"You just can't say no"

[YouthHockeyHub]

I got press credentials for the State Hockey Tournament this year. Having no idea what to write about (other than some pretty obvious connections between successful youth programs like Edina, Moorhead, Duluth East, etc)...I went in kind of blind hoping for an "aha" moment.

Mike Randolph supplied that moment in his Thursday press conference.

http://www.youthhockeyhub.com/you-just-cant-say-no/

Enjoy,

TS

[O-townClown]

This is terrific. Well stated.

[Froggy Richards]

As hard as it is for some of us to believe sometimes, there is a lot more to life than Hockey. Randolph is exactly right, these kids should be playing Baseball and hanging out with their buddies. Kids need time to just be kids, it's a huge part of their growth process. Add to that the opinions of every Doctor and Physical Therapist who has ever written on the subject. They all warn about the dangers of overuse of muscles that come with specializing in one sport at a young age. September to March is more than enough time to play hockey in a year.

Hockey is huge in Minnesota and can be the experience of a lifetime for kids and entire families. You can't replicate it in any other sport. As a parent I understand the temptation that comes with not wanting your kid to fall behind. I get caught up in it just like the next guy. But you also have to be able to realize when enough is enough, or else you risk doing more harm than good.

[SCBlueLiner]

As hard as it is for some of us to believe sometimes, there is a lot more to life than Hockey. Randolph is exactly right, these kids should be playing Baseball and hanging out with their buddies. Kids need time to just be kids, it's a huge part of their growth process. Add to that the opinions of every Doctor and Physical Therapist who has ever written on the subject. They all warn about the dangers of overuse of muscles that come with specializing in one sport at a young age. September to March is more than enough time to play hockey in a year.

Hockey is huge in Minnesota and can be the experience of a lifetime for kids and entire families. You can't replicate it in any other sport. As a parent I understand the temptation that comes with not wanting your kid to fall behind. I get caught up in it just like the next guy. But you also have to be able to realize when enough is enough, or else you risk doing more harm than good.

I'll play devil's advocate here.

What if the kid likes playing hockey over baseball?

What if he does play baseball and plays some summer hockey on the side, is playing hockey ok then?

Don't the kids get to hang out with their friends playing hockey too?

Hockey is a game just like any other game, isn't playing games what kids do? Aren't we actually encouraging them to be kids when we encourage them to play hockey?

I've heard all this talk about muscle overuse. I can see this problem occuring with goalies, but skaters? What overuse injuries are they susceptible to? Hockey is not a sport of rote repetition like bowling, tennis, or even golf. It is a total body workout. So I'm just curious about what injuries hockey players are at risk of due to overuse.

Just some questions I am posing to provoke thought and discussion.

[O-townClown]

I asked the same question about overuse injuries and have been told that it increases the risk of some hip issues later in life. Not as dramatic as Tommy John surgery.

[SCBlueLiner]

I asked the same question about overuse injuries and have been told that it increases the risk of some hip issues later in life. Not as dramatic as Tommy John surgery.

From everything I've read about this issue the studies, (which they never say anything other than "studies find". They don't tell you any details of the study, just that they found something), the studies tell us that those kids who train more than other kids incur more injuries. No kidding, the more you train and compete the more likely you are to get hurt. Hard to get hurt sitting on the couch.

The other thing they always talk about is overuse injuries. I totally understand that some sports can lead themselves to those types of injuries. Swimmers can get bad shoulders, they also face issues with core strength, tendon, and bone density issues due to the fact they are training in neutral buoyancy conditions. Baseball players, specifically pitchers, can throw their arms out. Tennis and bowling can lead to injuries due to the rote repetitions in those sports.

I suppose hockey players could be prone to hip issues because of the unnatural nature of a skating stride. I'd like to have somebody publish some studies though and not just USA Hockey saying "studies say". I'd like to think that later in life, well I guess a lot of know this, hip issues aren't near as big of a deal as the "battle of the bulge". I guess I'd like my kid to be active rather than sitting around playing X Box. I see too many kids his age fighting the "battle of the bulge" right now, which is way, way, way too early for that. Running the risk of potential future injuries is mild compared to diabetes due to childhood obesity.

