I am stating the obvious here but the spring/summer AAA scene needs fewer teams and the organizers of tournaments need to do a better job of screening teams who sign up to play, instead of just "cashing the check."
Many of the teams at the Detroit tournament this past weekend at the 04, 03 and 02 levels shouldn't have been there. Last time I checked the economy remains tough and parents should get as much bang for their buck when they travel to out of town tournaments. Playing weaker teams and winning 8, 9, 12 or 15 to nothing is stupid and a waste of time and money.
Most coaches would rather lose playing against top competition than win playing weak teams. It does nothing for a player or team's development. The showdown in Motown was heavy on marketing on light on competition.
Hope this gets fixed.
Why AAA Needs to Change
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
Re: Why AAA Needs to Change
I disagree that there needs to be fewer teams. I say if a kid wants to play spring or summer hockey there should be a place for them to play and a tourney for them to enter. I do however agree with you that the tourneys need to do a better job of screening and there needs to be a better system in place for classifying teams in these tourney. Honestly with as many teams that are out there now there probably needs to be more than "Open", "Invite" and "Elite" you might need to add one or two others Maybe something a kin to winter hockey and label them:summerisforbaseball wrote:I am stating the obvious here but the spring/summer AAA scene needs fewer teams and the organizers of tournaments need to do a better job of screening teams who sign up to play, instead of just "cashing the check."
Many of the teams at the Detroit tournament this past weekend at the 04, 03 and 02 levels shouldn't have been there. Last time I checked the economy remains tough and parents should get as much bang for their buck when they travel to out of town tournaments. Playing weaker teams and winning 8, 9, 12 or 15 to nothing is stupid and a waste of time and money.
Most coaches would rather lose playing against top competition than win playing weak teams. It does nothing for a player or team's development. The showdown in Motown was heavy on marketing on light on competition.
Hope this gets fixed.
A
AA
AAA Open
AAA Invite
AAA Elite
That might help folks choose more appropriately and it might also allow more tourneys to flurish without mucking up the scene as they say
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old goalie85
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You could say that about 95% of the tournaments that go on in the "Elite" level. Chicago had the same deal with a lot of questionable admissions into the "elite" pool. They aren't the only tournaments. There are really only a handful of tourneys for youth hockey players that have "elite" teams from top to bottom. The hope for all "elite" teams is to go to a tournament with more elite teams than not. There is always going to be a creampuff at any tourney.
If you look at Minneapolis, Chicago and Detroit closely, you will find that there are really only two elite teams from each region in a given birth year. In Mn, there is a strong third team a lot of times at each level that gives the top two teams some competition. In Detroit, its usually Compuware, Belle Tire, Honeybaked and Little Caesars and not all are always strong. Usually 2 or 3 of them at each birth year depending on how the recruiting and talent pool shake out.
So, every "elite" tourney has teams that will not be elite. Its tough to get all the same teams in the same tournament for numerous reason. It sounds like a lot of our MN teams go some great competition in Detroit and Chicago this last weekend and it always nice to hear MN kids do well!
If you look at Minneapolis, Chicago and Detroit closely, you will find that there are really only two elite teams from each region in a given birth year. In Mn, there is a strong third team a lot of times at each level that gives the top two teams some competition. In Detroit, its usually Compuware, Belle Tire, Honeybaked and Little Caesars and not all are always strong. Usually 2 or 3 of them at each birth year depending on how the recruiting and talent pool shake out.
So, every "elite" tourney has teams that will not be elite. Its tough to get all the same teams in the same tournament for numerous reason. It sounds like a lot of our MN teams go some great competition in Detroit and Chicago this last weekend and it always nice to hear MN kids do well!
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summerisforbaseball
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JSR, I like your idea about classifying the levels differently than the way it is done now. Couple people have said Chicago was pretty good at the AAA and elite levels at most levels from a competition standpoint. Better than LY. Consensus is Detroit wasn't worth the money/time. Too many meaningless games. Too expensive of a sport to show up to a tourney to only get 1 or 2 competitive games. Some sort of pre screenng is needed.
Consensus? I love it when by talking to one person, maybe two that their is a "consensus". How is playing teams from those hockey hotbeds like AZ and DC and third rate teams from Chi town (Fury) elite competition? The only elite teams in Chicago were the Blades and Bauer Selects along with LC at the 01 level and Honeybaked at 00's along with that CA brick team at 03's. I was in Chicago and saw a lot of poseurs. I'm sure they saw the same in Detroit...some elite competition and poseurs. Someone does need to regulate a little better. There should be some criteria to meet to tighten things up. Seems like Canadian tourneys have it under control better.
