Private School Trash talk thread

[Ogie]

You mean to say that the free market has distinct advantages over monopoly and forced use?

Who would have ever guessed?

Ogie want a cracker?

Original thought is allowed on this message board, you know.

Unleash the free market on all of our schools? Okay, then when some company (let's call them Educorp), comes along and starts to purchase schools, let's see what happens.

1. Educorp gets a foothold in MN schools by buying a few strategically placed schools.

2. Educorp grows large enough to offer educational services for below cost, a loss they are willing to sustain so they can undercut other schools and force them out of business.

3. Educorp becomes dominant education company in MN, and soon all other companies sell out to them instead of ending up in bankruptcy.

4. With their monopoly firmly in hand, Educorp begins to raise prices and cut services in order to increase profits. Teachers' salaries are slashed as they have no other choice of where to work. Students' educations suffer, but nothing can be done because everyone has swallowed the idea that free markets are infallible.

5. Government is eventually forced to intercede and break up the Educorp trust, and the educational system will return to how it was before, until people once again forget the lessons learned and substitute their own thinking with that which they hear on talk radio.

Theodore Roosevelt, a man whose face happens to be carved into the side of a mountain alongside Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson, knew that a totally free market ultimately ends up in screwing the consumer and he broke up the monopolies created by the free market.

I can't think of a worse idea to apply to our entire education system.

Problem being (besides your shaky grasp of history and basic macroeconomics) that markets don't work that way....And infallibility/perfection isn't and cannot ever be an option.

Markets give us competing stores like Target, Wal Mart and K Mart....I don't see any of those three becoming a monopoly in the retail world anytime soon....The same model could work quite well in the market for education, at least as well, if not better, than the antiquated middle 20th century model currently in place.

Now, I believe you were muttering something or another about original thought?

[Nostalgic Nerd]

Of course I root against private schools, but I don't really hate them and I don't think they should be removed from the MSHSL (although I think an all private section has merit).

Listen to yourself: you don't really hate them but you think an all-private section is acceptable. This is a participation league, and to do that isn't exactly in line with what the league is all about. If a private team can be proven that they need to move up (STA, Breck) is one thing, but not every team should have to simply because they are a private. The sections are aligned by geograph which if applied by those measures is bias-free because it doesn't consider team success. The most you can do is move private teams to AA. How private schools are able to build better facilities doesn't necessarily equate to an advantage in talent, and if you are going to use that as a measure it has to be proven consistently. Let them decide it on the ice.

Edit: an all-private section is essentially a mini-all-private tournament. You're manipulating the system to get it your way: the removal of privates.

[observer]

You're not very nostalgic.

[stpaul]

Bravo!

Plastic excitement... For plastic teams.

This is my favorite. I've heard it many times in this annual argument on this board.

I don't like private schools competing with public schools for all the reasons noted above, therefore the real life experiences of those athletes, students, school staff, parents, families, alumni and friends must be phony.

Next week at the Coliseum Tuesday and hopefully Friday and hopefully at the X the week after that - I will be sure to remind everyone on the HM side that the fun and excitement of the section and state games is not real.

[elliott70]

Bravo!

Plastic excitement... For plastic teams.

This is my favorite. I've heard it many times in this annual argument on this board.

I don't like private schools competing with public schools for all the reasons noted above, therefore the real life experiences of those athletes, students, school staff, parents, families, alumni and friends must be phony.

Next week at the Coliseum Tuesday and hopefully Friday and hopefully at the X the week after that - I will be sure to remind everyone on the HM side that the fun and excitement of the section and state games is not real.

Leave Hill out of this, we like Hill.

[Ogie]

Bravo!

Plastic excitement... For plastic teams.

This is my favorite. I've heard it many times in this annual argument on this board.

I don't like private schools competing with public schools for all the reasons noted above, therefore the real life experiences of those athletes, students, school staff, parents, families, alumni and friends must be phony.

Next week at the Coliseum Tuesday and hopefully Friday and hopefully at the X the week after that - I will be sure to remind everyone on the HM side that the fun and excitement of the section and state games is not real.

[rainier]

You mean to say that the free market has distinct advantages over monopoly and forced use?

Who would have ever guessed?

Ogie want a cracker?

Original thought is allowed on this message board, you know.

Unleash the free market on all of our schools? Okay, then when some company (let's call them Educorp), comes along and starts to purchase schools, let's see what happens.

1. Educorp gets a foothold in MN schools by buying a few strategically placed schools.

2. Educorp grows large enough to offer educational services for below cost, a loss they are willing to sustain so they can undercut other schools and force them out of business.

3. Educorp becomes dominant education company in MN, and soon all other companies sell out to them instead of ending up in bankruptcy.