[jg2112]

I asked the same question about overuse injuries and have been told that it increases the risk of some hip issues later in life. Not as dramatic as Tommy John surgery.

From everything I've read about this issue the studies, (which they never say anything other than "studies find". They don't tell you any details of the study, just that they found something), the studies tell us that those kids who train more than other kids incur more injuries. No kidding, the more you train and compete the more likely you are to get hurt. Hard to get hurt sitting on the couch.

The other thing they always talk about is overuse injuries. I totally understand that some sports can lead themselves to those types of injuries. Swimmers can get bad shoulders, they also face issues with core strength, tendon, and bone density issues due to the fact they are training in neutral buoyancy conditions. Baseball players, specifically pitchers, can throw their arms out. Tennis and bowling can lead to injuries due to the rote repetitions in those sports.

I suppose hockey players could be prone to hip issues because of the unnatural nature of a skating stride. I'd like to have somebody publish some studies though and not just USA Hockey saying "studies say". I'd like to think that later in life, well I guess a lot of know this, hip issues aren't near as big of a deal as the "battle of the bulge". I guess I'd like my kid to be active rather than sitting around playing X Box. I see too many kids his age fighting the "battle of the bulge" right now, which is way, way, way too early for that. Running the risk of potential future injuries is mild compared to diabetes due to childhood obesity.

I agree 100%. I see it argued over and over and over again that kids spend way too much time playing certain sports and they're being worked too hard this day and age.

Maybe it's true. However, if your kid is in a hypothetical "basket" of activities that take place every day of the week for 60 minutes (if your child plays summer hockey / baseball / soccer, for example), well, you're only having them do exactly what some medical companies have asked in highly publicized media campaigns.

I dunno - when I was growing up I played organized sports in the summer and THEN played more sports for hours with my friends. The issues of "specialization" and "overuse" were never mentioned or thought of. The main issue was "did I like what I was doing?" If the answer was yes then I'd do it.

I think hockey is a unique situation because of the situation required to play it. To play and develop most skills for ice hockey, one needs an ice rink (of course some stuff can be done dryland). You can't get one outside in the summer (no 2013 spring jokes please), so you have to make the special accommodation to go to a rink to practice your craft.

It's a weird argument to me, akin to me telling my kids to put away the soccer ball in the winter (when they kick it around in the basement) because I fear "overuse" issues. I agree with the OP - I see plenty of kids in my childrens' classes (K and 3rd grade) who are already 20-40 pounds overweight who don't do anything physically. We shouldn't discourage kids from being active, especially if they love what they're doing. So long as they're on board, make it happen.

[Deep Breath]

Very funny that there always seems to be somebody out there that thinks he/she knows what's best for you and your family. If your kid wants to play hockey 12 hours a day and you can make it work, do it. If your kid wants to play 9 sports each for 45 minutes every day and you can make it work, do it. Just wish people would worry a little more about what's transpiring under their own roofs and a little less about what is transpiring under the roofs of others.

[SnowedIn]

Good topic. Would really like to see a post of a gen-u-eyen study that addresses the prevalance of overuse injuries (or not) in hockey.

If you have one please post the source and results.

[Froggy Richards]

Good topic. Would really like to see a post of a gen-u-eyen study that addresses the prevalance of overuse injuries (or not) in hockey.

If you have one please post the source and results.

Just google "study overuse specialization in one sport" There are all kinds of results of studies published. Below is an interesting article from MN Hockey. While not an actual study, I think Dr. Andrews is well qualified to have an opinion.

Too Much of a Good Thing?
04/30/2013, 10:00am CDTBy Minnesota HockeyAn emerging trend of overuse injuries has many physicians concerned about the path of youth sports

.With about 45 million kids participating each year, organized sports play a prominent role in our society. Youth sports provide kids with exercise, entertainment and life lessons. Physicians across the country should be excited about the future of our health, but many are worried about an emerging trend of overuse injuries.