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Froggy Richards
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Re: Why AAA Needs to Change
Yep, I'd say you pretty much summed up what is wrong with AAA hockey.summerisforbaseball wrote:Last time I checked the economy remains tough and parents should get as much bang for their buck when they travel to out of town tournaments.
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summerisforbaseball
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TexMex, consensus was probably the wrong word. I wasn't trying to over state the info. I will clarify. Spoke with parents from 04's, 03's and 02's as well as a coach from 04's and 02's. the theme was that it was a lot of money for pretty weak competition and the tourney wasn't very organized. Not a wrong or right thing. Just think the tourneys need to pre-screen better to maximize family budgets. And you're right, Chicago had some weak teams in both AAA avid elite brackets but it was viewed as being well run.
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SCBlueLiner
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MrBoDangles
- Posts: 4090
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Yep, it's stupid.observer wrote:Exactly. It would be one thing if the Chicago or Detroit teams traveled here frequently but that doesn't seem to be the case. So why do we make it convenient for them? Make them come here by not going there.Simple solution, stay in Minnesota for your summer tournaments.
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O-townClown
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- Location: Typical homeboy from the O-Town
The beauty about Spring/Summer hockey is that anything goes.
The problem with Spring/Summer hockey is that anything goes.
Are you serious that a tournament should label their level "A" or "AA" when everyone wants to bill their tournament as "elite" in order to attract entrants? Sure, that'll work.
The best kids get asked first. The next rung are pretty good and their parents want them to play too. Kids that never get asked finally get asked and they want to play. Not all parents can figure out, "hey wait, if someone is asking my kid maybe the team isn't very good."
Leave it as is and let the market decide. No phony labels are needed. Just go where you want and if it isn't what you want don't go. Don't fault the system when you don't want to look in the mirror to see who made the mistake.
It isn't at all unusual that someone tells me they went to a Minnesota tournament and beat all these Minnesota AAA teams handily. Of course, when I look into it I find out they traveled to Minnesota to play second division. Some people feel good when the competition isn't real great.
For the most part the mismatches are fewer as the kids age. Same with soccer. Just takes a couple years to get there.[/list]
The problem with Spring/Summer hockey is that anything goes.
Are you serious that a tournament should label their level "A" or "AA" when everyone wants to bill their tournament as "elite" in order to attract entrants? Sure, that'll work.
The best kids get asked first. The next rung are pretty good and their parents want them to play too. Kids that never get asked finally get asked and they want to play. Not all parents can figure out, "hey wait, if someone is asking my kid maybe the team isn't very good."
Leave it as is and let the market decide. No phony labels are needed. Just go where you want and if it isn't what you want don't go. Don't fault the system when you don't want to look in the mirror to see who made the mistake.
It isn't at all unusual that someone tells me they went to a Minnesota tournament and beat all these Minnesota AAA teams handily. Of course, when I look into it I find out they traveled to Minnesota to play second division. Some people feel good when the competition isn't real great.
For the most part the mismatches are fewer as the kids age. Same with soccer. Just takes a couple years to get there.[/list]
Be kind. Rewind.
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Section 8 guy
- Posts: 540
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One of the other issues is organizers wanting to fill their tournaments. They're shooting for 8, 12 or 16 teams to fill brackets. For scheduling ease, and money, they want a full tourney. When the tourney is 4 weeks out and they still have openings they semi-panic and allow lesser teams entry into their "Elite" bracket. Then it trickles down from there.
It's a good thing for teams to test their strength and try a higher level tourney but hopefully they know what they're doing and not exposing themselves to getting blown out and not having fun. Fine balance especially at the younger ages when they may not know where they belong quite yet as they haven't been tested or seen a lot of competition.
2 levels is fine or the team simply shouldn't be there. It's easy for us in Minnesota because there is no need to travel. Other teams in other states have it more difficult to find the right tourneys.
It's a good thing for teams to test their strength and try a higher level tourney but hopefully they know what they're doing and not exposing themselves to getting blown out and not having fun. Fine balance especially at the younger ages when they may not know where they belong quite yet as they haven't been tested or seen a lot of competition.
2 levels is fine or the team simply shouldn't be there. It's easy for us in Minnesota because there is no need to travel. Other teams in other states have it more difficult to find the right tourneys.
