and the majorities were not hockey players.

As far as Proctor, Duluth is not that far from you; neither is Hermantown. It is not any of these schools/communities faults that kids choose to leave Proctor. You need to do something to get kids/families to want to stay and play there. Bashing other successful programs is not going to help. It is disappointing to me that with all the resources that Proctor has, they cannot develop a more competitive program. Take one step into your arena and it’s not hard to see why. I don’t think it would take too much and I will help you out. You need to start by doing something about your arena. There doesn’t seem to be much pride in that building which reflects on your program.

This is a very inaccurate and unfair post. You obviously don't know anyone involved with Proctor Hockey. I moved to Proctor ten years ago and there is nowhere I would rather have my son play Youth Hockey. Some of the best people I've met in my life are in Proctor. The people involved with Proctor Hockey are the most genuine, committed, down to earth, hard working, would do anything for their kids people that you would find anywhere. There is nothing wrong with Proctor Hockey. Our board is excellent, we have fantastic coaching and the Parents and Kids get along like family. A lot of talent has been developed in Proctor. Some of it is still here and some are displaying it elsewhere. If you put together a High School team this year of the kids who are here and the kids who have left, my guess would be that they are the 5A representative playing against Hermantown in the State Tournament tomorrow. That would be a game for the ages! Two next door neighbors from the North playing each other at the X. I would love to have seen it. Proctor-Hermantown used to be one of the best rivalries in the State for hockey. Proctor usually came out on top all the way through the 90's. They won 3rd place in state in 97. Then the balance of power in the area began to change. These things tend to go in cycles and there is no reason Proctor can't be a consistent winner again.

Do we have challenges? Yes. We are a small Association surrounded by Huge Associations. Have we lost some kids to other Associations? Yes. People move around a lot more than they used to and parents aren't afraid to send their kid somewhere else at the drop of a hat if they think it's a better opportunity, real or imagined. Loyalty doesn't exist like it did when I played. It was unheard of to want to leave your Association and go to a rival back then, win lose or draw. You wanted to stay with your friends that you've known your whole life and go through those experiences with them, regardless of the outcome. I agree that we need to find a way to keep our kids at home and we're doing everything we can to accomplish that.

Do we need a new Arena? Yes. But to say we have no pride in it is ludicrous and shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Our kids in Proctor love our Arena and take an immense amount of pride in it. My son is on record many times as saying he hopes we don't get a new one because he likes the one we have. It has a great sheet of ice, nice boards, plexi glass and a roof over it. In his mind it's the Taj Mahal. How many Mites around the State get to play every home game indoors? Ours do. How many kids wake up to find out school is cancelled because of a snow day and are ecstatic, not because they get a day off to play video games, but because they know one of the many people with keys will be there at 8:00 am to open the Arena for them and they can play hockey with their buddies for 7 hours until the High School team starts practice? After that, they can head over to the shooting area and skate or shoot on the synthetic ice. This happened 7-8 times last year when we had a record number of snow days in Proctor. One of the many advantages to being a small Association with your own arena. Try to find open hockey at any other arena in the area on these days or during Christmas break. I wish you luck. If you have suggestions for how to improve our current Arena then please share them. Maybe it's something we haven't thought of. It's an old building and it wasn't much to start with. There is only so much we can do to it. I'd say we've done an incredible job with what we have.

Yes, we need a new Arena, but not because of the kids. We need it for the Parents. Not just our own, but for the ones in other Associations as well so they want to schedule more games there and visit more often. Parents like the brand new, state of the art buildings. The kids don't care. Maybe we could all learn something from them.

The good news is it's on the way. My prediction is that we have a new Arena in 3-5 years, hopefully closer to 3. There are people working very hard on this and the stars are starting to align. This won't solve all of our issues overnight but it could be the big shot in the arm that we need. And just maybe, some of those Parents who would otherwise send their kid somewhere else will keep them here and it will have a snowball affect. We know the perception of our program from the outside isn't always great. We hear about it. But those are all people who haven't lived here and have no idea what it's like to play here. I would encourage anyone who has questions about Proctor Hockey to ask somebody who actually lives there and is involved with the Program. The state of Hockey in Proctor is strong, and to repeat, there is nowhere I would rather be.

Great post! I am sorry if I offended. I did not mean to. Froggy just gets me going. Wish nothing but the best for Proctor and it sounds like your going in the right direction.

[green4]

Where is AHA, Holy Family, Benilde??? Its okay for Edina to create an allstar team because its a free public school?

Does Edina really create an allstar team? They lose about as much as they get. You mention AHA, whose best player, Barnes, is from Edina. Benilde is basically half an Edina youth team. Three of their four captains are from Edina (Kaske, Newhouse, Jungels). They have at least 5 Edina guys on this years team and that is a pretty constant amount. If you include the kids from Edina that go to STA, the Hornets don't really benefit as much as people think.

