Tier hockey

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:50 am

Quasar wrote: Any thing that harms what we have should be avoided.

As I said in a previous post 200 in Midgets 3500 in High School all the rest in some rec program... where's the harm?

NFL has roughly half the # of players. Do you think the NFL wouldn't be harmed if their top 100 players left? The replacement players were not a big hit back in '82, especially with Vikings fans.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:25 pm

The Jr Gold program is in place for the 19 year old senior to have a place to play if cut from the high school. The Midget classification in Mn Hockey other than Shattuck was discontinued after the 1995 season as when USA Hockey widened the age window cut into the Jr Gold program. USA Hockey only cares about the 19 year old if they are playing Juniors. I highly doubt that with the success of the Jr Gold program Mn Hockey would push to reinstate the midget program and you can definitely believe the HS coaches will fight it all they way as the MGHCA is always trying the have Mn Hockey dissolve the thoroughbreds as they are taking their players(look who is calling the kettle black).

Shattuck has always been recruiting nation wide. The MSHSL was not going to let Shattuck compete as they felt they had to many out of state students even though they were living on campus. On a side note when they were in the High school league my sons even though loosing had a blast playing against them.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:54 pm

Grey, do you know is S-SM registers their teams through the Minnesota Affiliate?

SnowedIn · Post by **SnowedIn** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:38 pm

spin-o-rama wrote:
Quasar wrote: Any thing that harms what we have should be avoided.

As I said in a previous post 200 in Midgets 3500 in High School all the rest in some rec program... where's the harm?
NFL has roughly half the # of players. Do you think the NFL wouldn't be harmed if their top 100 players left? The replacement players were not a big hit back in '82, especially with Vikings fans.

Ahhh, an honest answer on this. Self preservation of the system. Not necessarily the best option for all elite players, if they want to live near home and develop better, but the best for "the system" of MSHSH. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country.

Difference is, unlike the NFL, MSHSH is not a pro league with the best players - the elite of the elite, from top to bottom on each team. MSHSH a high school league which features a mix of some elite players, many average players and some below average players.

Would be nice to give those elite players the choice to stay home and play with other elite players and develop faster and better than they can on their HS team, like many others around the country and other countries are doing. Plenty of the top players will stay in the MSHSH system. Maybe we should have a little less fear and some faith in the system to produce more horses from within and give our young men and women the opportunity to do what is the best for "them" in our own state of hockey.

dlow · Post by **dlow** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:02 am

SnowedIn wrote:
spin-o-rama wrote:
Quasar wrote: Any thing that harms what we have should be avoided.

As I said in a previous post 200 in Midgets 3500 in High School all the rest in some rec program... where's the harm?
NFL has roughly half the # of players. Do you think the NFL wouldn't be harmed if their top 100 players left? The replacement players were not a big hit back in '82, especially with Vikings fans.
Ahhh, an honest answer on this. Self preservation of the system. Not necessarily the best option for all elite players, if they want to live near home and develop better, but the best for "the system" of MSHSH. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country.

Difference is, unlike the NFL, MSHSH is not a pro league with the best players - the elite of the elite, from top to bottom on each team. MSHSH a high school league which features a mix of some elite players, many average players and some below average players.

Would be nice to give those elite players the choice to stay home and play with other elite players and develop faster and better than they can on their HS team, like many others around the country and other countries are doing. Plenty of the top players will stay in the MSHSH system. Maybe we should have a little less fear and some faith in the system to produce more horses from within and give our young men and women the opportunity to do what is the best for "them" in our own state of hockey.

There may be something to the point that Tier 1 would advance some kids development faster than what they have now (AA winter and AAA summer, excellent camps, many ex-pro, ex-d1 instructors, 3v3 leagues, etc). But if you are looking at the bigger picture, having a system where the "good kids" families have to spend $100,000 for their youth career is pretty rough. (more pressure=more burnout). From where I'm sitting, this all screams of a $ thing, with maybe a small amount of hockey development benefit.