Dr. James Andrews who is famous for his work with professional athletes, including Adrian Peterson’s recent ACL surgery, noted in an interview with The Plain Dealer that he has witnessed a five to sevenfold increase in injuries in youth sports since 2000. He also noted that many of these injuries used to only be seen in mature, adult athletes.

Experts seem to be in agreement about what is causing this rise in overuse injuries: early specialization and the overwhelming desire to play professional sports. These two factors have been the driving force behind increases in the frequency and intensity of training before most young athletes are physically able to handle it.

To make matters worse, most of the time these injuries don’t show up immediately. A young athlete may not actually be affected until several years later. Safe Kids USA estimates that overuse injuries account for half of all injuries in middle school and high school. Many of those can be tied to problems with earlier training programs that are just starting to present issues.

Diagnosis and Treatment

Overuse injuries typically result from excessive and repeated use in a particular activity that end up affecting the athlete's bones, muscles or tendons. These aren’t caused by a single event but are a characterized by a series of small injuries to an immature body that eventually results in enough damage to require significant periods of rest to recover or even surgery in some cases.

These injuries are well publicized in certain sports. When you hear about youth or high school baseball players that already need or have undergone Tommy John surgery, the number one cause is overuse. In gymnastics, the sport’s focus on early specialization means many young girls end up with severe injuries like Sever’s disease, osteochondritis dissecans and stress fractures before they even become teenagers.

While it is a little bit more difficult to pinpoint overuse injuries in hockey, they are definitely still occurring. Common examples in hockey stem from three main areas: back, hip and knees. Each of these joints are continuously being impacted while playing hockey because of their role in players’ posture and skating stride.

In each of these cases, an overly intense training program at too young of an age leads to injuries that require significant periods of rest at the very time when these athletes need to be ramping up their training.

The Children’s Hospital in Boston recommends:

•Cross-train/Avoid early specialization: It is usually unwise for a child or teen to specialize in just one sport. Multi-sport athletes tend to not get as many overuse injuries as ones who just specialize in one sport.

[black sheep]

What exactly is early specialization? Seems to be a massive buzzword. When does it start?

[karl(east)]

The discussions we have on specialization always fascinate me. It would be interesting to pick Randolph's brain on this even further, as he's seen this issue from two very different angles. On the one hand, he's a coach; whatever you may think of the man, no one denies he wants to win, and while he is set in some ways, he can also be pretty flexible in trying to find that winning formula. And then, on the other side of the coin, he is also the father of a pretty good player who just finished coming up through the system, and obviously wanted the best for his son's hockey future. That doesn't mean what he says will be right, but he'd certainly have some interesting perspectives.

I will also play devil's advocate on a claim that often appears on these threads: "I'm my kid's parent, and I know what's best for him/her and everyone else should back off." It's certainly true that parents know the particularities of their own children better than some random guy commenting on a message board, or even the researcher who's studied the issue thoroughly from on high. But that doesn't mean they know exactly what is best for their children. Does anyone really know? We'd like to think we do. But love can be blinding, and parents often see what they want to see. And even the most clear-minded parents aren't guaranteed to get it right. No one really knows the future, knows all of the dark little thoughts running through their kids' brains, or can possibly have read and analyzed every little study ever produced on the topic.

My point here is that these decisions have to be made with a proper dose of humility. Be skeptical of the people preaching intensely on this issue, no matter which side they come from--and be skeptical of your own instincts, too. Yes, parents do know better than most when it comes to their kids, but hard-headed certainty that one knows all while others know nothing...that rarely ends well.

[InigoMontoya]

he has witnessed a five to sevenfold increase in injuries in youth sports since 2000. He also noted that many of these injuries used to only be seen in mature, adult athletes.

To make matters worse, most of the time these injuries don’t show up immediately. A young athlete may not actually be affected until several years later.

Which is it?



Every study or observation is loaded with assumptions about statistical correlations to make a point.

