Section Realignment

[HShockeywatcher]

Hmm, interesting. Technically Hermantown belongs in 7a, and either Marshall or denfeld in 5a ...or all in 7a if it could balance by numbers.

And it can, easily. Which is why I ask the question. That is all.

[east hockey]

Hmm, interesting. Technically Hermantown belongs in 7a, and either Marshall or denfeld in 5a ...or all in 7a if it could balance by numbers.

With the merger of Silver Bay and Two Harbors, I look for Hermantown or Proctor to be put back into 7A. This year, if things work out, you will have three Duluth or suburban Duluth teams at state. So, I'm hoping Proctor moves, Hermantown stays. Who know what the heck the state league will end up doing?

Lee

[greenway1969]

I'll be surprised if Hermantown and Proctorr do not return to Section 7A, much to the displeasure of the Range.

[DubCHAGuy]

I've posted this in other thread and it seems to go no where, but I'll post it again:
While geography is clearly used, in both classes you can clearly see that it's not the only thing. If geography were the only thing, there are many teams that would be in different sections. I understand keeping sections 7 and 8 separate despite the numbers, but, beyond that, some of the decisions seem arbitrary. From Apollo and Cathedral not being in the same section to Hermantown and Denfeld not in the same section, there are clearly some weird decisions being made.

I have no dog in this fight, as the expression goes, I'm just looking for more explanation as others are.

The lines have to be drawn somewhere.... Class A sections have about 10 to 12 teams per section when they are drawn up. If you look at 7A, you will see the section has nine teams and section 5 has 11. But remember that when the lines were drawn, Section 7 had 10 teams, (Two Harbors and Silver Bay). The Duluth schools just happened to be the most southern out of the 10 schools, so that was where they drew the line.

You might remember back when Duluth had three Class A schools (before Central closed) one of the Duluth schools was in 5 and the other two in seven

All Class A sections have 9-12 schools in them. There are 2 of each size in them.

I remember these things, as well as plenty others. You could stay within the same size ranges and make things much more logical.
There are some issues with AA also, as well as other sports. AAAA basketball as some weird things down by Lakeville as well.
I'm not saying I care that much, just simply pointing out that if geography, things like drive time for section games, potential revenue, etc, were actually the only thing considered, many sections would likely look very different.

I'm not taking any sort of a jab, but there is clearly something else at play. There is also some way they determine how to decide where to draw lines. Take 5A football for example. There are plenty of teams that could be placed in one section just as easily as another.

Is it 4 guys situation down with an algorithm, is it some guys flipping a coin, or what criteria go into these decisions? That's all I'm asking. If people don't know, speculating does little for the discussion.

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/googlemap_new.asp

I'm pretty sure it's a few guys (I would guess more than 4) sitting around and there is no algorithm involved. Probably not more than a couple hockey people. As I've said, it's basically all geography (at least that's the company line of the MSHSL.

In AA, it's pretty clear it's all about geography. Looks like they started at the Iowa border and made the numbered sections. Pretty easy using a simple road map.

1AA- the 9 southern most schools in the state
2AA- schools west of 35E and south of crosstown or Hwy 5 once you get outside the 494 loop (yes, Edina is 1/2 mile north of 62, but they're the next closest school to make an 8 team section. We don't need them in 6AA!)
3AA- Schools East of 35E (ok, Cretin is 1/2 mile west of 35E) and south of I94
4AA- remaining schools east of 35E but north of I94 up to the 35 merger in Hugo. Not enough teams? Ok, change 35E to 35W, adding Roseville, Como, and Mounds View.
5AA- Schools west of 35W (where 4AA left off) but north of 694/94, but no further north than Hwy 10 (Again, Anoka HS is less than a mile north of 10)
6AA-west of 35W but south of 694/494
7AA/8AA- everyone else divided into East/West

Centennial is the only school i can think of that doesn't fit their description. My only guess would be that when they moved to the NW suburban, the MSHSL moved them for the playoffs too, proving they are willing to be flexible.

[defense]

If you don't want the top talent playing at the X come March, that's your deal. I for one, like to see the best teams playing in the state tournament and I believe the sections should be realigned so that perennial contenders are not all stacked in two or three sections. Call me crazy, but I've been paying my $190 a year for far too long to repeatedly see below average teams from 1AA get a free pass to the tourney.

You can save a pile of cash to go wacth your dream teams at Excel in December, the janitor might even let you in the back door for free.

What's your problem with the south/west suburbs? Sorry if whatever school/region you come from has been less competitive recently but the point of the tournament is to showcase the most talented teams in the state, so in MY opinion, the sections should be aligned as such. If you disagree with that then this discussion is over, as I cannot change the mind of someone with such deep-bred ignorance.