4. With their monopoly firmly in hand, Educorp begins to raise prices and cut services in order to increase profits. Teachers' salaries are slashed as they have no other choice of where to work. Students' educations suffer, but nothing can be done because everyone has swallowed the idea that free markets are infallible.

5. Government is eventually forced to intercede and break up the Educorp trust, and the educational system will return to how it was before, until people once again forget the lessons learned and substitute their own thinking with that which they hear on talk radio.

Theodore Roosevelt, a man whose face happens to be carved into the side of a mountain alongside Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson, knew that a totally free market ultimately ends up in screwing the consumer and he broke up the monopolies created by the free market.

I can't think of a worse idea to apply to our entire education system.

Problem being (besides your shaky grasp of history and basic macroeconomics) that markets don't work that way....And infallibility/perfection isn't and cannot ever be an option.

Markets give us competing stores like Target, Wal Mart and K Mart....I don't see any of those three becoming a monopoly in the retail world anytime soon....The same model could work quite well in the market for education, at least as well, if not better, than the antiquated middle 20th century model currently in place.

Now, I believe you were muttering something or another about original thought?

Shaky grasp of history? The only history I mentioned was Teddy breaking up the monopolistic trusts. Are you really trying to say that didn't happen? It was a watershed moment in US history, the day when government had to step in and reign in the free market.

You're right, neither Target, Wal Mart, nor K Mart will become a monopoly anytime soon. You know why? Listen carefully now...Because we have antitrust laws in this country to prevent it from happening.

I don't see private schools as really being free market. Are they trying to expand and grow their business? Are they for-profit entities? Is STA lining up a hostile takeover of BSM? They work fine, but to apply their model (aimed at the wealthy) to public schools (aimed at everyone) in MN is asinine.

Private schools have exploited their advantages to create attractive situations for hockey players. That's fine, but they have advantages that public schools will never have.

[Ogie]

Dude, I'm certain that your local community college offers a Macroeconomics 101 course...Your litany of fantasy-based anti-market straw man arguments have no bearing whatsoever in reality.

Good luck.

[rainier]

Dude, I'm certain that your local community college offers a Macroeconomics 101 course...Your litany of fantasy-based anti-market straw man arguments have no bearing whatsoever in reality.

Good luck.

Good luck to you too, but someday Rush and Hannity will be off the air so you may have to learn to form a thought on your own. Might as well start now.


I'm glad playoffs are here.

[Rude Dog]

quote="rainier"]Or it could be that STA can accumulate so many top players from the surrounding communities that 70% of their roster is good enough to play in the Elite League while Hermantown will have 2 or 3 Elite players, all from one legitimately A-sized community.[/quote]

Just to be fair, let's not pretend that Hermantown is your average small community, public school. The Median family income in Hermantown is probably top 5 in the state. Not that money alone builds great hockey programs but I think we all know it certainly doesn't hurt. People from all over the area move to Hermantown for youth hockey. I wonder why Derek Plante moved his family and three elite hockey playing kids there after his pro career was over? He's from Cloquet, works in Duluth and his wife is from Duluth. (Not a knock against him, he's a great guy and I would do the same.) And nothing against Hermantown, I admire their program and success. Just making the point that I'm not sure we should be crying for them because they lost to a private school. They are much more similar to a private school then public.

[Ogie]

Dude, I'm certain that your local community college offers a Macroeconomics 101 course...Your litany of fantasy-based anti-market straw man arguments have no bearing whatsoever in reality.

Good luck.

Good luck to you too, but someday Rush and Hannity will be off the air so you may have to learn to form a thought on your own. Might as well start now.


I'm glad playoffs are here.

More greatness in substance-free straw man and ad hominem argumentation.

I'll bet that local community college also offers a class in basic argumentation and debate....Put that on your list too.

[pekyman]

quote="rainier"]Or it could be that STA can accumulate so many top players from the surrounding communities that 70% of their roster is good enough to play in the Elite League while Hermantown will have 2 or 3 Elite players, all from one legitimately A-sized community.

Just to be fair, let's not pretend that Hermantown is your average small community, public school. The Median family income in Hermantown is probably top 5 in the state. Not that money alone builds great hockey programs but I think we all know it certainly doesn't hurt. People from all over the area move to Hermantown for youth hockey. I wonder why Derek Plante moved his family and three elite hockey playing kids there after his pro career was over? He's from Cloquet, works in Duluth and his wife is from Duluth. (Not a knock against him, he's a great guy and I would do the same.) And nothing against Hermantown, I admire their program and success. Just making the point that I'm not sure we should be crying for them because they lost to a private school. They are much more similar to a private school then public.[/quote]

Wow is that a complete pile of BS.

[PuckU126]

I don't see private schools as really being free market. Are they trying to expand and grow their business?