If you really want it, force MN Hockey to make a public statement of their position by attending their meetings and getting those interested involved... or by buying them off...

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:17 am

Mr. Low, when you list out all of the programming available to kids from the Twin Cities it seems "the great Tier I debate" is really just about some people wanting what they can't have.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:15 am

If you want to send the kid to rink every day of the year in the metro you can. How much more hockey do you need?? Two/three times a day???

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:59 am

Quasar: "You know I'm talking about the kids that might be too good for High School Hockey. Not about expanding choices, they are already there for everyone not good enough to play Varsity hockey. "

I've heard it all. In your view, there are kids that are "too good for High School Hockey"? The few that might be, play USHL. Others that go to the NAHL, Russell Stover, etc really aren't too good for anything.

Face it, creating Midget would really be for the players that can't/don't make Varsity but Daddy has the cash to pay for Tier 1 and say, Little Johnny was just too good to play HS Hockey.

Laughable!

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:58 am

Bob, I see what you see.

SnowedIn · Post by **SnowedIn** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:26 am

Badger/Clown - I don't see it.

To not acknowledge that a group of elite hockey players around MN, practicing week in and week out together and playing other local tier 1 elite teams and other top elite teams around NA, is more progressive for those that choose to do this, and to say that would not be better than highschool hockey, is backassswards. Maybe not better for you but all assurances it would be better for those involved. At least Spin-o-rama and Dlow are honest. How do you type neck deep in the garden?

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:27 am

O-townClown wrote:Bob, I see what you see.

And you're both blind to community trapped kids.

YES, parents will go out of their way for their kids for proper training.

The 97 Fire team was filled with plenty of kids that came from very weak winter associations. They wanted to train at a higher level and knew they would have poor, to very poor, training from inexperienced coaches in their community.. Sure, there are great coaches in Edina, Wayzata, Eden Prairie etc, but try coming to a small time association practice where the kids are standing around or waiting in line to do the same drill for 20 minutes straight. You're very fortunate if you have good coaching in a small association.

And these kids(97's) were able to stay in the same school with their friends.

I'm not really for tier 1, but until MNH comes up with some options for these kids, why not?

District pooled A teams for small association kids?

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:30 am

BadgerBob82 wrote:Quasar: "You know I'm talking about the kids that might be too good for High School Hockey. Not about expanding choices, they are already there for everyone not good enough to play Varsity hockey. "

I've heard it all. In your view, there are kids that are "too good for High School Hockey"? The few that might be, play USHL. Others that go to the NAHL, Russell Stover, etc really aren't too good for anything.

Face it, creating Midget would really be for the players that can't/don't make Varsity but Daddy has the cash to pay for Tier 1 and say, Little Johnny was just too good to play HS Hockey.

Laughable!

You know I respect your viewpoints bob and I know where you are coming from in most instances but I don't think that is what he meant at all bob, I actually think you misinterpreted his words a little bit. I know what he said but I also think I know what he meant. I don't think he meant the kids were too good for MN High School hockey in general, MN High School hockey as a whole is tremendous, what I think he meant was maybe they're own high school programs were just too poor or too poorly coached or some other individual circumstances where Tier 1 AAA MM would do a much better job of developing those individuals and allow them to do it closer to home instead of having to go so far away. And there are alot of Tier 1 AAA MM programs that do an excellent job of developing high end players, players that maybe could go tot he USHL but maybe for certain development reasons they shouldn't go that route yet. I've seen plenty of that from many kids in many states nd again it's based on the advice of the college and junior scouts and coaches who are recruiting/drafting them. All Q is saying is that why should a kid have to move 400 miles from home who is in that position when they could be playing 60 miles or less from home (practice and home game wise anyway). I also disagree that Tier 1 AAA Hockey would only be for kids who can't make the varsity, I actually think that is laughable, if that were the case then why are there SOME kids in WI who make varsity and also make Team Wisconsin but after a year of that they go back and play Tier 1 at places like the Jr Admirals or Capitols or Mission etc.. etc... If youa re good enough to make TW youa re good enough to make any varsity team anywhere, even MN, so to think that MN kids would choose this option because they can't make their varsity teams I find doubtful, in fact I doubt they'd make a Tier 1 team if they couldn't make their varsity team....... Again I do not understand the "fear" of those who are so opposed to a limited number of Tier 1 teams in MN. Also, this isn't just MN High School thingk I mean programs for all Tier 1 age groups. And again, just put in by laws that limit the number of programs and teams per program like they do in WI... it wouldn't destroy anything and you might just find it just may enhance things. Hereis what I know about all walks of life though, if you are standing still you are dying (eventually) you have to keep moving forward and changing or adapting or you are destined to die. That is a truism that literally applies to everything in life.... take it for what it's worth.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:53 am

