A vs AA

[ted2you]

Mahtomedi beat Hill Murray and I suggest there is not as large a difference between the top A and AA teams. There is no doubt that AA teams are statistically stronger that A teams, I also acknowledge a significant drop off in A after the top 5-7 teams. But is it really all that surprising when a top A team beats a top AA team? I believe the margin of difference between the top 5A teams and the top 10 AA teams is not really that large. This year Hermantown, EGF, and Mahtomedi would all be top 10 AA teams. The numbers might surprise people a little more than you would think as the top A teams win a much higher percentage of games that would be suspected against top 10AA teams. One major reason there are not more "upsets" is that the top AA teams really are not that eager to schedule top A teams. (In truth, it is difficult to know which A teams year to year will be that Elite team). Do you really want to schedule a top A team and lose? I would suggest that AA teams only schedule A teams when they have little choice. In section 8 for example, Moorhead, Bemidji, and Roseau have to play EGF, Thief River Falls, and Warroad due to long standing natural rivalries. Those 3 teams didn't win a game against EGF last season and Bemidji eked out a 2-1 win to earn a split with them this season and are the only AA Minnesota team to beat them. Moorhead, Bemidji and Roseau won a total of 1 game last season against EGF and Warroad. Poor Roseau may never want to see EGF again having lost the last three games by a total of 17 goals (they were the consolation AA Champion). EGF beat Blaine last year when they were both #!, and to follow that up EGF beat them again this year. Everyone acknowledges that Edina was the best team in the state last year, It would have been wonderful to see Edina and EGF play last season but it won't happen. It is one thing for Edina to lose to Lakeville North, Minnetonka, or Eden Prairie, but they rarely want to risk losing to Hermantown who also just beat White Bear Lake. I suggest when people talk about the top teams in the state they consider adding the top A teams to the discussion. I think it would be fun to see a top 20 list that includes both AA and A teams.

I'd like to see people's ideas of their Minnesota top 20 teams, including AA and A teams.

[thestickler07]

(makes point about depth of AA teams being better than that of A squads)
(references ease of scheduling in metro area that allows for increased competition in regular season with minimal travel)
(ridicules absurdity of pointing to one result to validate OP's point of view)
http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/game/show/80 ... er=1322831

[TheHockeyDJ]

With all the games an A team beats and AA team, it just makes it even more absurd when someone is talking about seeding AA teams and want to point out losses to A teams. It's like one HS coach told me in regard to that at section meetings, "WHO did you play in Class A?"

[WestMetro]

you dont have to look too far for a merged ranking system, statistically based approach so you can apply your own judgement

http://www.ushsho.com/mnrank.htm

[goldy313]

Oh the Irony......

Bemidji, Roseau, and Hill Murray opt up. So your argument is essentially the top A teams can beat or compete with the top A teams that opt up?

[bauerman]

STA would beat many AA teams that they played in the years they were in A. I have long contended that the top A teams can easily compete with all AA teams.The class A tournement is not as deep as the AA but the top 3 maybe 4 teams are in the same talent class as the AA tournement. It is hard for good class A teams to get games against AA teams outside of conference play because if the A team beats the AA team it is held against them in seedings which is stupid

[Doc Holliday]

It is one thing for Edina to lose to Lakeville North, Minnetonka, or Eden Prairie, but they rarely want to risk losing to Hermantown who also just beat White Bear Lake.

[Tenoverpar]

Maybe they should send all the "opt up" A teams back to A and then the A tournament would be a pretty good one besides the final 4.
What would that look like? Who in the top 20 is an A opt up?

[MNHockeyFan]

Who in the top 20 is an A opt up?

STA, BSM and Holy Family for sure.

[karl(east)]

Who in the top 20 is an A opt up?

STA, BSM and Holy Family for sure.

Plus Hill, Bemidji, and (if you consider them top 20) Grand Rapids.

The trouble with this approach is that most of the opt-ups are already in places where there are good A teams. Forcing up Roseau and Bemidji puts them in 8A, which is usually one of the best sections every year. Grand Rapids would go into 7A, which is already the domain of Hermantown and Duluth Marshall. The big metro privates would go into 2A and 4A, both of which are pretty competitive and have several top-10 A teams.