And to warmupthebuses I don't think any Varsity D is currently living in Shakopee. Maybe he moved, but that seems unlikely to me. I don't know many of the younger players, however so it could be possible.

[Bluewhitefan]

Edina varsity has one defenseman who lives in Shakopee.

I think it's actually Savage. That said, he open enrolled to Edina schools as a PW I believe. Nothing illegal, no recruiting - Unless Giles has someone going after 7th graders. You may not like that kids move or open-enroll to Edina to play hockey, and I probably even agree, but as long as they do it by 9th grade it's their choice. I can assure you, there are families of kids down at JV or Junior Gold that wish it would stop - but it's the world we live in.

[WarmUpTheBus]

Where is AHA, Holy Family, Benilde??? Its okay for Edina to create an allstar team because its a free public school?

Does Edina really create an allstar team? They lose about as much as they get. You mention AHA, whose best player, Barnes, is from Edina. Benilde is basically half an Edina youth team. Three of their four captains are from Edina (Kaske, Newhouse, Jungels). They have at least 5 Edina guys on this years team and that is a pretty constant amount. If you include the kids from Edina that go to STA, the Hornets don't really benefit as much as people think.

And to warmupthebuses I don't think any Varsity D is currently living in Shakopee. Maybe he moved, but that seems unlikely to me. I don't know many of the younger players, however so it could be possible.

[pondhockeywizard]

I watched Duluth Denfeld and Duluth Marshall play this year. Public vs Private.

Guy next to me pointed out probably 6 or 7 players on Denfeld's roster were from Hermantown, Duluth Marshall, Cloquet, Superior WI, Alaska, even a kid from Sweden. Couldn't help but wonder which was the private.

[green4]

Where is AHA, Holy Family, Benilde??? Its okay for Edina to create an allstar team because its a free public school?

Does Edina really create an allstar team? They lose about as much as they get. You mention AHA, whose best player, Barnes, is from Edina. Benilde is basically half an Edina youth team. Three of their four captains are from Edina (Kaske, Newhouse, Jungels). They have at least 5 Edina guys on this years team and that is a pretty constant amount. If you include the kids from Edina that go to STA, the Hornets don't really benefit as much as people think.

And to warmupthebuses I don't think any Varsity D is currently living in Shakopee. Maybe he moved, but that seems unlikely to me. I don't know many of the younger players, however so it could be possible.

I guess bluewhitefan knows who you are talking about. I am unsure what you meant by the shock face or what you are implying. All i meant by my comment about not knowing the underclassmen is that I don't watch much youth hockey so I am unsure who moves in or where they come from.
I know most of the seniors since I attended high school with them and some had siblings in my grade.

[rainier]

I watched Duluth Denfeld and Duluth Marshall play this year. Public vs Private.

Guy next to me pointed out probably 6 or 7 players on Denfeld's roster were from Hermantown, Duluth Marshall, Cloquet, Superior WI, Alaska, even a kid from Sweden. Couldn't help but wonder which was the private.

Denfeld has indeed become the destination for disgruntled players in the Duluth area.

-The kid from Marshall was originally a Denfeld kid at youth levels.
-The Hermantown kid wouldn't have made the Hermantown team.
-The Cloquet kid left there due to a parent-hates-coach scenario, and the kid played JV as a junior to qualify.
-The kid from Sweden is just an exchange student.
-No idea about the Superior or Alaska kid.

I get what you mean about Denfeld seeming like a private school, but they at least have their own youth association. It's just too bad they seem to lose much of the talent they do produce. Having Marshall, Hermantown, and East all in the same town makes it tough on them.

[green4]

I watched Duluth Denfeld and Duluth Marshall play this year. Public vs Private.

Guy next to me pointed out probably 6 or 7 players on Denfeld's roster were from Hermantown, Duluth Marshall, Cloquet, Superior WI, Alaska, even a kid from Sweden. Couldn't help but wonder which was the private.

Denfeld has indeed become the destination for disgruntled players in the Duluth area.

-The kid from Marshall was originally a Denfeld kid at youth levels.
-The Hermantown kid wouldn't have made the Hermantown team.
-The Cloquet kid left there due to a parent-hates-coach scenario, and the kid played JV as a junior to qualify.
-The kid from Sweden is just an exchange student.
-No idea about the Superior or Alaska kid.

I get what you mean about Denfeld seeming like a private school, but they at least have their own youth association. It's just too bad they seem to lose much of the talent they do produce. Having Marshall, Hermantown, and East all in the same town makes it tough on them.

Two kids from Edina recently played there after getting cut

[Traxler]

I watched Duluth Denfeld and Duluth Marshall play this year. Public vs Private.