[quote]ou know I respect your viewpoints bob and I know where you are coming from in most instances but I don't think that is what he meant at all bob, I actually think you misinterpreted his words a little bit. I know what he said but I also think I know what he meant. I don't think he meant the kids were too good for MN High School hockey in general, MN High School hockey as a whole is tremendous, what I think he meant was maybe they're own high school programs were just too poor or too poorly coached or some other individual circumstances where Tier 1 AAA MM would do a much better job of developing those individuals and allow them to do it closer to home instead of having to go so far away. And there are alot of Tier 1 AAA MM programs that do an excellent job of developing high end players, players that maybe could go tot he USHL but maybe for certain development reasons they shouldn't go that route yet. I've seen plenty of that from many kids in many states nd again it's based on the advice of the college and junior scouts and coaches who are recruiting/drafting them. All Q is saying is that why should a kid have to move 400 miles from home who is in that position when they could be playing 60 miles or less from home (practice and home game wise anyway). I also disagree that Tier 1 AAA Hockey would only be for kids who can't make the varsity, I actually think that is laughable, if that were the case then why are there SOME kids in WI who make varsity and also make Team Wisconsin but after a year of that they go back and play Tier 1 at places like the Jr Admirals or Capitols or Mission etc.. etc... If youa re good enough to make TW youa re good enough to make any varsity team anywhere, even MN, so to think that MN kids would choose this option because they can't make their varsity teams I find doubtful, in fact I doubt they'd make a Tier 1 team if they couldn't make their varsity team....... Again I do not understand the "fear" of those who are so opposed to a limited number of Tier 1 teams in MN. Also, this isn't just MN High School thingk I mean programs for all Tier 1 age groups. And again, just put in by laws that limit the number of programs and teams per program like they do in WI... it wouldn't destroy anything and you might just find it just may enhance things. Hereis what I know about all walks of life though, if you are standing still you are dying (eventually) you have to keep moving forward and changing or adapting or you are destined to die. That is a truism that literally applies to everything in life.... take it for what it's worth.[/quote

I Guess the too good for high school concept has started a serious discussion about the pros and cons of Minnesota high school hockey.

Great for almost everybody... I agree with Bo's comment about Tier 1 not being the end all . I advocated for district teams a long time ago.

Talking about the possibilities can only help the situation.

I think we'll see what kind of Tier 1 Minnesota is able to produce next summer. The Midget minor teams are up to 6 by my count. I'm thinking that will be 8 or so when the real season begins this spring.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:55 am

For those who are really serious then work together and go through the process. Since it has not been on the agenda for the last 2 Mn Hockey meetings it will not happen for this year and maybe not even next year.

Since we are now talking High school this should be moved to the proper forum.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:58 am

greybeard58 wrote:For those who are really serious then work together and go through the process. Since it has not been on the agenda for the last 2 Mn Hockey meetings it will not happen for this year and maybe not even next year.

Since we are now talking High school this should be moved to the proper forum.

We're still talking midgets here. It all goes together.

Edit: You know, I think Midget MM mm could exist at a higher level than High school hockey in many communities. I think the idea that midget hockey is for kids that cant make the high school team is a Minnesota concept . You can't rig the game if you have a vibrant midget program..