6A, which is good this year but historically hasn't produced a lot of top-flight teams, wouldn't change. It would add Rochester Century to 1A, which isn't going to shift much of anything. 3A would remain 3A, unless they stretch it so far as to include Holy Family, which would immediately get a free pass. 5A might add Cloquet. So the tournament would get a bit better, but I don't think it would solve the depth issue, or eliminate some of those first round blowouts.

It would also leave us with only 2 AA teams north of Brainerd (East and Moorhead), and just one AA private school (Cretin). AA would effectively become a metro public school tournament, with A left for everyone else.

[pekyman]

Who in the top 20 is an A opt up?

STA, BSM and Holy Family for sure.

Hill-Murry

[Froggy Richards]

I think A and AA has worked itself out the way it was intended to. It was a chance for the small Cinderella school to experience the State Tournament. With the exception of Hermantown, all of the A schools with AA type programs have opted up. You could maybe argue EGF as well, but they really haven't done it long enough and only have about half of the Youth numbers as Hermantown. Maybe you don't get a bunch of outside fans at the A tournament, but that's no different than any other sport. Not sure how you could ever create the interest in the A tourney that the AA has.

[rainier]

I think A and AA has worked itself out the way it was intended to. It was a chance for the small Cinderella school to experience the State Tournament. With the exception of Hermantown, all of the A schools with AA type programs have opted up. You could maybe argue EGF as well, but they really haven't done it long enough and only have about half of the Youth numbers as Hermantown. Maybe you don't get a bunch of outside fans at the A tournament, but that's no different than any other sport. Not sure how you could ever create the interest in the A tourney that the AA has.

It would help if the Class A final was at 4:00 instead of noon. Why not have the two championship games be the evening session? I dont' see how a 3rd place game should be given a more "prime time" slot than a title game.

[elliott70]

I think A and AA has worked itself out the way it was intended to. It was a chance for the small Cinderella school to experience the State Tournament. With the exception of Hermantown, all of the A schools with AA type programs have opted up. You could maybe argue EGF as well, but they really haven't done it long enough and only have about half of the Youth numbers as Hermantown. Maybe you don't get a bunch of outside fans at the A tournament, but that's no different than any other sport. Not sure how you could ever create the interest in the A tourney that the AA has.

It would help if the Class A final was at 4:00 instead of noon. Why not have the two championship games be the evening session? I dont' see how a 3rd place game should be given a more "prime time" slot than a title game.

I believe the girls' tourney just changed it to A followed by AA.

[ted2you]

This is the heart of my post.

We will never go back to the single class system and that is the heart of my problem. There is a difference between private schools that literally can or pick and choose who attends their school and schools like Roseau and Grand Rapids. Most people think that schools like Hermantown, EGF, Thief River Falls should move up. I have no doubt that they can compete and would survive in AA. These schools have enrollments that are 1/4 that of most AA schools. What they do have is strong youth programs and strong traditions for the game. I admire that, but look at EGF and Hermantown for example, right now they are among the best teams in the state A, or AA. For the last few years EGF is loaded with talent, but they went 11 years at class A without going to the state tournament. If they did move up their travel schedule probably wouldn't change much, because they would continue to play "opt up" AA teams or strong A teams that do not move up. These are schools that can compete at the highest level maybe 1 time in 20-30 years. They are not Edina or Eden Prairie where you can just reload every year.

Of course we admire the Roseau's of the world who with a student count of your basic study hall at EP, can come down and compete. We've seen it happen, but we remember the exceptions and not the rule. I've said for a long time that A teams should have the option on any given year to choose to opt up. What would the problem be if they set a January 1, dead line for these schools to move up and play at the A or AA tournament? Sure Section 7 or 8 AA schools might not like that they will lose to a smaller school. But then again it would allow the small schools to have the option to decide if they can compete. Think how much fun it would be to see which schools opt to move up! So a struggling Roseau team could opt to play in the A tournament this season and a very good EGF team could play in the AA tournament where they can compete. But remember that in 2-3 years when the talent cycle evens out, they may not even be able to compete at single A.

