Minnesota Blades U16 vs Shattuck

[JSR]

JSR,
I really appreciate what you posted in this thread and think all that have responded are being thoughtful and constructive. When I started the thread, I knew little about before and after programs. Your posts help enlightened me on that subject.

USA Hockey runs the USA Hockey National Tourney because they have been given a charter to develop hockey in the USA. To maintain and grow the sport and keep their charter the organization needs the trust of the majority of the people involved.

To gain that trust, most participants (player, coach, and parents) have to feel they are being treated fairly. USA Hockey and its affiliate WAHA have developed an approach over the years that open the door for participation of select teams in national tourneys only and have closed it to others.

That is an undeniable fact. The people on this board may feel they are doing that for good reasons; but it crosses the line of their charters because it provides for unfairness at so many different levels for all the players and parents and coaches and team organizers by denying access to all to compete in the same manner.

What I personally want is not the issue. What I am pointing out is that USA hockey and any of affiliates should not impede any organization from developing a “before and after” program if they desire to do that and those organizations be allowed to compete in the same way the WAHA before and after teams are allowed to compete.

Or USA Hockey and it affiliates should end before and after by stating all such teams are not eligible for the National Tourneys.

But I believe is that by allowing before and after, competition to get to the national level will become stronger and I believe that would be better for the sport. That is not just a Shattuck/Minnesota issue; WAHA has few AAA organizations that compete at the national level and what few organizations they have had are getting fewer and as a result weaker.

Minnesota Hockey is founded on the idea that a broad base participation in the sport is far better than narrow “stove pipe” participation with a few good teams on top.

I believe that USA Hockey has developed a “stove pipe” approach driven by their approach to U18, U16, and U14 national tourneys and have no way of getting out of that except to watch participation numbers fall and the stove pipe get narrower.

What I would hope is that by truly allowing before and after programs, there would be renewed interest in the sport nationally. Moving in that direction beats doing nothing and trying to maintain the status quo.

I think for the most part I agree with you.... I like the before and after approach because it accomplishes something that I/we appreciate and that being you allow a kid to play for his/her high school, which is a very special thing.... the &A program allows them to do that while also allowing them to participate in the highest level of national tournaments available currently. What a truly great experience for the kids who are able to do both.

[black sheep]

so after reading through all that...i still didn't get...

Is there MN U16 teams that have applied for Teir 1 status with a desire to play in National Championship that have been denied?

It seems as though Team Wisconsin has set a precidence that USA Hockey (MN Hockey) would have a difficult time legally denying a MN based U16 teams application for before & after status.

If TEAM WISCONSIN can use the Elite League for the USA game requirements...any of the other Elite League teams could as well, or any other organization that could obtain entry into the Elite League.

[Froggy Richards]

so after reading through all that...i still didn't get...

Is there MN U16 teams that have applied for Teir 1 status with a desire to play in National Championship that have been denied?

It seems as though Team Wisconsin has set a precidence that USA Hockey (MN Hockey) would have a difficult time legally denying a MN based U16 teams application for before & after status.

If TEAM WISCONSIN can use the Elite League for the USA game requirements...any of the other Elite League teams could as well, or any other organization that could obtain entry into the Elite League.

That's the same question that I asked and nobody answered it. I think you're right, anyone could do this. I just don't think there has been any interest. MN Teams used to go on to compete for Nationals in the past. I've read on this board that it fizzled out due to lack of interest and cost. The regular season and State Championships are the prize in MN, anything after this is just not the same.

[frederick61]

so after reading through all that...i still didn't get...

Is there MN U16 teams that have applied for Teir 1 status with a desire to play in National Championship that have been denied?

It seems as though Team Wisconsin has set a precidence that USA Hockey (MN Hockey) would have a difficult time legally denying a MN based U16 teams application for before & after status.

If TEAM WISCONSIN can use the Elite League for the USA game requirements...any of the other Elite League teams could as well, or any other organization that could obtain entry into the Elite League.

That's the same question that I asked and nobody answered it. I think you're right, anyone could do this. I just don't think there has been any interest. MN Teams used to go on to compete for Nationals in the past. I've read on this board that it fizzled out due to lack of interest and cost. The regular season and State Championships are the prize in MN, anything after this is just not the same.

You maybe right that other affiliates such as Minnesota can take a before and after program and request to play in the national tourney; but nobody knows. I suspect that any potential "before and after" program would have to argue that this rule below imposed by the Wisconsin affiliate, WAHA, is invalid. I suspect similiar rules exists in other affiliates naming special teams as being the only teams eligible.

JSR posted this from the WAHA handbook.