I think your right. It wont happen this year or next. But it will..

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:11 am

I can definitely see Tier 1 is Wisconsin! It's long been established at all levels. No disrespect, but WI HS hockey is not the same as MN HS Hockey. Neither is MI or IL. So if we talk "development" at the HS age, let's agree we mean "exposure" to the next level of play? With the Elite Leagues, various after HS season "Xposure" options and of course US Jr leagues, there are plenty of "scouting exposure" opportunities available year-round.

If Central Scouting can find HS games, you know Jr and college scouts do too, so what more exposure do MN kids need?

Now, as for good player jailed in a poor program? They have to evaluate their priorities and make choices that meet their family's needs.

Should MN Hockey have Tier 1 from U-10 to Midgets? We can discuss the merits of a complete Tier 1 program. But I think we cover all bases well in MN.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:43 am

I realize Mn Jrs. is still young and growing, but could that league be a better option for the smaller town kids to play at a higher level. It seems like these teams should go find some of those type kids.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:54 am

old goalie85 wrote:I realize Mn Jrs. is still young and growing, but could that league be a better option for the smaller town kids to play at a higher level. It seems like these teams should go find some of those type kids.

Yep, that's the answer let's give em pay to play at 5 or 6 thousand bucks..

No need to give em a program that would cost around a grand!
They're rich let em eat Cake (no pun intended)

There is no reason kids that live in "The State of Hockey" can't play high level hockey without bankrupting their parents, or packing their suitcase at 16 years old.

Old, this is in reply to your thought, not you personally.
I have a high regard for your opinions and the fact that your not afraid to state them... Q

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:15 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:I can definitely see Tier 1 is Wisconsin! It's long been established at all levels. No disrespect, but WI HS hockey is not the same as MN HS Hockey. Neither is MI or IL. So if we talk "development" at the HS age, let's agree we mean "exposure" to the next level of play? With the Elite Leagues, various after HS season "Xposure" options and of course US Jr leagues, there are plenty of "scouting exposure" opportunities available year-round.

If Central Scouting can find HS games, you know Jr and college scouts do too, so what more exposure do MN kids need?

Now, as for good player jailed in a poor program? They have to evaluate their priorities and make choices that meet their family's needs.

Should MN Hockey have Tier 1 from U-10 to Midgets? We can discuss the merits of a complete Tier 1 program. But I think we cover all bases well in MN.

My take has centered on the idea that the Tier 1 AAA programs I have been suggesting should be U10 through midgets/ My arguments have all had that in my mindset the entire time. Even when I was discussing the high school aspect I still thought it should be part of a complete program for all age groups. Again I ask though, if MN has it covered so well why are there 2000 (and younger and older) kids who live in/around the twin cities driving to Madison, WI or Waterloo, IA to play for Tier 1 AAA Pee Wee teams this season (and before ayone suggests it, the kids I know who are doing this are play their spring/summer hockey for the Machine so these aren't kids who aren't able to make their association A teams....)? Why was the Fire so successful, for the youths in those age groups and considering how good the Fire was I don't think you could consider any of those kids "castoffs"? Again still no answer as to why a limited number of Tier 1 programs (I say 5) with a limit of one team per age group (U10 through midgets) within each program, spread amongst the state, would be such a bad thing for MN Hockey. I just don't see it having the negative impact some think it would.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:21 pm

old goalie85 wrote:I realize Mn Jrs. is still young and growing, but could that league be a better option for the smaller town kids to play at a higher level. It seems like these teams should go find some of those type kids.

It's the route Jake Parenteau(Gophers) went after attending Chisago Lakes. Never got any credit playing B-1(their top level) in District 10(B-1's are not allowed in the D-10 Advanced programs). I can see a record breaking forward, but how hard is it for a D-Man to get noticed in a small program..?

Almost quit and would have fell through the cracks.

observer · Post by **observer** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:31 pm

I realize Mn Jrs. is still young and growing, but could that league be a better option for the smaller town kids to play at a higher level.