In your opinion great! The best eight in the state should go..but in the actual spirit of the tournament back to its inception the state tournament was all about bringing the best team from each of eight different geographic regions together .. ever see hunger games??

[hockeydad]

All Class A sections have 9-12 schools in them. There are 2 of each size in them.


http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/googlemap_new.asp

As I said, when the drew up the sections, they all had 10-12 teams. The League's criteria says that the sections should not vary by more than two teams in the first year of the cycle. After the sections were drawn up in early 2011, Sleepy Eye dropped its program and its players went to New Ulm and Silver Bay and Two Harbors combined into North Shore. That is why Section 3 and Section 7 have only nine teams this year.

[GopherRock]

I'm pretty sure it's a few guys (I would guess more than 4) sitting around and there is no algorithm involved. Probably not more than a couple hockey people. As I've said, it's basically all geography (at least that's the company line of the MSHSL.

In AA, it's pretty clear it's all about geography. Looks like they started at the Iowa border and made the numbered sections. Pretty easy using a simple road map.

1AA- the 9 southern most schools in the state
2AA- schools west of 35E and south of crosstown or Hwy 5 once you get outside the 494 loop (yes, Edina is 1/2 mile north of 62, but they're the next closest school to make an 8 team section. We don't need them in 6AA!)
3AA- Schools East of 35E (ok, Cretin is 1/2 mile west of 35E) and south of I94
4AA- remaining schools east of 35E but north of I94 up to the 35 merger in Hugo. Not enough teams? Ok, change 35E to 35W, adding Roseville, Como, and Mounds View.
5AA- Schools west of 35W (where 4AA left off) but north of 694/94, but no further north than Hwy 10 (Again, Anoka HS is less than a mile north of 10)
6AA-west of 35W but south of 694/494
7AA/8AA- everyone else divided into East/West

Centennial is the only school i can think of that doesn't fit their description. My only guess would be that when they moved to the NW suburban, the MSHSL moved them for the playoffs too, proving they are willing to be flexible.

Having done some mock realignment, I can tell you that dots on a map are the only way the League does their sections. The sections probably (and this is just speculation by me) get filled in the following order:

1AA: Southeast Minnesota.
2AA: Southwest Minnesota. Don't laugh, in all the other big-school sports (basketball, baseball, , Section 2 generally contains the Mankato schools, Marshall, Willmar, Hutch, etc. The only reason hockey 2AA goes as far into the metro as it does is that none of the large schools are big enough to be AA for hockey. If New Ulm gets bumped up, an the combined enrollments of the schools in their co-op says they will, this is where they'll end up.
8AA: Northwest.
7AA: Duluth/Range/NE MN. Much like Section 2, the only reason it goes as far into the metro as it does is that there are very few AA schools left up north. If anything, I'm surprised that Centennial hasn't been sent north. Of the teams left, they're the easiest ones to hop on I-35 and head north.
3AA: South Suburban Conference. There's enough teams south of the Minnesota River that didn't get taken by either Sections 1 or 2 to form the nucleus of a section. Balance with 4AA (coming west from the St. Croix River) on some of the border schools.
Split whoever is left between 5AA and 6AA, north/south.

[goldy313]

I'll take a stab at this....

By rule the top 64 enrollments are in AA, the rest in A. You can opt up a class and this past cycle 8 teams did that; Cloquet, Grand Rapids, Roseau, Bemidji, Benilde, Holy Family,Holy Angels, and Hill-Murray. Assuming those 8 opt up again and we add the 2 teams; St. Thomas Academy and Rogers who have indicated they are opting up we'll have 74 teams in AA. Divide those up and that's 6 sections with 9 teams and two sections with 10.

This past cycle their were 12 co-ops in AA, 5 were in AA anyhow, 5 were way over the limit, and 2; St. Cloud Tech and Northern Lakes could drop a school and be back in A (St Cloud Tech won't be in A even if they do drop Holdingford next year I believe). New Ulm should be in AA next year but if they drop even 1 school they too will be below the cutoff. LeSeuer was below the cutoff barely. I think Rochester Century will fall below the cutoff and will either be A or opt up and either New Ulm, LeSeuer, or Henry Sibley replaces Century in the top 64.

1AA (9 or 10) adds Hastings if Century ends up in A or opts up
2AA (9) adds New Ulm and/or LeSeuer
3AA (9) loses Hastings and adds St Thomas
4AA (9) adds Henry Sibley
5AA (10) adds Rogers
6AA (9) unchanged
7AA (9) unchanged
8AA (10) unchanged

If New Ulm or LeSeuer aren't in AA then either Eagan or Apple Valley will end up in 2AA. Of course I could also see a scenario where the Lakeville schools move to 2AA and the southern schools of LeSeuer and New Ulm go to 1AA.

In A my guess is there will be a clockwise shift from the south to the northwest, maybe west of I35.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

Sibley is in A, is there a possibility they will move up? I haven't heard that.