There is such a numerical advantage for the large schools, meaning that most opt up A teams really cant compete on a regular basis. We love an underdog story, so why do we insist that schools make multiple year commitment to play at that level?

Name one non-private school that has opted up that can compete on a regular basis with the elite large programs?

[/i]

[thestickler07]

I think A and AA has worked itself out the way it was intended to. It was a chance for the small Cinderella school to experience the State Tournament. With the exception of Hermantown, all of the A schools with AA type programs have opted up. You could maybe argue EGF as well, but they really haven't done it long enough and only have about half of the Youth numbers as Hermantown. Maybe you don't get a bunch of outside fans at the A tournament, but that's no different than any other sport. Not sure how you could ever create the interest in the A tourney that the AA has.

It would help if the Class A final was at 4:00 instead of noon. Why not have the two championship games be the evening session? I dont' see how a 3rd place game should be given a more "prime time" slot than a title game.

Season tickets for AA are sold as packages for the entire tournament, would be bad business to scalp season ticket holders if they happened to have a favorite squad of their's lose and goto the 3rd place game.

[bubblehockey27]

I think that historically class A's top teams could always hang with the AA schools. I'd argue that within the last few years maybe only the top 3 teams could really compete, where as 10-15 years ago class A was significantly stronger.

[rainier]

I think A and AA has worked itself out the way it was intended to. It was a chance for the small Cinderella school to experience the State Tournament. With the exception of Hermantown, all of the A schools with AA type programs have opted up. You could maybe argue EGF as well, but they really haven't done it long enough and only have about half of the Youth numbers as Hermantown. Maybe you don't get a bunch of outside fans at the A tournament, but that's no different than any other sport. Not sure how you could ever create the interest in the A tourney that the AA has.

It would help if the Class A final was at 4:00 instead of noon. Why not have the two championship games be the evening session? I dont' see how a 3rd place game should be given a more "prime time" slot than a title game.

Season tickets for AA are sold as packages for the entire tournament, would be bad business to scalp season ticket holders if they happened to have a favorite squad of their's lose and goto the 3rd place game.

True, they would get hosed. They could allow AA season ticket buyers to get into the AA 3rd place game for free with their AA ticket. I cant't imagine a 3rd place game at noon would sell out.

Alternatively, why not have the A tourney Wed-Fri and AA tourney Th-Sat? Having a title game Fri and Sat night would be fantastic. Thursday would have a lot of games with two A semis and four AA quarters, but two games could be streamed instead of televised.

[pekyman]

This is the heart of my post.

We will never go back to the single class system and that is the heart of my problem. There is a difference between private schools that literally can or pick and choose who attends their school and schools like Roseau and Grand Rapids. Most people think that schools like Hermantown, EGF, Thief River Falls should move up. I have no doubt that they can compete and would survive in AA. These schools have enrollments that are 1/4 that of most AA schools. What they do have is strong youth programs and strong traditions for the game. I admire that, but look at EGF and Hermantown for example, right now they are among the best teams in the state A, or AA. For the last few years EGF is loaded with talent, but they went 11 years at class A without going to the state tournament. If they did move up their travel schedule probably wouldn't change much, because they would continue to play "opt up" AA teams or strong A teams that do not move up. These are schools that can compete at the highest level maybe 1 time in 20-30 years. They are not Edina or Eden Prairie where you can just reload every year.

Of course we admire the Roseau's of the world who with a student count of your basic study hall at EP, can come down and compete. We've seen it happen, but we remember the exceptions and not the rule. I've said for a long time that A teams should have the option on any given year to choose to opt up. What would the problem be if they set a January 1, dead line for these schools to move up and play at the A or AA tournament? Sure Section 7 or 8 AA schools might not like that they will lose to a smaller school. But then again it would allow the small schools to have the option to decide if they can compete. Think how much fun it would be to see which schools opt to move up! So a struggling Roseau team could opt to play in the A tournament this season and a very good EGF team could play in the AA tournament where they can compete. But remember that in 2-3 years when the talent cycle evens out, they may not even be able to compete at single A.

There is such a numerical advantage for the large schools, meaning that most opt up A teams really cant compete on a regular basis. We love an underdog story, so why do we insist that schools make multiple year commitment to play at that level?