3. BEFORE AND AFTER ORGANIZATIONS: The only Tier I Before and
After program sanctioned by the Wisconsin Amateur Hockey Association shall be TEAM WISCONSIN.

The impact of the rule is to separate high school hockey from national tier I hockey at the season end. USA hockey does offer a national high school tourney. But the problem with the national high school tourney is that all the top end players outside of a few states like Minnesota play U18 or U16 Tier I hockey not high school. That results in about 100 top Tier I U18 teams nationally or about one team per 3 million people.

In the 2012-2013 season, Minnesota had over 150 boys high school teams or about one team per 20 thousand people. Some would say it is unfair to compare U18 Tier I to Minnesota; but I would argue the comparison shows a glaring weakness in USA Hockey's approach to implementing their charter to develop (that means grow to me) the sport. It also shows that Minnesota Hockey is a thorn in their side because such comparisons further expose that weakness.

The before and after I said here if implemented could provide a way of bringing high school and Tier I together by opening competition in states other than Minnesota and broadening the "stove pipe". I called it a wedge, by that I meant stabilizing two opposite approaches (Tier I and high school) so there was the start of a common path to grow the sport.

It would do so by maximizing the use of available ice facilities and opening a door for high school players to compete in Tier I.

[JSR]

so after reading through all that...i still didn't get...

Is there MN U16 teams that have applied for Teir 1 status with a desire to play in National Championship that have been denied?

It seems as though Team Wisconsin has set a precidence that USA Hockey (MN Hockey) would have a difficult time legally denying a MN based U16 teams application for before & after status.

If TEAM WISCONSIN can use the Elite League for the USA game requirements...any of the other Elite League teams could as well, or any other organization that could obtain entry into the Elite League.

That's the same question that I asked and nobody answered it. I think you're right, anyone could do this. I just don't think there has been any interest. MN Teams used to go on to compete for Nationals in the past. I've read on this board that it fizzled out due to lack of interest and cost. The regular season and State Championships are the prize in MN, anything after this is just not the same.

You maybe right that other affiliates such as Minnesota can take a before and after program and request to play in the national tourney; but nobody knows. I suspect that any potential "before and after" program would have to argue that this rule below imposed by the Wisconsin affiliate, WAHA, is invalid. I suspect similiar rules exists in other affiliates naming special teams as being the only teams eligible.

JSR posted this from the WAHA handbook.

3. BEFORE AND AFTER ORGANIZATIONS: The only Tier I Before and
After program sanctioned by the Wisconsin Amateur Hockey Association shall be TEAM WISCONSIN.

The impact of the rule is to separate high school hockey from national tier I hockey at the season end. USA hockey does offer a national high school tourney. But the problem with the national high school tourney is that all the top end players outside of a few states like Minnesota play U18 or U16 Tier I hockey not high school. That results in about 100 top Tier I U18 teams nationally or about one team per 3 million people.

In the 2012-2013 season, Minnesota had over 150 boys high school teams or about one team per 20 thousand people. Some would say it is unfair to compare U18 Tier I to Minnesota; but I would argue the comparison shows a glaring weakness in USA Hockey's approach to implementing their charter to develop (that means grow to me) the sport. It also shows that Minnesota Hockey is a thorn in their side because such comparisons further expose that weakness.

The before and after I said here if implemented could provide a way of bringing high school and Tier I together by opening competition in states other than Minnesota and broadening the "stove pipe". I called it a wedge, by that I meant stabilizing two opposite approaches (Tier I and high school) so there was the start of a common path to grow the sport.

It would do so by maximizing the use of available ice facilities and opening a door for high school players to compete in Tier I.

I've said it before and I will say it again, we obviously do it in Wisconsin and have been doing it for near a decade, I don't see any reason why you couldn't do it in MN....... Keep in mind we have four Tier 1 teams eligible for the national tourney in WI, those being the Madison Capitols, the Jr Admirals, the Jr. Gamblers, and Team Wisconsin... the key difference being the first three are full on winter Tier 1 teams and TW is just a before and after program... Don;t forget TW has U14 and U16 teams eligiblef for their national tourneys as well and both are also B&A programs. Those teams do not participate in the Elite D league or anything but they play independent Tier 1 schedules before high school hockey begins to get their games in.... it should also be pointed out that Wisconsin has a Tier II before and after program called the WEHL at the U14, U16 and U18 age levels and the WEHL teams are eligible for the Tier II national tournaments (those again are populated mostly by high school players, BUT the U14 teams actually also contain some good high end 8th graders who do not play high school, but do play for association teams in the winter then join those WEHL teams for before and after play as well...), which puts anotehr interesting twist on things