MN Ms. Hockey 2014

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

Was pretty cool of you.

[NotMuchToSay]

Keep in mind...

Ms. Hockey and the Senior Goalie of the Year awards are presented by Let's Play Hockey and the Minnesota Wild to the top senior girls’ high school hockey player/goalie in the state of Minnesota, based on the following criteria: academics, community/extra-curricular activities, citizenship, coachability and, of course, on-ice performance.

[powerplayer]

Too bad they don't have a Ms Hockey for the Northern part of the State and a Ms Hockey for the Southern part of the State. Seems a little lopsided to me.

[36Guy]

Too bad they don't have a Ms Hockey for the Northern part of the State and a Ms Hockey for the Southern part of the State. Seems a little lopsided to me.

So is the population??

[Sam David]

I'm certain it's been commented on several times, but I don't understand why a girl (or coach) on this list may play 45 minutes a game when her team is up by 6 points? There is that 3rd line just waiting for an opportunity to see some ice. No question she is a VERY talented girl! The SOS is still flawed if someone is trying to look at a single number (which I'm sure most are smart enough to know).

I'm only commenting as it still amazes me that so-called HOCKEY PEOPLE are still so short sighted.

Another example (last year), a Freshman at the time scored a fabulous amount of Rookie goals aligned with a D1 senior. She is still a fabulous TOP player, however...she played at least 35+ minutes a game on a small rostered team.

So the point is simple, you still can't compare even the adjusted SOS numbers side by side though the SOS helps just a little (one part of a complex adjustment).

Then you have the parent statisticians padding the overly liberal 3rd assists with little transparency.

The missing link is still a quite large. Finding anything near the perfect adjustment will remain allusive. Things will remain apples and oranges until one can account for minutes played, power plays and match ups (and line mates).

SOS is still fun but still doesn't do the job. The quest continues.......

In response to the recent thread on adjusted stats, I thought I would look at how the Ms. Hockey semifinalists fared vs. top competition. In the table below I've listed each player's overall goals and total points for the season along with those scored in the games they played against my list of the 12 and 29 highest ranked teams. At the bottom I've included the bubble players mentioned in this thread that possibly should have been considered.

My top 12 list of teams includes the top ten teams in class AA mentioned in either the Jan. 29 LPH list or the Feb. 2 KRACH rankings plus Thief River Falls since they made the KRACH overall top 10, the only A team to do so. The AA list includes Hopkins, EP, Minnetonka, HM, BSM, Wayzata, Edina, Blaine, Lakeville N, Irondale, and Maple Grove.

My top 29 list includes the top 20 in AA and the top 5 in A for either the same LPH or KRACH rankings. This group includes the 12 above plus Dodge Co., Stillwater, Mounds View, Burnsville, Lakeville S, Jefferson, CDH, Roseville, Buffalo, Eastview, Robbinsdale A/C, and Chaska/Chan in AA, plus East Grand Forks, Achiever, Blake, Warroad, and Red Wing in A.

I'll leave it to others to comment on who should move up or down.

Code: Select all

                 overall             vs. top 12            vs. top 29 
                Goals Points     Games Goals Points    Games Goals Points
Donovan          39     78         5     6      9        9     8     17
Falck            18     44         3     2      3        6     2      4
Joyce            21     34         4     4      4       15    13     20        
Rodgers          26     52         9     4      9       13     9     20
Schammel         46     82         1     1      3        5     6     14
Pannek           30     73         8     5     16       15    13     35
Reilly           34     65         8     9     16       15    19     34
Astrup           14     31         5     0      3       10     0      7
Baldwin          10     26        13     6     13       17     9     21
Sutton           16     43         3     1      4       11     5     20
And the "overlooked" players mentioned in this thread:
Aney, K.         50     96         0     -      -        1     1      2
Baysoy           22     40         0     -      -        5     1      4
Coleman          30     56         5     6      8       12    10     21
Fawcett          28     58         1     2      2        4     4      6
Klein            17     46        11     6     15       16     6     19 
Power            26     35         7     1      3       17    10     13

Note that the games played listed for each player does account for games that players did not participate in for the cases I was aware of.

