Cake

[MrBoDangles]

http://www.startribune.com/local/208965301.html

http://www.startribune.com/sports/preps/209026401.html

[TheOctopus]

http://www.startribune.com/local/208965301.html

http://www.startribune.com/sports/preps/209026401.html

Guess we need to think about redistributing the silent auction

[thestickler07]

Kind of a lazy article with the typical "have/have not" schtick (it is the STrib what can you really expect?) but I got some good things out of it.

-Thank god Sjoberg is going to coach basketball again, ever since he stepped aside to be the assistant headmaster things have been slipping in that department. The state title in 2007 was nice, hopefully they can notch another and get up to AAAA soon with the new gym.

-This article was pretty incredible advertising for STAA. If they really do remodel the old dorm buildings and open up boarding as an option again how great would that be? I could swim laps in a pool full of tears from this board alone.

[UntouchableFlow]

“They have more money than we do — everyone has more money than we do.” I found this quote in the last paragraph on the article about booster spending. There are two things that you can do when faced with this problem: you can complain about all of the people that have more money than you, or you can do something about it. These projects that the Edina and Wayzata boosters are funding don't just happen. It takes a group of highly motivated parents and volunteers to make stuff like this happen.

If you want to change your circumstances, don't just complain about it, do something about it.

[InigoMontoya]

If you want to change your circumstances, don't just complain about it, do something about it.

30 seconds of Google search shows:
Eden Praire
Population: 61,000
per capita income: $48,400

Andover
Population: 30,800
per capita income: $26,300

I'd say, "do something about it" is a little harsh.

[nahc]

Money doesn't win championships. Highly motivated, hard working players who sacrifice and are well coached win most championships in ALL sports.......

[goldy313]

Money doesn't win championships. Highly motivated, hard working players who sacrifice and are well coached win most championships in ALL sports.......

That's complete and utter BS at the high school level

[nahc]

Goldy please enlighten me how money, not player hard work, sacrifice, drive and coaching, wins championships.

[Shinbone_News]

Goldy please enlighten me how money, not player hard work, sacrifice, drive and coaching, wins championships.

Yeah, when I think of St. Paul Johnson, Andover, and Columbia Heights I think "lazy, selfish, and poorly coached." No wonder they don't get any open-enrollment move-ins the way Edina and Eden Prairie do. What a bunch of crappy parents and kids!

Dude, did you even read the OP's links? It goes into some detail about how money tilts the field.

[57special]

Surprised that there was no mention of Hopkins basketball.

[hockeyfan21]

Goldy please enlighten me how money, not player hard work, sacrifice, drive and coaching, wins championships.

]

nahc, please enlighten me how much is sacrificed by upper income families to pay for private skating lessons, extra ice-time, elite coaches, strength and conditioning coaches, stick allowances, etc. compares to the financial sacrifices by blue collar or low income families?

To pretend that money doesn't affect outcomes at all is ignorant. Look at the outward spread of elite hockey programs over time as wealthy families move further and further away from MPLS-STP. I'm sure the reason that traditional powerhouses from the 70's and 80's are no longer elite is simply to do with bad coaches and lazy kids...

[officehazard]

This article is so filled with typical Strib jabs at supposed affluent people and their idiosyncrasies that it is laughable. This article could have been so much better if they would have just taken out all the class warfare jingo and stuck to the facts. Wine tasting, well heeled, corporate sponsorships, luxury SUV’s etc. after every nauseating etc – All garbage journalism.
The Strib could have added more facts to better shed light on what makes these programs successful, but instead wanted to throw out sound bites to inflame the ill-informed. Kevin Tapani is coaching baseball at Providence is a rich get richer thing? Maybe he is doing it since his boys play baseball there and they needed a coach. Poor North Metro keeps losing to Wayzata Bantam B1 team by a goal, however, not stated in the article was they usually beat the other Wayzata B1 team by a goal or more (both teams were picked evenly from skaters 31-60 and goalies 5-8 in Wayzata). Most the North Metro players will get to play high school hockey at Osseo (Recruiting?), while the Wayzata kids are a long shot to ever make the Wayzata High School team, though many of them could of played on lesser A and AA teams. Not a single North Metro Player could have made the Wayzata AA team, so are they better playing for a championship at the B level-so why are they complaining?
Is it better to have your kids lose to super programs (but they get to play), or not get a chance to play at all if they went to one of these super programs? The other advantage is the sheer numbers at these programs. Better to pick a football team with 200 kids going out than 35. Not sure how money helps that issue. Alert the media: there are a lot of average families in Wayzata school district and their kids still participate in sports.
There are too many sound bites that were in there to even address as partial facts, but the article does slant the message by using the tactics. What makes these athletic programs successful? The same thing that makes their academic programs successful-informed and active parents. These parents volunteer countless hours in the classroom and athletic field. They are driven people who strive to do what they think is best for their kid. News alert, the academic programs at these schools get significant funding also, but they also get something better than money-parents who make sure their kids do their homework and stay involved.
The Wayzata hockey association has executives on the board and in their volunteer ranks-oh my god. They take what they have learned in the business world and apply it to making things better –the shame. Culver’s is a corporate sponsor?, or are they a local business that everyone drives by, so why not focus your advertising on potential customers.
Again, the Strib would have done a much better job by focusing on what others can do to make it better than ripping on the ones that are successful.