Of course, private schools make education a free market. Parents can choose whether they want their child to go to the public school within their zone OR go to a select number of private schools.

STA is in the middle of finishing an 18 million dollar project that expands/improves their athletic dept. and academics.

HM just finished making some new improvements and expansions on campus as well.

Are they for-profit entities?

Of course. But they reinvest to make improvements to their programs and their campuses.

Public schools do the same; HOWEVER, their funds come from the state and federal government.

Is STA lining up a hostile takeover of BSM?

Hostile takeover? There is competition both monetary and athletically between private schools, but... what are you taking about? I don't see Amazon lining up a hostile takeover of WalMart. They're business competitors...

They work fine, but to apply their model (aimed at the wealthy) to public schools (aimed at everyone) in MN is asinine.

A common misconception. Private schools are not just aimed at the wealthy. They are aimed at everyone like public schools. 2/3 of the student body at HM are on financial aid. All private schools have some sort of financial aid system that helps parents send their children into the classroom; just like FAFSA with colleges.

[elliott70]

I don't see private schools as really being free market. Are they trying to expand and grow their business?

Of course, private schools make education a free market. Parents can choose whether they want their child to go to the public school within their zone OR go to a select number of private schools.

STA is in the middle of finishing an 18 million dollar project that expands/improves their athletic dept. and academics.

HM just finished making some new improvements and expansions on campus as well.

Are they for-profit entities?

Of course. But they reinvest to make improvements to their programs and their campuses.

Public schools do the same; HOWEVER, their funds come from the state and federal government.

Is STA lining up a hostile takeover of BSM?

Hostile takeover? There is competition both monetary and athletically between private schools, but... what are you taking about? I don't see Amazon lining up a hostile takeover of WalMart. They're business competitors...

They work fine, but to apply their model (aimed at the wealthy) to public schools (aimed at everyone) in MN is asinine.

A common misconception. Private schools are not just aimed at the wealthy. They are aimed at everyone like public schools. 2/3 of the student body at HM are on financial aid. All private schools have some sort of financial aid system that helps parents send their children into the classroom; just like FAFSA with colleges.

How many kids from food stamp families?
How many autistic kids, AFS, how many in foster homes?
Do you have any kids that don't know if they are staying with grandpa and grandma tonight or maybe at a cousins house?
How many kids start kindergarten without ever having had someone read them a book?
How many have been sexually abused?
How much effort does the admin put into keeping kids from dropping out?
Do you have the local gangs haning out the back door recruiting members?
And you still have the Federal and State making you meet mandates that cannot possible be met, but yet you keep working hard for every single kid that starts at your school....

[Doc Holliday]

The Median family income in Hermantown is probably top 5 in the state.

Hermantown would rank #5 in the Lake Conference alone, only ahead of Hopkins. And a large number of Hopkins' kids come from Minnetonka, so I wouldn't even count that.

[PuckU126]

1. How many kids from food stamp families?
2. How many autistic kids, AFS, how many in foster homes?
3. Do you have any kids that don't know if they are staying with grandpa and grandma tonight or maybe at a cousins house?
4. How many kids start kindergarten without ever having had someone read them a book?
5. How many have been sexually abused?
6. How much effort does the admin put into keeping kids from dropping out?
7. Do you have the local gangs haning out the back door recruiting members?
8. And you still have the Federal and State making you meet mandates that cannot possible be met, but yet you keep working hard for every single kid that starts at your school....

If families are able to make the necessary financial aid payments, they can attend. Period.

[MrBoDangles]

Bravo!

Plastic excitement... For plastic teams.

This is my favorite. I've heard it many times in this annual argument on this board.

I don't like private schools competing with public schools for all the reasons noted above, therefore the real life experiences of those athletes, students, school staff, parents, families, alumni and friends must be phony.

Next week at the Coliseum Tuesday and hopefully Friday and hopefully at the X the week after that - I will be sure to remind everyone on the HM side that the fun and excitement of the section and state games is not real.

Alarming?

[BodyShots]

I don't see private schools as really being free market. Are they trying to expand and grow their business?

Of course, private schools make education a free market. Parents can choose whether they want their child to go to the public school within their zone OR go to a select number of private schools.

STA is in the middle of finishing an 18 million dollar project that expands/improves their athletic dept. and academics.

HM just finished making some new improvements and expansions on campus as well.

Are they for-profit entities?

Of course. But they reinvest to make improvements to their programs and their campuses.

Public schools do the same; HOWEVER, their funds come from the state and federal government.

Is STA lining up a hostile takeover of BSM?

Hostile takeover? There is competition both monetary and athletically between private schools, but... what are you taking about? I don't see Amazon lining up a hostile takeover of WalMart. They're business competitors...