First, my guess is there weren't 45 million kids playing sports in 2000, so the number of injuries can increase without an increase in the rate of injury.
Second, an increase in the number of injuries a doctor sees does not mean that is the increase in injuries occurring; it could just be an increase in kids getting the injury fixed. Back in the olden days when a 13 year old pitcher 'threw his arm out', he played 1st base or quit playing; he didn’t have Tommy John surgery.
Third, which kids are getting hurt? There has been an explosion in participation numbers of soccer and now lacrosse – both cutting sports – and especially now in the number of girls playing; which any orthopedic surgeon will tell you, are more susceptible to knee ligament injuries. In the olden days the ex-football guys would limp around with bad knees, the ex-hockey guys did not seem hampered by.
Fourth, diagnosis and surgeries are better. Perhaps parents are choosing surgery so their kids can grow up to be active adults, playing tennis and participating in triathlons, rather than being relegated to being a pretty good high school athlete that now pitches slow pitch softball due to a trick knee.
Fifth, what is an injury? Do we have more concussions in high school football today, or are we just now calling them concussions? Back in the olden days, a kid that was misbehaving in class got sent to the assistant principals office to get paddled; today they are diagnosed ADHD and sent to a therapist.

[This is nuts!]

Let s face it the human body is not designed to do many of the things that ask it to do. Runners for instance, Knees, ankles, hips, shins, all will eventually fail to some extent or another because we are humans not cheetahs which were designed to run. But runners contiune to run because they love it and it brings them joy.

A kid/ adult has a much greater chance of being injured/killed/paralyzed in car accident then they ever will from over using their muscles. It doesn't mean we quit driving.

Let kids do what they love to do. Life is short. Skating for an hour 3-4 times a week is doing them much more good then it will ever do harm.

You cant prevent injuries, if you think you can, go live in bubble..

[InigoMontoya]

I'm also a little unclear on what is the "aha".

Randolph says they should play baseball, but none of the kids with him on the podium are going to play baseball. His actions speak louder than his words - if you want to be on the podium with me at the state tournament, don't play baseball. Lucia is oft quoted with the don't specialize stuff, but a look at the kids he recruits, and the experience of his own children is a lot of 'do what I say, not as I do'.

Tony, I think you had a better story in the 3 kids, not Randolph regurgitating the same tired old BS. They have likely put hockey above all else (or most else) and have so far succeeding in their goal. If what we are led to believe is true: do they miss having not played baseball, do they regret that they won't be attending prom, do they feel cheated that they didn't hang out at the local pool or DQ all summer with their buddies, do they have nagging repetetive sports injuries - and if so...is it all worth it?

[Deep Breath]

Good luck trying to convince families that little Sarah or Michael shouldn't go to hockey practice tomorrow night because they have already been on the ice TWICE this week and if they continue, they could develop physical issues sometime down the road. Or, maybe they won't. If your kid wants to play, let 'em. If he/she gets hurt; take him/her to the doctor. If they don't get hurt, take them to practice the next night.

[bemused]

I'm also a little unclear on what is the "aha".

Randolph says they should play baseball, but none of the kids with him on the podium are going to play baseball. His actions speak louder than his words - if you want to be on the podium with me at the state tournament, don't play baseball. Lucia is oft quoted with the don't specialize stuff, but a look at the kids he recruits, and the experience of his own children is a lot of 'do what I say, not as I do'.

Tony, I think you had a better story in the 3 kids, not Randolph regurgitating the same tired old BS. They have likely put hockey above all else (or most else) and have so far succeeding in their goal. If what we are led to believe is true: do they miss having not played baseball, do they regret that they won't be attending prom, do they feel cheated that they didn't hang out at the local pool or DQ all summer with their buddies, do they have nagging repetetive sports injuries - and if so...is it all worth it?

Truer than you know..Randolph has been running (for at least ten years) a camp that starts in April and runs through October and you skate at least two to four times a week. I can guarantee you that those kids on the podium and most of the kids on the last ten years teams all participated in it...

[Froggy Richards]

Very funny that there always seems to be somebody out there that thinks he/she knows what's best for you and your family. If your kid wants to play hockey 12 hours a day and you can make it work, do it. If your kid wants to play 9 sports each for 45 minutes every day and you can make it work, do it. Just wish people would worry a little more about what's transpiring under their own roofs and a little less about what is transpiring under the roofs of others.