[sinbin]

Good stats and comments. I think we're all agreed that no system is perfect. If that existed, we would all use it and have easy answers. Each of these looks is one piece of the puzzle and the discussions here are just pieces of the on-ice puzzle, not the off-ice components.

The stats vs. top teams is interesting in that you do see some players disappearing and other rise to the top. Of course, we all know that there are many other variables involved.

Do voters look at things like this or do they just look at overall stats or do they just go with their gut? I imagine each has his/her own method and sticks with it no matter what anyone else says.

[36Guy]

I'm certain it's been commented on several times, but I don't understand why a girl (or coach) on this list may play 45 minutes a game when her team is up by 6 points? There is that 3rd line just waiting for an opportunity to see some ice. No question she is a VERY talented girl! The SOR is still flawed if someone is trying to look at a single number (which I'm sure most are smart enough to know).

I'm only commenting as it still amazes me that so-called HOCKEY PEOPLE are still so short sighted.

Another example (last year), a Freshman at the time scored a fabulous amount of Rookie goals aligned with a D1 senior. She is still a fabulous TOP player, however...she played at least 35+ minutes a game on a small rostered team.

So the point is simple, you still can't compare even the adjusted SOR numbers side by side though the SOR helps just a little (one part of a complex adjustment).

Then you have the parent statisticians padding the overly liberal 3rd assists with little transparency.

The missing link is still a quite large. Finding anything near the perfect adjustment will remain allusive. Things will remain apples and oranges until one can account for minutes played, power plays and match ups (and line mates).

SOR is still fun but still doesn't do the job. The quest continues.......

In response to the recent thread on adjusted stats, I thought I would look at how the Ms. Hockey semifinalists fared vs. top competition. In the table below I've listed each player's overall goals and total points for the season along with those scored in the games they played against my list of the 12 and 29 highest ranked teams. At the bottom I've included the bubble players mentioned in this thread that possibly should have been considered.

My top 12 list of teams includes the top ten teams in class AA mentioned in either the Jan. 29 LPH list or the Feb. 2 KRACH rankings plus Thief River Falls since they made the KRACH overall top 10, the only A team to do so. The AA list includes Hopkins, EP, Minnetonka, HM, BSM, Wayzata, Edina, Blaine, Lakeville N, Irondale, and Maple Grove.

My top 29 list includes the top 20 in AA and the top 5 in A for either the same LPH or KRACH rankings. This group includes the 12 above plus Dodge Co., Stillwater, Mounds View, Burnsville, Lakeville S, Jefferson, CDH, Roseville, Buffalo, Eastview, Robbinsdale A/C, and Chaska/Chan in AA, plus East Grand Forks, Achiever, Blake, Warroad, and Red Wing in A.

I'll leave it to others to comment on who should move up or down.

Code: Select all

                 overall             vs. top 12            vs. top 29 
                Goals Points     Games Goals Points    Games Goals Points
Donovan          39     78         5     6      9        9     8     17
Falck            18     44         3     2      3        6     2      4
Joyce            21     34         4     4      4       15    13     20        
Rodgers          26     52         9     4      9       13     9     20
Schammel         46     82         1     1      3        5     6     14
Pannek           30     73         8     5     16       15    13     35
Reilly           34     65         8     9     16       15    19     34
Astrup           14     31         5     0      3       10     0      7
Baldwin          10     26        13     6     13       17     9     21
Sutton           16     43         3     1      4       11     5     20
And the "overlooked" players mentioned in this thread:
Aney, K.         50     96         0     -      -        1     1      2
Baysoy           22     40         0     -      -        5     1      4
Coleman          30     56         5     6      8       12    10     21
Fawcett          28     58         1     2      2        4     4      6
Klein            17     46        11     6     15       16     6     19 
Power            26     35         7     1      3       17    10     13

Note that the games played listed for each player does account for games that players did not participate in for the cases I was aware of.

First, If you think stats matter period you are wrong. Yes, all great players have good stats! But, it is mostly done by the eye test. Look at the history of Miss Hockey, great "all around" hockey players NOT stat fillers. I think the results in the past have been spot on. Cam, Brandt, Brausen, Marvin, Sylvester, Brodt are you kidding me....none of which were running up stats on week teams. Great women and hockey players. While many are worth mentioning I can Guarantee you this is a 3 horse race. Baldwin, Pannek, Rodgers....period!!!!