[thestickler07]

This article is so filled with typical Strib jabs at supposed affluent people and their idiosyncrasies that it is laughable. This article could have been so much better if they would have just taken out all the class warfare jingo and stuck to the facts. Wine tasting, well heeled, corporate sponsorships, luxury SUV’s etc. after every nauseating etc – All garbage journalism.
The Strib could have added more facts to better shed light on what makes these programs successful, but instead wanted to throw out sound bites to inflame the ill-informed. Kevin Tapani is coaching baseball at Providence is a rich get richer thing? Maybe he is doing it since his boys play baseball there and they needed a coach. Poor North Metro keeps losing to Wayzata Bantam B1 team by a goal, however, not stated in the article was they usually beat the other Wayzata B1 team by a goal or more (both teams were picked evenly from skaters 31-60 and goalies 5-8 in Wayzata). Most the North Metro players will get to play high school hockey at Osseo (Recruiting?), while the Wayzata kids are a long shot to ever make the Wayzata High School team, though many of them could of played on lesser A and AA teams. Not a single North Metro Player could have made the Wayzata AA team, so are they better playing for a championship at the B level-so why are they complaining?
Is it better to have your kids lose to super programs (but they get to play), or not get a chance to play at all if they went to one of these super programs? The other advantage is the sheer numbers at these programs. Better to pick a football team with 200 kids going out than 35. Not sure how money helps that issue. Alert the media: there are a lot of average families in Wayzata school district and their kids still participate in sports.
There are too many sound bites that were in there to even address as partial facts, but the article does slant the message by using the tactics. What makes these athletic programs successful? The same thing that makes their academic programs successful-informed and active parents. These parents volunteer countless hours in the classroom and athletic field. They are driven people who strive to do what they think is best for their kid. News alert, the academic programs at these schools get significant funding also, but they also get something better than money-parents who make sure their kids do their homework and stay involved.
The Wayzata hockey association has executives on the board and in their volunteer ranks-oh my god. They take what they have learned in the business world and apply it to making things better –the shame. Culver’s is a corporate sponsor?, or are they a local business that everyone drives by, so why not focus your advertising on potential customers.
Again, the Strib would have done a much better job by focusing on what others can do to make it better than ripping on the ones that are successful.

Kind of a lazy article with the typical "have/have not" schtick (it is the STrib what can you really expect?)

Don't get so worked up bro, you didn't have to pound out half a novel to get your point across.

[FREDFLINTSTONE]

Goldy please enlighten me how money, not player hard work, sacrifice, drive and coaching, wins championships.

Yeah, when I think of St. Paul Johnson, Andover, and Columbia Heights I think "lazy, selfish, and poorly coached." No wonder they don't get any open-enrollment move-ins the way Edina and Eden Prairie do. What a bunch of crappy parents and kids!

Dude, did you even read the OP's links? It goes into some detail about how money tilts the field.

Or move outs.....Edina and EP have just as many move outs as move ins.

[officehazard]

Don't get so worked up bro, you didn't have to pound out half a novel to get your point across.

Point well taken.

[nahc]

Goldy: $$ does buy OPPORTUNITIES for kids but if their heart is not in the sport, they have no desire to work their butts off to get to the next level, and have coaches who are only concerned with playing their kids, etc, guarantee there will be skaters who out peform these "chosen" few. I see it EVERY year.........Roseau? Moorehead? To only name a few. Plus there are countless other players across the state who also fit this bill. Its just like education, you can't make kids study or want to be at school just because the facilitities may be a bit nicer than in the next city/town. So I guess am not quite sure where this is going. This is just one person opinion..............

[goldy313]

Goldy: $$ does buy OPPORTUNITIES for kids but if their heart is not in the sport, they have no desire to work their butts off to get to the next level, and have coaches who are only concerned with playing their kids, etc, guarantee there will be skaters who out peform these "chosen" few. I see it EVERY year.........Roseau? Moorehead? To only name a few. Plus there are countless other players across the state who also fit this bill. Its just like education, you can't make kids study or want to be at school just because the facilitities may be a bit nicer than in the next city/town. So I guess am not quite sure where this is going. This is just one person opinion..............

no offense but money has so much to do with it it kicks all the other aspects to the curb. Your heart can be in the sport and you work your butt off but if you don't have the means and your school doesn't have the amenities you're going to fall behind.