Exactly! Who do these Doctors, Physical Therapists, Child Psychologists and Researchers think they are? They could have saved thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of their time if they would have just asked you what is best for the kids.

[YouthHockeyHub]

Ingo...good post.

I am merely reporting what I heard and am throwing it out there for discussion.

Anecdote: I have a very good childhood friend who went on to play D1, NHL, etc. He to this day regrets not playing baseball in HS, knowing what he knows now x number years later.

[Deep Breath]

[quote="Froggy Richards"][quote="Deep Breath"]Very funny that there always seems to be somebody out there that thinks he/she knows what's best for you and your family. If your kid wants to play hockey 12 hours a day and you can make it work, do it. If your kid wants to play 9 sports each for 45 minutes every day and you can make it work, do it. Just wish people would worry a little more about what's transpiring under their own roofs and a little less about what is transpiring under the roofs of others.[/quote]

Exactly! Who do these Doctors, Physical Therapists, Child Psychologists and Researchers think they are? They could have saved thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of their time if they would have just asked you what is best for the kids. [/quote]


Froggy-not "the" kids, "my" kids. If any of above-mentioned group want to raise my kids, just let me know and i will be sure to send all of the corresponding bills and expenses to them that go along with raising kids. Fact is, if my kids want to register to play in another golf tournament next month and they are healthy enough to do it even though they played golf three times already this month, i sure as heck am not going to deny them the opportunity because they may develop a sore shoulder 11 years from now.

[SCBlueLiner]

Back to the article.

The YouTube commercial for the Hockey Hall of Fame is funny, the one about Jimmy. Gave up his hockey dreams for a girl. I did something similar back when I was that age. That was over 20 yrs ago now, do I regret it?









Well..........we broke up within a year and a half, haven't seen her since, heard she married somebody else. So, yeah, I think my son is going to find dating difficult.

[InigoMontoya]

Exactly! Who do these Doctors, Physical Therapists, Child Psychologists and Researchers think they are? They could have saved thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of their time if they would have just asked you what is best for the kids.

There is no money in 'healthy'.

[Hock3yMom]

I find this topic really interesting. Have any of you read "Outliers" discussing birth month of Canadien hockey players? The whole basis is that achievement is less about "natural talent" and more about the number of hours training/games played. I guarentee that almost every highly talented kid in hockey logs more hours on/off the ice (regardless of it being scheduled or part of a team practice) than their less talented peers. If your kid wants to play hockey all the time... let them (if you can). If they like other sports, let them play other sports too... If they are hurt do as the doctor orders and let them recover... but you don't get good at hockey (or any sport) playing less hours than the other kids.

[barry_mcconnell]

My favorite are the parents that fib about how much their kids are playing during the summer. "Oh little Timmy? He's mostly just going to relax and maybe do a clinic or something." Then you find out little Timmy is playing on three AAA teams and skating full-day camps all summer long.

In most of the metro associations if your kid isn't skating significant summer ice hours he'll fall behind. As a parent you feel like you are letting your kid down if you don't get him those hours. And that feeling is what drives the money into AAA/summer hockey.

Not saying it's right or wrong. But, all things equal, if one kid gets 200 hours of ice over the summer and one doesn't, you'll see a difference in the fall. There are some rare naturally-gifted athletes that are an exception to this of course.

[SCBlueLiner]

My favorite are the parents that fib about how much their kids are playing during the summer. "Oh little Timmy? He's mostly just going to relax and maybe do a clinic or something." Then you find out little Timmy is playing on three AAA teams and skating full-day camps all summer long.

In most of the metro associations if your kid isn't skating significant summer ice hours he'll fall behind. As a parent you feel like you are letting your kid down if you don't get him those hours. And that feeling is what drives the money into AAA/summer hockey.

Not saying it's right or wrong. But, all things equal, if one kid gets 200 hours of ice over the summer and one doesn't, you'll see a difference in the fall. There are some rare naturally-gifted athletes that are an exception to this of course.

What is the popular consensus as to the "magic number" of hours of summer ice that is considered adequate to keep pace with peers? Obviously this will be based on age. For squirts? For PeeWees? For bantams? For High School?

Just curious.