[powerplayer]

Of course stats matter. Who are you trying to kid? If these girls did not have good stats, their names wouldn't be associated with MS Hockey. Dahhhh!

[36Guy]

Of course stats matter. Who are you trying to kid? If these girls did not have good stats, their names wouldn't be associated with MS Hockey. Dahhhh!

Powerplayer...you should have your GED taped to your forehead when reading. As I said, all great players have good stats! But the 4 goal night vs Waseca will not get you miss hockey. Soooo....stats become irrelevant!!! The 3 front runners for Miss Hockey are 7th, 22nd and Baldwin is not even in the top 100 in total scoring. In my opinion, these 3 make girls hockey look like womens hockey.

Props out to all the others, there are so many stud players in our state we are blessed. But the best of the best seniors has it's own little class.

[powerplayer]

WOW 36Guy my bad for taking your post the wrong way but you didn't have to be so snippy about it.

[36Guy]

WOW 36Guy my bad for taking your post the wrong way but you didn't have to be so snippy about it.

No worries PP, I am all bark and no bite! On a hockey blog it is spelled Snipey not Snippy..Peace

[powerplayer]

[MNHockeyFan]

The five finalists have been named for the Senior Goalie of the Year:

http://www.letsplayhockey.com/todays-to ... lists.html

[sinbin]

And some pretty nice GPAs and service credentials for these young ladies as well.

[Misterright]

So many people have been barking about how their favorite daughters have been overlooked lately because other players score a lot of points against weaker opponents, or because they play defense or they come from the northern part of the state. We have not discussed the giant elephant that is in the room, which is the fact that if your name begins with a letter in the beginning of the alphabet, especially "A" "B" or "C" you have a greater chance of being a Ms Hockey winner. I do not know if this is because the attention spans of voters is becoming smaller or perhaps boredom comes into play (lets just get this over with) It could be that the voters also have names that begin with the same early letters of the alphabet. I do not think that the statisticians in this audience would dispute the odds of 3 Ms hockey winners last names begin with"Br" as being next to impossible. As a concerned parent of a daughter whose name begins with R I need to know if this conspiracy can be stopped. Discuss please....

[mrleft]

I have wondered about that myself from time to time, but have been afraid to bring it up because my name begins with a letter in the front half. But if this theory is correct then Astrup or Donovan will win and Pannek and Rodgers do not have a chance.

[sinbin]

Well, if you're gonna go to the letter of the alphabet discussion, then you must also take the Matthew effect under discussion, too.

Alas, we're near the middle of the alphabet, so even those well-meaning souls who like to begin lists in reverse order beginning with 'Z' to inject some equity into the process still discriminate against those with names in the middle of the alphabet.

All I know is that my good friend Aaron Aaronsen is a very happy guy.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

Dammit. I knew when I enrolled my daughter at Achiever Academy I should have changed her name to Abigail Anderson.

** please note: if there is a real Abby Anderson at AA, in MN, playing volleyball, or who is actually male, I am NOT referring to you! Please Abby's dad don't be too upset, it's a joke. You know the guys here tend to take things too far sometimes, myself included. This disclaimer means you can't sue me, the forum, the hub, MSHL, Chipotle, or AA. (You may however, sue pepperpot.) I'm not an attorney I just play one on this forum.

[AAA Dad]

HUH???

[blondegirlsdad]

And if I were to make a stab at the identities of Mr. Left and Mr. Right, I think I would be right. But I won't.

Well, I wouldn't be right. Mr. Right is right. I would be correct.

[Misterright]

Dear blondgirlsdad: PM to me my true identity and I will let you know if you are "right"

[mrleft]

If you can tell me my real name PM my secret identity and I will let you know if you are "correct"
And then I will not take your firstborn.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

Here's a hint...
They are the same person.

[Silent But Deadly]

I have wondered about that myself from time to time, but have been afraid to bring it up because my name begins with a letter in the front half. But if this theory is correct then Astrup or Donovan will win and Pannek and Rodgers do not have a chance.

I think you missed the future Ms Hockey.....Baldwin!!!!

[mrleft]

Another "B" I wanted to avoid that subject
The killer "B"s Fact or fiction?