Guy next to me pointed out probably 6 or 7 players on Denfeld's roster were from Hermantown, Duluth Marshall, Cloquet, Superior WI, Alaska, even a kid from Sweden. Couldn't help but wonder which was the private.

I really laugh at the thought that someone is "from" Duluth Marshall. That's a good one.

[C_R]

... The people involved with Proctor Hockey are the most genuine, committed, down to earth, hard working, would do anything for their kids people that you would find anywhere. There is nothing wrong with Proctor Hockey. ...

Do we need a new Arena? Yes. But to say we have no pride in it is ludicrous and shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Our kids in Proctor love our Arena and take an immense amount of pride in it. ... The state of Hockey in Proctor is strong, and to repeat, there is nowhere I would rather be.

Completely agree PH. Your Association put on a very nice 12UA Regional Tournament this weekend. Hospitality second to none, and your hard working volunteers had the arena and the ice in flawless condition. To top it off, my son had a great time playing pickup hockey on the outdoor rink with the local kids - rather than watch his sister and her teammates win a Region Championship. Proctor is indeed in good hands and you are rightly proud.

[Just Checking]

He did not open enroll, he lives in Hermatown in an actual house I think. You don't like that either? Move to China then.

That's all you gotz?

I think the kids moved to Hermantown with Mom, and Dad still lives in Hibbing and teaches there. So he does live in Hermantown, so it isn't open-enrolling. The kid moved to Hermantown, they have to take him in at the school.

Tough break for Hibbing. Gotz and his younger brother are both fine players that would have been part of some excellent Hibbing teams the next few years. What I hear is that Dad didn't get the head coach job in Hibbing two years ago and doesn't see eye-to-eye with the guy that got it, so he sent the fam to Hermantown.

If this is true then he would be an illegal transfer. The entire family has to move in order for a player to be eligible. His Dad still teaches in Hibbing so he must commute every day.

I believe Froggy is correct.
They need to have sold the home in Hibbing, purchased a new home or be renting and moved residence completely, address change etc.

[pekyman]

I think the kids moved to Hermantown with Mom, and Dad still lives in Hibbing and teaches there. So he does live in Hermantown, so it isn't open-enrolling. The kid moved to Hermantown, they have to take him in at the school.

Tough break for Hibbing. Gotz and his younger brother are both fine players that would have been part of some excellent Hibbing teams the next few years. What I hear is that Dad didn't get the head coach job in Hibbing two years ago and doesn't see eye-to-eye with the guy that got it, so he sent the fam to Hermantown.

If this is true then he would be an illegal transfer. The entire family has to move in order for a player to be eligible. His Dad still teaches in Hibbing so he must commute every day.

I believe Froggy is correct.
They need to have sold the home in Hibbing, purchased a new home or be renting and moved residence completely, address change etc.

Ya pretty sure he loaded up the truck moved to HT. Don't know them so I can't ask and wouldn't if I did.

[Imported from MN]

Hurley's family still resides in Duluth? Wow, I wonder how that 5 hour round trip commute is for school.

This just shows how much you fact you leave out to better your cause. His family moved after his sixth grade year and he played bantams for White Bear Lake and enrolled at STA as an 8th grader. And before you make even more accusations I think he had two possibly three uncles that went to STA as well. Big loss for Marshall good player.

[thestickler07]

Hurley's family still resides in Duluth? Wow, I wonder how that 5 hour round trip commute is for school.

This just shows how much you fact you leave out to better your cause. His family moved after his sixth grade year and he played bantams for White Bear Lake and enrolled at STA as an 8th grader. And before you make even more accusations I think he had two possibly three uncles that went to STA as well. Big loss for Marshall good player.

So he's the cousin of AHA/Eagan Hurley clan?

The oldest Hurley that played lacrosse at Cornell went to STAA for middle school.

[PrivateSchoolsBelongIn1A]

Private Schools are sick

Yeah all of you private school haters can go piss up a rope.
Breck's going all the way this year!
1A Champs: '00, '04, '09, '10, '15.
#1ADynasty #2smallfor2A

[pekyman]

Private Schools are sick

Yeah all of you private school haters can go piss up a rope.
Breck's going all the way this year!
1A Champs: '00, '04, '09, '10, '15.
#1ADynasty #2smallfor2A

You get an A for being creative. Was wondering how Breck has escaped the criticism. Breck has 4 championships? Wow, I didn't know they had 4. Well, I for one hope Hermantown piss pounds you into next week 2small.

[HockeyBum]

You guys should contain yourself, a be a bit ashamed, the names you through around regardless of discussion about a parent still reflects on kids. You should really keep ur speculation to pure speculation and leave names out of it.

If you want to play that game I probably have stories about most of you, you wouldn't want posted on a web site!