Name one non-private school that has opted up that can compete on a regular basis with the elite large programs?

[/i]

None, Zero, Zilch.

[Tenoverpar]

How crazy would it be to increase the A pool by allowing the largest schools to roster a second team to play "A". It would allow upper classmen who can still play the game, stay in it and compete for their school while being passed over for a younger players (annual tradition).

Okay..stupid idea but eh' we're all brainstorming

Wayzata High School 3060
Eden Prairie High School 3007
Minnetonka High School 2750
Stillwater Area High School 2670
Champlin Park High School 2571
Blaine High School 2551
Burnsville High School 2530
Edina High School 2436
White Bear Lake Area High School 2257
Anoka High School 2157
Prior Lake High School 2154
Eagan High School 2147
Maple Grove High School 2142
Coon Rapids High School 2120
Hopkins High School 2070
Eastview High School 2056
Centennial High School 2017
Rosemount High School 2013

[RRubberbeeskit]

How crazy would it be to increase the A pool by allowing the largest schools to roster a second team to play "A". It would allow upper classmen who can still play the game, stay in it and compete for their school while being passed over for a younger players (annual tradition).

Okay..stupid idea but eh' we're all brainstorming

Wayzata High School 3060
Eden Prairie High School 3007
Minnetonka High School 2750
Stillwater Area High School 2670
Champlin Park High School 2571
Blaine High School 2551
Burnsville High School 2530
Edina High School 2436
White Bear Lake Area High School 2257
Anoka High School 2157
Prior Lake High School 2154
Eagan High School 2147
Maple Grove High School 2142
Coon Rapids High School 2120
Hopkins High School 2070
Eastview High School 2056
Centennial High School 2017
Rosemount High School 2013

Tenover: You forgot the city of Roseau pop 2633 but I think you might have trouble finding players young enough for the Class A team.

[elliott70]

How crazy would it be to increase the A pool by allowing the largest schools to roster a second team to play "A". It would allow upper classmen who can still play the game, stay in it and compete for their school while being passed over for a younger players (annual tradition).

Okay..stupid idea but eh' we're all brainstorming

Wayzata High School 3060
Eden Prairie High School 3007
Minnetonka High School 2750
Stillwater Area High School 2670
Champlin Park High School 2571
Blaine High School 2551
Burnsville High School 2530
Edina High School 2436
White Bear Lake Area High School 2257
Anoka High School 2157
Prior Lake High School 2154
Eagan High School 2147
Maple Grove High School 2142
Coon Rapids High School 2120
Hopkins High School 2070
Eastview High School 2056
Centennial High School 2017
Rosemount High School 2013

Its an idea but the teams in bold are struggling to compete as it is.

[thestickler07]

One class sweet sixteen format, crown one state champion.

[kniven]

Who in the top 20 is an A opt up?

STA, BSM and Holy Family for sure.

Plus Hill, Bemidji, and (if you consider them top 20) Grand Rapids.

The trouble with this approach is that most of the opt-ups are already in places where there are good A teams. Forcing up Roseau and Bemidji puts them in 8A, which is usually one of the best sections every year. Grand Rapids would go into 7A, which is already the domain of Hermantown and Duluth Marshall. The big metro privates would go into 2A and 4A, both of which are pretty competitive and have several top-10 A teams.

6A, which is good this year but historically hasn't produced a lot of top-flight teams, wouldn't change. It would add Rochester Century to 1A, which isn't going to shift much of anything. 3A would remain 3A, unless they stretch it so far as to include Holy Family, which would immediately get a free pass. 5A might add Cloquet. So the tournament would get a bit better, but I don't think it would solve the depth issue, or eliminate some of those first round blowouts.

It would also leave us with only 2 AA teams north of Brainerd (East and Moorhead), and just one AA private school (Cretin). AA would effectively become a metro public school tournament, with A left for everyone else.

Cloquet in 5A in this scenario? CEC is a big, big part of the hockey community here in the north. I would be depressed if that ever happened. Section 7 and all the rivalries are really fun.

[ted2you]

If you would allow teams on a year to year basis opt up, This year Mahtomedi, Hermantown, and EGF would be top 10 or maybe EGF as low as 11 or 12th in AA.