Honestly if you really truly believe the only difference between hockey players in Worthington and St Thomas or football players at Henry and Eden Prairie is desire and work ethic you really need to take a few moments to visit these schools and see these kids. They live in completely different worlds.

There is a direct relation between income and athletic success, that's why the MSHSL has adjusted classes based on free/reduced lunch rates.

I just went to a conference where summer workouts were discussed, if you're at Wayzata or St Thomas and the only conflicts you have are going to your cabin and whether to drive the Suburban or Audi to practice you'll have an advantage over the kid from Central who has to take 2 busses to get to school or the kid from Fairmont who has to work on the farm all summer. These are huge issues related to fairness and competition. Issues that favor the wealthy greatly over those not so well off. That's not even getting into the huge weight room a donor gave one school while another can't pass a bond referendum to get a new boiler.

Kids are kids no matter where they're from. Lots of things make a difference like coaching, but money makes the biggest.

[UntouchableFlow]

Goldy: $$ does buy OPPORTUNITIES for kids but if their heart is not in the sport, they have no desire to work their butts off to get to the next level, and have coaches who are only concerned with playing their kids, etc, guarantee there will be skaters who out peform these "chosen" few. I see it EVERY year.........Roseau? Moorehead? To only name a few. Plus there are countless other players across the state who also fit this bill. Its just like education, you can't make kids study or want to be at school just because the facilitities may be a bit nicer than in the next city/town. So I guess am not quite sure where this is going. This is just one person opinion..............

no offense but money has so much to do with it it kicks all the other aspects to the curb. Your heart can be in the sport and you work your butt off but if you don't have the means and your school doesn't have the amenities you're going to fall behind.

Honestly if you really truly believe the only difference between hockey players in Worthington and St Thomas or football players at Henry and Eden Prairie is desire and work ethic you really need to take a few moments to visit these schools and see these kids. They live in completely different worlds.

There is a direct relation between income and athletic success, that's why the MSHSL has adjusted classes based on free/reduced lunch rates.

I just went to a conference where summer workouts were discussed, if you're at Wayzata or St Thomas and the only conflicts you have are going to your cabin and whether to drive the Suburban or Audi to practice you'll have an advantage over the kid from Central who has to take 2 busses to get to school or the kid from Fairmont who has to work on the farm all summer. These are huge issues related to fairness and competition. Issues that favor the wealthy greatly over those not so well off. That's not even getting into the huge weight room a donor gave one school while another can't pass a bond referendum to get a new boiler.

Kids are kids no matter where they're from. Lots of things make a difference like coaching, but money makes the biggest.

Goldy I agree with your point about money being one of the biggest differences. However, are the bigger schools at fault for having active and informed parents who want their kid's teams to succeed? We can all agree that money is a big part of what goes into sports, especially a sport like hockey, but what rattles my cage is when people only sit and complain about the matters rather than trying to do something to compete. I don't like how the kids and parents from big schools are almost made out to be villains in these articles. Let's not forget that these kids still have to work hard and put in countless hours to get to the next level; having the money and resources makes it possible, but it doesn't just happen.

It bothers me that so many people these days think that everything should be fair and equal. What possible measures could the MSHSL take to ensure that Minneapolis Washburn can compete with Wayzata in the hockey arena? If the government won't provide money for your school, get out in the community and find people who will.

[InigoMontoya]

I don't think goldy said anything about schools being at fault. I re-read the StarTribe pieces, and, maybe because I'm poor, I still don't see affluent (can I use that word, since well-heeled seems to be taboo) kids, parents, or neighborhoods being villified. The Red Star leans a little left, but if the same article were on Fox News, it would be seen as heralding the efforts of fund raisers, helping out young athletes. The fact is that money and facilities matter; every basketball coach that comes to the U is promised a new practice and workout facility - I assure you it's not so the coach can have a comfortable place to sit while he watches game film.

[officehazard]

Money matters, but a much bigger factor is size. Wayzata has class sizes of over 900 kids, many of whom are active in some activity. It is much easier to pick competitive teams with a much larger pool of kids (rich or poor). Privates just recruit the top kids so size isn't a factor there.

Kids can sign up for Trojan Power as early as 5th grade in Wayzata and pay $140 for a summer of quality training. Every sport is represented with sport specific training. It comes to about $3-4 per session, or little over a dollar an hour.