They work fine, but to apply their model (aimed at the wealthy) to public schools (aimed at everyone) in MN is asinine.

A common misconception. Private schools are not just aimed at the wealthy. They are aimed at everyone like public schools. 2/3 of the student body at HM are on financial aid. All private schools have some sort of financial aid system that helps parents send their children into the classroom; just like FAFSA with colleges.

How many kids from food stamp families?
How many autistic kids, AFS, how many in foster homes?
Do you have any kids that don't know if they are staying with grandpa and grandma tonight or maybe at a cousins house?
How many kids start kindergarten without ever having had someone read them a book?
How many have been sexually abused?
How much effort does the admin put into keeping kids from dropping out?
Do you have the local gangs haning out the back door recruiting members?
And you still have the Federal and State making you meet mandates that cannot possible be met, but yet you keep working hard for every single kid that starts at your school....

Keep going Elliot. You are on a roll!

[BadgerBob82]

I say MSHSL should adopt a very simple rule. If you don't live in the bussing zone for a school, you are exempt from sports. (i.e. if you live in Winona, you can't play for Lourdes. If you live in Rosemount, you can't play for BSM, etc.) Then we can see who open enrolls for the education.

[rainier]

quote="rainier"]Or it could be that STA can accumulate so many top players from the surrounding communities that 70% of their roster is good enough to play in the Elite League while Hermantown will have 2 or 3 Elite players, all from one legitimately A-sized community.

Just to be fair, let's not pretend that Hermantown is your average small community, public school. The Median family income in Hermantown is probably top 5 in the state. Not that money alone builds great hockey programs but I think we all know it certainly doesn't hurt. People from all over the area move to Hermantown for youth hockey. I wonder why Derek Plante moved his family and three elite hockey playing kids there after his pro career was over? He's from Cloquet, works in Duluth and his wife is from Duluth. (Not a knock against him, he's a great guy and I would do the same.) And nothing against Hermantown, I admire their program and success. Just making the point that I'm not sure we should be crying for them because they lost to a private school. They are much more similar to a private school then public.[/quote]

Why oh why would Derek Plante move his family to Hermantown?

Because his father is the coach at Hermantown!

[Rude Dog]

quote="rainier"]Or it could be that STA can accumulate so many top players from the surrounding communities that 70% of their roster is good enough to play in the Elite League while Hermantown will have 2 or 3 Elite players, all from one legitimately A-sized community.

Just to be fair, let's not pretend that Hermantown is your average small community, public school. The Median family income in Hermantown is probably top 5 in the state. Not that money alone builds great hockey programs but I think we all know it certainly doesn't hurt. People from all over the area move to Hermantown for youth hockey. I wonder why Derek Plante moved his family and three elite hockey playing kids there after his pro career was over? He's from Cloquet, works in Duluth and his wife is from Duluth. (Not a knock against him, he's a great guy and I would do the same.) And nothing against Hermantown, I admire their program and success. Just making the point that I'm not sure we should be crying for them because they lost to a private school. They are much more similar to a private school then public.

Why oh why would Derek Plante move his family to Hermantown?

Because his father is the coach at Hermantown![/quote]

LOL, Bruce is 65 years old! If he's still coaching when his Mite grandkids get to High School I'll tip my cap to him. If he wanted to be closer to his Dad wouldn't he move to Duluth?

[Nostalgic Nerd]

I say MSHSL should adopt a very simple rule. If you don't live in the bussing zone for a school, you are exempt from sports. (i.e. if you live in Winona, you can't play for Lourdes. If you live in Rosemount, you can't play for BSM, etc.) Then we can see who open enrolls for the education.

Again, the league is a participation one. You cannot force them to nothing. Within the system, the best they can do is make certain teams opt up to AA, and they did pass the transfer rule. I don't know what more you people want. The league can do their best to bring balance within that realm, but that's about it.

[BadgerBob82]

The transfer rule stopped the school hopping. (For educational purposes of course)

Open enrollment for athletics is very real. Tying sports participation to residence location would eliminate the transfer rule for 99% of the students.

For instance, one can live in Eden Prairie but in the Minnetonka school boundary, yet attend Holy Family. Bussing provided to all three schools. So make your choice and all is good. But to drive an hour past 10+ schools to reach the school of your choice should not be an allowed free pass for sports.

You live in Elk River and want a military based education, have at it, but no hockey for you.

[Ogie]

Indeed...We simply must not have these uppity "parent" people going around believing that they get to have any say in where their kids attend school and participate in athletics!

[elliott70]

Indeed...We simply must not have these uppity "parent" people going around believing that they get to have any say in where their kids attend school and participate in athletics!

Finally, something everyone can agree on.