Moving Eagan and/or Apple Valley to 2AA would NOT be a good thing.

In the past, if a team opted up the lowest-enrollment AA scholl moved down. Is that still the case?

[goldy313]

Sibley is in A, is there a possibility they will move up? I haven't heard that.

Moving Eagan and/or Apple Valley to 2AA would NOT be a good thing.

In the past, if a team opted up the lowest-enrollment AA scholl moved down. Is that still the case?

Sibley is the biggest A school, that's the only reaon I used them. Century's enrollment and demographics should put them below 1200. The Rochester school district as of Oct. 2012 has Century with an enrollment of 1325 and a F/R lunch rate of about 30%. Maybe another school will pass Sibley in enrollment like Rogers, I just used the last numbers and that's how I ended up with Sibley.

Teams that opt up have always been added to the largest class, no one has been taken away because someone opted up. That's why in hockey there are always more than 64 AA teams.

[BP]

Please, please, please do something about 3A. It's a disaster every year. I propose you move Delano, Orono, and Mound into that section like in the late 90's. I'd be fine with it if they would compete, but getting blown every quarterfinal isn't good. The three teams above are somewhat close in proximity to Litchfield, Hutch, etc and would make sense. Then, bump a team from 4A to 2A, like Spring Lake Park. Then, 2A would have 9 teams (Breck, Blake, Prov, Chaska, Waconia, MA, St. Louis Park, Richfield, Spring Lake Park) , 4A would have 10 (Totino, Mahtomedi, SSP, Simley, SPA, Chisago, Johnson, Achiever, Highland, Sibley), and 3A would have 12 (Delano, Mound, Orono, Luverne, NU, Marshall, Hutch, Windom, Worthington, Fairmont, Redwood Valley, LDC). Or just 2 of 3 to 3A (Maybe keep Mound in 2A). Some combination....

Thoughts????

[EliteHockeyMind]

I have heard rumblings that STA will be in 3AA now when they move up, and Cretin-Derham Hall will be bumped to 4AA.

If this is the case, bummer since STA and CDH have good rivalries. But CDH has been subpar ever since they won state in '06 and lost Hickey and McDonagh. I wonder if CDH will stop recruiting for football and baseball and start looking for hockey talent ever again.

Looks like STA should have a decent chance every year to make the AA tournament. They just need their premier talent to stick around and not leave like Jordan Schroeder or Anders Lee. But they typically have the best "recruiting class" each year so they should be fine to stick around for the long haul in AA.

[goldy313]

Century opted up in both boys and girls hockey for the next two years. AD Mark Kuisle sent a tweet out announcing that today.

[The Talon]

That bc Kuisle refuses to schedule LHS and sure as hell doesn't want to play them in Sections.

[Metrohockeyfan]

Don't know how the MSHSL could look at some of these section final games, and not have a major section realignment.

[Chalk_Talk]

Don't know how the MSHSL could look at some of these section final games, and not have a major section realignment.

Are the teams traveling too fare to play the games?

I'm all about seeing good hockey at state, people just don't realize that it's not how you good you are, it's about representing your area of the state, and being the best in that area. That's who goes to state. its the system that' needs to be fixed, if you have a problem with who is going to state.

[The51]

Everyone is talking about having every part of the state represented at the tourney, but I don't hear anyone saying we should change 7AA or 8AA. They bring competitive teams to the X every year. The section I see everyone having a problem with is 1AA. But is either of the Lakeville's really that much better a representative of southern MN, than say Edina, Eden Prairie, Prior Lake, or Burnsville?

[Detlef]

This past cycle their were 12 co-ops in AA, 5 were in AA anyhow, 5 were way over the limit, and 2; St. Cloud Tech and Northern Lakes could drop a school and be back in A (St Cloud Tech won't be in A even if they do drop Holdingford next year I believe). New Ulm should be in AA next year but if they drop even 1 school they too will be below the cutoff. LeSeuer was below the cutoff barely. I think Rochester Century will fall below the cutoff and will either be A or opt up and either New Ulm, LeSeuer, or Henry Sibley replaces Century in the top 64.

There's got to be a cutoff at some point, but seems that the MSHSL should have a higher cutoff (less Class AA teams). That's certainly seems true if New Ulm gets put into Class AA. They've gotten roasted at state the last few years, so I'd think getting put in with AA would kill any optimism that they have. They've played 6 state games and their closest they lost by 4, with having given up double-digit goals in three of them. Maybe it's me but short of STA, Breck, Blake, Marshall, Hermantown, Warroad and probably some others all deciding to play up I can't see them even doing well in the Class A state tourney.

Doesn't seem LeSeur or Henry Sibley would be better than New Ulm.

