Tier hockey

skipperj · Post by **skipperj** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:02 pm

I might be burned at the stake for even questioning this but after reading on this forum for a while I am just wondering why no program has ever tried starting a tier 1 team. I would think it wouldn't take much for a program such as the made or the new one in Eagan (northern educate?) to start one. People have been writing death to association hockey for a long time on here and it just made me wonder.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:14 pm

To be Tier 1 AAA you have to registered with USA Hockey and approved by the USA Hockey affiliate, in your case MN Hockey. As I understand it MN Hockey bylaws do not allow for Tier ! AAA hockey, hence would not recognize such a club hence no USA Hockey coverage hence no Tier 1 status. Some of th esame folks at the made did start the WI Fire that practiced and playe dou tof SOmerset across the river and that lasted a few years and they played a Tier 1 schedule and were quite successfull and competitive but were never actually given Tier 1 status (WI at the time deemd them "Unclassified" which allowed them to play games and get insurance but not play in state, regional or national tourneys etc...). Eventually WI felt the Fire were not operating within the bylaws and that team was more or less forced out I guess is the easiest way to say it and hence dissolved. So it's been tried but it's a tough battle to fight when your own state won't allow for it currently under it's gverning body. Hopefully I got that all more or less correct in it's most basic form.

skipperj · Post by **skipperj** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:32 pm

That is a lot more complicated than I ever expected. Didnt made win a lawsuit over anti-competition against mn hockey? And how does shattuck fit in there? I thought they were tier hockey.

Napalm187 · Post by **Napalm187** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:37 pm

It is un-American that Mn is not allowed to have a Tier 1 team. It is incredibly myopic and selfish not to allow kids that want the opportunity to play Tier 1 and test themselves against the best around North America. Does Mn produce some elite hockey players, D1, HS superstars and some guys that get into the NHL? Sure. But, we'd have a HELLUVA lot more if kids were allowed to reach their full potential, which association hockey can't do. Whether it's the coaching, practice training or lack of quality games...association hockey is not the only answer for talented kids. MN hockey is a hotbed, not unlike the greater Toronto area, Vancouver area, Montreal area, plains of Alberta/Sask, the Detroit area, etc. But there are more high-quality NHL players from those areas because we force our kids to stay with this development model, which is OK for the masses...but mixed for the best we have. Some kids will make it regardless...but how much better would Nick Leddy be if he played Tier 1 growing up? He is already starting to get a mass of critics about his passive and underwhelming physical game, and you can bet your bottom dollar, if he'd play more games against better competition (faster and more physical) growing up...don't you think he'd be more on the fast track for top 2 minutes and 5-7$ mill a year, instead of being on the fringes of a roster within the next couple of year? He has all the skating talent in the world, but when I watch him play I see a typical Mn kid. To be on par with those kids in Toronto or Detroit, they need Tier 1 hockey and the physicality, speed and competition that Mn hockey can't even compare to.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:37 pm

skipperj wrote:That is a lot more complicated than I ever expected. Didnt made win a lawsuit over anti-competition against mn hockey? And how does shattuck fit in there? I thought they were tier hockey.

The suit wasn't about Tier 1 hockey I think it was about their choice league which is very different. Someone alot mre in the know than me will have to answer the Schattuck question as that one has often perplexed me as well. Seems like it's some sort of exception to the rule but I think it has soemthing to do with them being a school adn their sports being school sports but I could be way off on that. Very confusing and yes unecessarily complicated

IHEA · Post by **IHEA** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:17 pm

Good case made by Napalm

Problem is obviously tradition and the politics that go with it. The traditionalists that are not even remotely interested in Tier 1 will fight it and that makes up most of the state. The state has to approve a Tier 1 program. Why would they if they think the MHSHL will be tainted?

How did Shattuck get their Tier 1 status? Was it a special grant or did they follow MH bylaws to get it. Can other private schools do the same?

JSR, do you know what bylaws the WI Fire failed to abide by? They had a large majority of MN players on the rosters over the years and practiced mostly out of the Made. Was that the problem? I'm sure things like BM forcing his player to suck his thumb infront of his teammates didn't do the Fire's PR train any.

barry_mcconnell · Post by **barry_mcconnell** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:20 pm

Napalm187 wrote:It is un-American that Mn is not allowed to have a Tier 1 team. It is incredibly myopic and selfish not to allow kids that want the opportunity to play Tier 1 and test themselves against the best around North America. Does Mn produce some elite hockey players, D1, HS superstars and some guys that get into the NHL? Sure. But, we'd have a HELLUVA lot more if kids were allowed to reach their full potential, which association hockey can't do. Whether it's the coaching, practice training or lack of quality games...association hockey is not the only answer for talented kids. MN hockey is a hotbed, not unlike the greater Toronto area, Vancouver area, Montreal area, plains of Alberta/Sask, the Detroit area, etc. But there are more high-quality NHL players from those areas because we force our kids to stay with this development model, which is OK for the masses...but mixed for the best we have. Some kids will make it regardless...but how much better would Nick Leddy be if he played Tier 1 growing up? He is already starting to get a mass of critics about his passive and underwhelming physical game, and you can bet your bottom dollar, if he'd play more games against better competition (faster and more physical) growing up...don't you think he'd be more on the fast track for top 2 minutes and 5-7$ mill a year, instead of being on the fringes of a roster within the next couple of year? He has all the skating talent in the world, but when I watch him play I see a typical Mn kid. To be on par with those kids in Toronto or Detroit, they need Tier 1 hockey and the physicality, speed and competition that Mn hockey can't even compare to.