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Froggy Richards
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I found it even funnier how his whole post was about parents getting a return on their investment. No mention of whether or not the kids had fun or enjoyed the trip to Detroit.Section 8 guy wrote:Did anyone else find the humor in a guy with a handle of "summerisforbaseball" starting a thread about how Spring/summer hockey has to change after being at a tournament in Detroit?
Am I seeing this correctly that a group of 8-9 year olds are going to Detroit to play hockey. Why? We have loads of arena's and stupid AAA tournaments in this state.
Parents...I honestly don't get them. That's what has ruined AAA hockey. The kids would have fun if they played in a tournament in glencoe.
Parents...I honestly don't get them. That's what has ruined AAA hockey. The kids would have fun if they played in a tournament in glencoe.
I liken it to cock fighting. Throwing your player and team in the ring and see how they do. Dads on the glass is a visual similar to that now banned sport.
Bernie and other organizations also have some trade offs with organizations traveling to their tourney so they will return the favor.
For as much as Minnesota teams travel I'm not sure I'm seeing the same return by out of state teams. We also know that Chicago and Detroit teams just finished spending $20,000 on their winter season so generally speaking their pockets may be emptier than ours.
Bernie and other organizations also have some trade offs with organizations traveling to their tourney so they will return the favor.
For as much as Minnesota teams travel I'm not sure I'm seeing the same return by out of state teams. We also know that Chicago and Detroit teams just finished spending $20,000 on their winter season so generally speaking their pockets may be emptier than ours.
Tigers33 wrote:Am I seeing this correctly that a group of 8-9 year olds are going to Detroit to play hockey. Why? We have loads of arena's and stupid AAA tournaments in this state.
Parents...I honestly don't get them. That's what has ruined AAA hockey. The kids would have fun if they played in a tournament in glencoe.
Exactly, kids don`t like to miss school for a hockey trip, kids don`t like to fly on a plane, kids don`t like to stay in hotels, kids don`t like to play different teams, kids don`t like to see the national developement center.
Re: Why AAA Needs to Change
"Many of the teams at the Detroit tournament this past weekend at the 04, 03 and 02 levels shouldn't have been there. "
Hey SIFBB, last time I checked there was not an 04 level at this Tourney. Yes there was one 04 team in the 03 division, which was a fill in for the 03 Toronto team that dropped out last minute. And yes they did get crushed but to their credit they played hard and got better till the end. Their coaches didn't want to do it but they needed to fill the spot. Too bad they couldn't have got 03 Honeybaked or Compuware or another team to be competitive. I would check the reliability of your source. He may have been too wrapped up with the bombing coverage or even with Elle McPherson being at the rink. The other two teams in the 03 level were good teams. One from Aspen, half Aspen and half Detroit kids and 03 Little Caesars which is the 03 Detroit Brick Team. Yes it was along way to go but it was a nice change. Rink was two miles from the Hotel, the Arena was a nice 4 sheet complex with a middle commons area. All the games were one location. Not quite as nice as Super Rink, but still nice. One of the Best parts was there was Green Grass and you could wear shorts, not blazing hot by any means but a nice escape. It would have been nice to go to Chi Town for the competition, but from what I heard, "from a Reliable Source" was it was very wet in many places and getting around added a little hassle due to the flooding of many roads. And Actually if Summer was for anything else besides Hockey, it is for Lacrosse, which is one of the fastest growing sports in MN at a rate of 20 - 30 % a year. Sorry had to throw that in to stir the pot.... javascript:emoticon(':D')
Hey SIFBB, last time I checked there was not an 04 level at this Tourney. Yes there was one 04 team in the 03 division, which was a fill in for the 03 Toronto team that dropped out last minute. And yes they did get crushed but to their credit they played hard and got better till the end. Their coaches didn't want to do it but they needed to fill the spot. Too bad they couldn't have got 03 Honeybaked or Compuware or another team to be competitive. I would check the reliability of your source. He may have been too wrapped up with the bombing coverage or even with Elle McPherson being at the rink. The other two teams in the 03 level were good teams. One from Aspen, half Aspen and half Detroit kids and 03 Little Caesars which is the 03 Detroit Brick Team. Yes it was along way to go but it was a nice change. Rink was two miles from the Hotel, the Arena was a nice 4 sheet complex with a middle commons area. All the games were one location. Not quite as nice as Super Rink, but still nice. One of the Best parts was there was Green Grass and you could wear shorts, not blazing hot by any means but a nice escape. It would have been nice to go to Chi Town for the competition, but from what I heard, "from a Reliable Source" was it was very wet in many places and getting around added a little hassle due to the flooding of many roads. And Actually if Summer was for anything else besides Hockey, it is for Lacrosse, which is one of the fastest growing sports in MN at a rate of 20 - 30 % a year. Sorry had to throw that in to stir the pot.... javascript:emoticon(':D')