Its here and available and less than the $20,000 to $30,000 per year families in AAA markets pay. Some kids play a before and after schedule to complement their high school season and get additional exposure.

Second, and most important, is what greybeard said. MN Hockey is an organization for their members. They will not expand on this idea without involvement and an organized request from their membership. Instead of throwing around ideas that are sure to go nowhere develop a few plans and present them to your governing body. It was once explained to me (not entirely accurate but you'll get the idea) that MN Hockey makes no decisions, the members do.

People love to fuss but forget they themselves are in charge. I think the Wisconsin model of 3 or 4 AAA winter clubs is a reasonable one. Remember, cost and ice availability have been brought up here before as major initial hurdles. Don’t be a lazy fusser. Get involved in the process of making your dream come true.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:36 pm

Q-I'm cool w/that. My point is for now that may be another option for the kids. I still think the best idea was the district "all-star" teams. They could play each district 3 times. Go to 4or 5 top national tournys, and practice w/same or similar.Yada Yada...

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:42 pm

observer wrote:
I realize Mn Jrs. is still young and growing, but could that league be a better option for the smaller town kids to play at a higher level.

Its here and available and less than the $20,000 to $30,000 per year families in AAA markets pay. Some kids play a before and after schedule to complement their high school season and get additional exposure.

Second, and most important, is what greybeard said. MN Hockey is an organization for their members. They will not expand on this idea without involvement and an organized request from their membership. Instead of throwing around ideas that are sure to go nowhere develop a few plans and present them to your governing body. It was once explained to me (not entirely accurate but you'll get the idea) that MN Hockey makes no decisions, the members do.

People love to fuss but forget they themselves are in charge. I think the Wisconsin model of 3 or 4 AAA winter clubs is a reasonable one. Remember, cost and ice availability have been brought up here before as major initial hurdles. Don’t be a lazy fusser. Get involved in the process of making your dream come true.

The governing body probably had a hard time with the death of the Cooperall.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:43 pm

This thread is all over the map. Like Grey says, many of the recent threads should be on the HS forum because we're no longer talking about Minnesota Youth Hockey.

I'm very aware of the good-player-from-a-small-association dilemma. What I'm not clear on is how a limited number of Tier I teams helps them.

One Tier I team at a birthyear based out of Southwest suburbs probably ends up being 4 kids from Edina, 3 from Eden Prairie, 2 from Minnetonka, 2 from Chaska, and one each from Osseo, St. Louis Park, Bloomington, Burnsville, Apple Valley, and Eagan.

Two Tier I teams and maybe we have that and another made up of 2 kids from Anoka, 2 kids from Coon Rapids, 3 kids from Andover, 2 kids from Albertville, and a player each from Rogers, Elk River, Centennial, etc...

How many teams is this limited number before we get the stud from Detroit Lakes on a team with the best from Roseau, Warroad, and Moorhead? Remember, a central point to this argument is that these kids are going to practice together. Sounds like a weekend program to me.

Speaking from experience here, what would happen is that these recognized Tier I teams would be created and many of those families (great-player-in-a-small-association) would say, "no thanks."

District all-star teams are a great idea, but isn't that essentially what we're left with in the unregulated Spring/Summer? Guys form what you call "AAA" teams for Open and Invite tournaments. These affected kids (great-player-in-a-small-association) are hardly left out.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:48 pm

old goalie85 wrote:Q-I'm cool w/that. My point is for now that may be another option for the kids. I still think the best idea was the district "all-star" teams. They could play each district 3 times. Go to 4or 5 top national tournys, and practice w/same or similar.Yada Yada...

Here come the flaming torches!!!!

I know at least 4 kids that skated at a couple of Minnesota Junior practices this summer...

One of them (a 97) said. "why would I want to skate with those guys They're 20 years old and they cant keep up with me."

I'm talking about few Elite kids...

All they have to do is turn the AA program into district wide teams, and add Midgets. Real AA teams, Real A teams, Real B teams ..

Problem solved!!!