Not many schools can compete on the football field with a team that has over 200 kids trying out and have had OTAs all summer long (they have seniors who never get to play go out just to be part of the team-how many schools can say that?). Wayzata is not very good in basketball, so it must be more than money driving success. Hockey has not been very elite until this year either, so again, not all money.

[Mite-dad]

Is this really shocking to anybody? The best hockey teams are going to come from affluent schools whether public or private. It's just the way it is. The amazing thing is that parents spend incredible amounts of money on their kid's hockey training so that they will be good high school hockey players. The vast, vast majority will never play beyond high school. The D1 players are the true studs whether they play year around or are multi sport athletes. When I look at the list of D1 hockey players, they are coming from everywhere in the state, not just the metro.

Heck, in a small town like mine, not only would we have to travel for a couple hours for elite training, but our other sports programs would fail for lack of kids. If all our fair to good athletes trained for hockey year around, we wouldn't have football or baseball teams that could compete (if we could field teams at all). Also, with the intensity of sports now days, we would wear a poor kid out training year around for three different sports. My oldest boy plays fb, hockey and baseball and he has 6% body fat! The pressure he has to do school work and meet the rigors of training for sports is on the edge of insane!

So how do you even the playing field? As long as there are parents or communities who/that will spend any amount to give little Johnny the best high school hockey experience he possibly can have, there will be inequality between affluent communities and not-so-affluent communities. The only way to even things is to have multiple high school classes or create classes based on hockey success. Allow even large unsuccessful programs to play down and small successful programs to opt up if they wish.

I have no qualms w/ affluent people. Heck, who doesn't want to be affluent? And if we were, we'd probably be seeking more training for our kids also. Wouldn't we?!

BTW, any growing businesses out there that are looking to relocate, you are welcome in Little Falls! We will accept you and your donation checks into the hockey program with open arms!

[Shinbone_News]

Wealthy bedroom communities like Wayzata, Minnetonka, Eden Prairie and Edina have virtually no social programs to support because there are very few middle- and low-income people living there. They have low taxes and a high volume of housing, therefore they have bucketloads of money to spend on their public schools, even though Mom and Dad commute into Minneapolis each day to make that six-figure salary.

"Wealth redistribution" is a dirty word today, but it used to be called progressive taxation. Unfortunately, the decentralized way that we fund our public schools insures that Minneapolis Washburn will NEVER have the public funding nor the private support that Minneapolis Wayzata will have.

[SuperStar]

Estimated median household income in 2009- Latest figures I could find for some hockey hot beds

Eden Prairie:$93,717
Andover: $86,914
St. Michael: $80,735
Woodbury: $85,352
Minnetonka:$80,121
Edina: $78,961
Eagan: $74,960
Blaine: $71,094
Stillwater: $66,150
Wayzata: $63,743
White Bear Lake: $52,126
Roseau: $51,389
Red Wing: $46,057
Minneapolis: $45,538
Warroad: $40,885
St. Cloud: $35,868
Little Falls: $35,725
Duluth: $35,341

Minnesota as whole average: $55,616

Here are some numbers to either support some of your arguments or shoot it down...They are from 2009 - but I think we get the picture

Read more: http://www.city-data.com

[MNHockeyFan]

Estimated median household income in 2009- Latest figures I could find for some hockey hot beds

Eden Prairie:$93,717
Andover: $86,914
St. Michael: $80,735
Woodbury: $85,352
Minnetonka:$80,121
Edina: $78,961
Eagan: $74,960
Blaine: $71,094
Stillwater: $66,150
Wayzata: $63,743
White Bear Lake: $52,126
Roseau: $51,389
Red Wing: $46,057
Minneapolis: $45,538
Warroad: $40,885
St. Cloud: $35,868
Little Falls: $35,725
Duluth: $35,341

Minnesota as whole average: $55,616

Here are some numbers to either support some of your arguments or shoot it down...They are from 2009 - but I think we get the picture

Read more: http://www.city-data.com

Very surprised that Andover's median household income is $86,914 - higher in than Edina, Wayzata and Minnetonka. With so much wealth one would think that their hockey program would be stronger than those other relatively "poor" communities, eh?

Also Wayzata's median household income of $63,743 is a little deceiving. That's for the town itself but most of the kids who attend Wayzata High School live in nearby Plymouth, which has a median household income of $81,748. The high school itself is located in Plymouth, which has a population of 70,698 vs. just 3,694 for Wayzata.

[Shinbone_News]

Uh, I'm no math whiz (he said yet again), but MEDIAN and AVERAGE are very different.

Yes, there are some awesome million-dollar mansions out in Andover city limits.

Warren Buffet lives in Omaha. That probably puts the median there somewhere in the billion dollar range, even though most Omaha folks probably make about $40,000 per year. If you know what I mean.