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Froggy Richards
- Posts: 623
- Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:15 am
Re: Why AAA Needs to Change
Lacrosse is a good game, but nothing beats baseball in the summer. You'll never hear anyone singing, "Lacrosse, Hot Dogs, Apple Pie and Chevrolet."Bullseye wrote:"Many of the teams at the Detroit tournament this past weekend at the 04, 03 and 02 levels shouldn't have been there. "
Hey SIFBB, last time I checked there was not an 04 level at this Tourney. Yes there was one 04 team in the 03 division, which was a fill in for the 03 Toronto team that dropped out last minute. And yes they did get crushed but to their credit they played hard and got better till the end. Their coaches didn't want to do it but they needed to fill the spot. Too bad they couldn't have got 03 Honeybaked or Compuware or another team to be competitive. I would check the reliability of your source. He may have been too wrapped up with the bombing coverage or even with Elle McPherson being at the rink. The other two teams in the 03 level were good teams. One from Aspen, half Aspen and half Detroit kids and 03 Little Caesars which is the 03 Detroit Brick Team. Yes it was along way to go but it was a nice change. Rink was two miles from the Hotel, the Arena was a nice 4 sheet complex with a middle commons area. All the games were one location. Not quite as nice as Super Rink, but still nice. One of the Best parts was there was Green Grass and you could wear shorts, not blazing hot by any means but a nice escape. It would have been nice to go to Chi Town for the competition, but from what I heard, "from a Reliable Source" was it was very wet in many places and getting around added a little hassle due to the flooding of many roads. And Actually if Summer was for anything else besides Hockey, it is for Lacrosse, which is one of the fastest growing sports in MN at a rate of 20 - 30 % a year. Sorry had to throw that in to stir the pot.... javascript:emoticon(':D')
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Froggy Richards
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- Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:15 am
They should just have the parents play these games. Then they can get their return on investment and the kids would still have fun watching the games, hanging out at the hotel and just being kids. It's a win win!Tigers33 wrote:Am I seeing this correctly that a group of 8-9 year olds are going to Detroit to play hockey. Why? We have loads of arena's and stupid AAA tournaments in this state.
Parents...I honestly don't get them. That's what has ruined AAA hockey. The kids would have fun if they played in a tournament in glencoe.
I think you are majorly excagerrating when you say the Blades and Bauer Selects were the "only elite teams in Chicago". '03 level had alot more than just the CA brick team, two Jr Blackhawks teams, Warrior Wizards and I keep hearing the '03 Miracle Gold is really good and they only won one game in pool play and the Bauer Selects didn;t make it out of pool play either at the 03 level, so I'd say there must have been some elite teams there... At the '02 level EuroAmerican Red, HP Falcons and Mission surely were "elite" in addition to the ones you named. At the '01 level Blades, Mauer Selects, Littles Ceasars, Chicago Mission were all clearly elite. 2000 level the Blades did not even make it out of pool play but the Bauer Selects, Honeybaked, Bauer Selects West, EuroAmerican, Chicago Mission, DHI Octane, DC Selects, and Warrior Wizards all made it to the quarter finals yet you say only 3 teams were "elite"Texmex wrote:Consensus? I love it when by talking to one person, maybe two that their is a "consensus". How is playing teams from those hockey hotbeds like AZ and DC and third rate teams from Chi town (Fury) elite competition? The only elite teams in Chicago were the Blades and Bauer Selects along with LC at the 01 level and Honeybaked at 00's along with that CA brick team at 03's. I was in Chicago and saw a lot of poseurs. I'm sure they saw the same in Detroit...some elite competition and poseurs. Someone does need to regulate a little better. There should be some criteria to meet to tighten things up. Seems like Canadian tourneys have it under control better.
.. at the 99 level the Blades made it to the quarter finals but no further as you had Bauer Selects, Vancouver Snipers, Belle Tire and the Mission all in the semis finals... I don't disagree that some teams play in the elite level that probably shouldn't but I think you underestimate how many teams in Chicago did deserve to play at that level...... 