What it seems to me is that there should be less Class AA teams, so you'd have a very competive Class AA and Class A would be competive too, instead of being dominated by a handful of teams like it is now. There's the money issue, but I'm guessing the remaining few Class AA teams would be able to travel more than the Class A teams are.

Everyone is talking about having every part of the state represented at the tourney, but I don't hear anyone saying we should change 7AA or 8AA. They bring competitive teams to the X every year. The section I see everyone having a problem with is 1AA. But is either of the Lakeville's really that much better a representative of southern MN, than say Edina, Eden Prairie, Prior Lake, or Burnsville?

I don't like seeing either of the Lakeville at state instead of a southern MN school, but for Class AA I really can't see anyway around that. Not for a while anyhow, I've heard the city of Rochester is growing so maybe sometime down the road? The opposite is true for the 7AA, NE Minnesota is shrinking.

Really I could see 7AA and 8AA end up merging at some point. Even now I think it would make sense, even though it would make me sad to see only 1 northern team at state.

[TTpuckster]

Put Edina, Hill Murray & STA in 6AA.

Wouldn't that still pretty much be all Edina kids playing against each other?

[The51]

So I took what I thought to be the top 32 or so programs (adjusted a little for location) and split them into the 8 sections and this is what I came up with. I feel this would give us great competitive balance for sections and getting the top teams to state.

1AA- Burnsville, Lakeville North, Lakeville South, Prior Lake

2AA- Cretin-Derham Hall, Eagan, St. Thomas, Woodbury

3AA- Hill-Murray, Roseville, Stillwater, White Bear Lake

4AA- Blaine, Centennial, Maple Grove, Wayzata

5AA- Eastview, Edina, Holy Angels, Jefferson

6AA- BSM, Eden Prairie, Holy Family, Minnetonka

7AA- Cloquet, Duluth East, Elk River, Grand Rapids

8AA- Brainerd, Moorhead, Roseau, Warroad


Couple of notes:

1) Had to switch the Edina, Jefferson section back to number 5, I think it looks much better that way

2) I took into account single A teams as well (e.g. St. Thomas and Warroad) I believe Warroad has the talent year in year out to compete with Roseau and Moorhead in 8AA and occasionally crash the AA tourney.

3) Any team not here I would keep in the section it's already in (team wise, but switch them to line it up with the number)

[PuckU126]

So I took what I thought to be the top 32 or so programs (adjusted a little for location) and split them into the 8 sections and this is what I came up with. I feel this would give us great competitive balance for sections and getting the top teams to state.

1AA- Burnsville, Lakeville North, Lakeville South, Prior Lake

2AA- Cretin-Derham Hall, Eagan, St. Thomas, Woodbury

3AA- Hill-Murray, Roseville, Stillwater, White Bear Lake

4AA- Blaine, Centennial, Maple Grove, Wayzata

5AA- Eastview, Edina, Holy Angels, Jefferson

6AA- BSM, Eden Prairie, Holy Family, Minnetonka

7AA- Cloquet, Duluth East, Elk River, Grand Rapids

8AA- Brainerd, Moorhead, Roseau, Warroad


Couple of notes:

1) Had to switch the Edina, Jefferson section back to number 5, I think it looks much better that way

2) I took into account single A teams as well (e.g. St. Thomas and Warroad) I believe Warroad has the talent year in year out to compete with Roseau and Moorhead in 8AA and occasionally crash the AA tourney.

3) Any team not here I would keep in the section it's already in (team wise, but switch them to line it up with the number)

That looks pretty good in my opinion. Nice job, 51.

[The51]

So I took what I thought to be the top 32 or so programs (adjusted a little for location) and split them into the 8 sections and this is what I came up with. I feel this would give us great competitive balance for sections and getting the top teams to state.

1AA- Burnsville, Lakeville North, Lakeville South, Prior Lake

2AA- Cretin-Derham Hall, Eagan, St. Thomas, Woodbury

3AA- Hill-Murray, Roseville, Stillwater, White Bear Lake

4AA- Blaine, Centennial, Maple Grove, Wayzata

5AA- Eastview, Edina, Holy Angels, Jefferson

6AA- BSM, Eden Prairie, Holy Family, Minnetonka

7AA- Cloquet, Duluth East, Elk River, Grand Rapids

8AA- Brainerd, Moorhead, Roseau, Warroad


Couple of notes:

1) Had to switch the Edina, Jefferson section back to number 5, I think it looks much better that way

2) I took into account single A teams as well (e.g. St. Thomas and Warroad) I believe Warroad has the talent year in year out to compete with Roseau and Moorhead in 8AA and occasionally crash the AA tourney.

3) Any team not here I would keep in the section it's already in (team wise, but switch them to line it up with the number)

That looks pretty good in my opinion. Nice job, 51.

sorry bud, didint take the time to go read every post