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Shinbone_News
- Posts: 458
- Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:50 am
Just a note on the Detroit tournament, which was not the Showdown in Motown -- that comes next week -- it was the Elite Prospects tournament, and seemed to be geared mostly to U18s and U16s (that's the only groups for which there were even rosters, partial, available only online).
Machine won at every level they played, but there were some excellent games along the way, and I for one enjoyed seeing how our kids matched up against some of Detroit's finest. The 01s lost their championship to a very good Winnipeg selects team (which will be back for Stars and Stripes in two weeks) that beat them twice in close matches. But the Machine beat Belle Tire 01 twice -- the Detroit AAA Tier 1 team that has been MI state champion the last two years -- and they beat Victory Honda 01 as well, another Tier 1 AAA team. (I was told this team is "rebuilding" with a new coach -- they struggled a bit.)
The 00s had a heck of a championship game against Victory Honda 00s -- behind by two goals going into the third, but busting it open for a runaway win. (Lots of the same kids played in this game as in the celebrated Edina PWAA - Detroit series this past winter. Detroit parents kept asking me how many Edina kids were on the Machine.) I didn't see much of the other age groups, but I know the 02s did drop one close game and bounced back to win their ship.
Folks looking for an apples-to-apples comparison between Tier 1 AAA and Minnesota hockey got exactly that with these games, at least at the 00 and 01 levels. Was it worth the time and money spent? Probably a different answer from every parent.
Machine won at every level they played, but there were some excellent games along the way, and I for one enjoyed seeing how our kids matched up against some of Detroit's finest. The 01s lost their championship to a very good Winnipeg selects team (which will be back for Stars and Stripes in two weeks) that beat them twice in close matches. But the Machine beat Belle Tire 01 twice -- the Detroit AAA Tier 1 team that has been MI state champion the last two years -- and they beat Victory Honda 01 as well, another Tier 1 AAA team. (I was told this team is "rebuilding" with a new coach -- they struggled a bit.)
The 00s had a heck of a championship game against Victory Honda 00s -- behind by two goals going into the third, but busting it open for a runaway win. (Lots of the same kids played in this game as in the celebrated Edina PWAA - Detroit series this past winter. Detroit parents kept asking me how many Edina kids were on the Machine.) I didn't see much of the other age groups, but I know the 02s did drop one close game and bounced back to win their ship.
Folks looking for an apples-to-apples comparison between Tier 1 AAA and Minnesota hockey got exactly that with these games, at least at the 00 and 01 levels. Was it worth the time and money spent? Probably a different answer from every parent.
Not sure I'd go sso far as calling it an apples to apples comparison considering you said yourself the 2000 game against VH had "lots of kids" but not all the same kids and it's hard to say if the replacements were better, worse or the same but oen thing that wasn't was their pactice time together... Also, MN hockey is assoication hockey, this is spring hockey so if you are saying this is what a Tier 1 team COULD look like in MN then I'll buy into that but in reality you would need that MN team to play the winter versions of these Tier 1 teams to get an actual apples to apples comparison if you catch my driftShinbone_News wrote:Just a note on the Detroit tournament, which was not the Showdown in Motown -- that comes next week -- it was the Elite Prospects tournament, and seemed to be geared mostly to U18s and U16s (that's the only groups for which there were even rosters, partial, available only online).
Machine won at every level they played, but there were some excellent games along the way, and I for one enjoyed seeing how our kids matched up against some of Detroit's finest. The 01s lost their championship to a very good Winnipeg selects team (which will be back for Stars and Stripes in two weeks) that beat them twice in close matches. But the Machine beat Belle Tire 01 twice -- the Detroit AAA Tier 1 team that has been MI state champion the last two years -- and they beat Victory Honda 01 as well, another Tier 1 AAA team. (I was told this team is "rebuilding" with a new coach -- they struggled a bit.)
The 00s had a heck of a championship game against Victory Honda 00s -- behind by two goals going into the third, but busting it open for a runaway win. (Lots of the same kids played in this game as in the celebrated Edina PWAA - Detroit series this past winter. Detroit parents kept asking me how many Edina kids were on the Machine.) I didn't see much of the other age groups, but I know the 02s did drop one close game and bounced back to win their ship.
Folks looking for an apples-to-apples comparison between Tier 1 AAA and Minnesota hockey got exactly that with these games, at least at the 00 and 01 levels. Was it worth the time and money spent? Probably a different answer from every parent.