So in your eyes Nick Leddy is an example of the system failing? Alrighty... I'd be thrilled to fail like that.

Post by **karl(east)** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:30 pm

To answer the Shattuck question: as a high school, they are not under the purview of Minnesota Hockey. The regulatory body for high school sports is the MSHSL, and Shattuck opts out of the MSHSL for hockey. (Soccer, too, I think?) But they are in it for other sports.

Any school--public or private--could conceivably also opt out of the MSHSL, if they so chose. I believe girls' hockey at Duluth Marshall is going in this direction. The idea has been floated in several other cases, but never very seriously.

As I've said before, the basic reason the hockey establishment in MN tolerates Shattuck but not Tier 1 is because the Shattuck model is not really a viable alternative. Barring other factors, we are not going to see a ton of high schools rush off to form Tier 1 programs, as they are expensive and/or not keeping in the mission of most high schools. Tier 1 youth hockey, which would not be tied to schools and a broader educational mission, doesn't face that obstacle, and it's not inconceivable to think that the introduction of Tier 1 would blow up the entire system. That doesn't necessarily mean it will, but it's worth pondering.

SCBlueLiner · Post by **SCBlueLiner** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:31 pm

Frankly, I am not a fan of Tier 1 hockey. I think Minnesota has it right with the model they currently use. The reason other areas of the country need Tier 1 AAA hockey is because they don't have the amount and quality of local competition. They are forced to form these Tier 1 teams and travel all over the country playing similar teams because they don't have the amount of adequate competition in their own backyard.

Also, I am not a fan of Tier 1 hockey because of the costs associated with it. The best way to grow hockey, the number of kids playing hockey, and, therefore, an increase in the number of athletes playing hockey is to keep the costs down. Cost is the #1 excuse I hear from friends with kids my son's age as to why they do not play hockey. Too expensive. It ain't cheap jet-setting all over the country playing a national schedule.

The way it is right now I have no doubt the top associations in Minnesota could compete with and beat the Jr. Blues, Young Americans, and Compuwares of the Tier 1 world anyway.

If Minnesota hockey can't resist this temptation and wants to get into competing in USAH Tier 1 national tournaments I believe the best way to do it would be to form District All Star teams to compete on that level. That way the kids could stay home and play community based/high school hockey yet the top talent would still have an opportunity to compete on that level.

Maybe I am just being selfish and don't want to have to send my son off when he is 14 so he can "develop" his hockey skills. I believe I would be abdicating my responsibilities as his parent during some of his most formitive years by doing so.

SCBlueLiner · Post by **SCBlueLiner** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:39 pm

I'll also add that you should speak with parents (on both sides of this issue) from Missouri who have kids that play for the Jr. Blues, Russell Stover, or even the Omaha AAA team. Parents whose kids are on the team think the money they are paying, $8-$10k & +, is money well spent while parents on the other side (those who play Tier 2, AA hockey which is equivelent to association hockey) think all that money spent is just a waste and those parents are dropping that money so Little Johnny can buy another A.

Proof is in the pudding. Look how many Minnesota kids are going on to juniors or college after H.S. and getting drafted versus other states.

Napalm187 · Post by **Napalm187** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:58 pm

SC -Their is no way that the Edina Pee Wee A team could beat a compuware, Little Caesars or Mission. They'd make it a decent game, but they'd be lucky to win 1-2 out of 20.

We shouldn't just be satisfied that we get MN players to NHL so they can get a cup of coffee or be role players...the only star that MN has produced in the last 20 years is Zach Parise. And his Dad would tell you, he'd never be as good as he is, unless he didn't get the chance to play Tier 1 hockey, after busting out of Jefferson in Pee Wee's. The only player close to being a star over that time frame is David Backes, and you don't find many 6'3 220+ athletes that can skate everyday.

My point about Nick Leddy is that he'd been well more prepared to have a substantial role in the NHL if he'd played Tier 1 growing up. I read in multiple NHL preview columns on Si, yahoo, Espn, tsn, etc. where they were comparing him at his best, in his prime, to be a poor man's Brian Campbell. Not too shabby, but that says his hand skills, decision making and physicality is not up to snuff to be a top 2 D in the league, all-star or very well-paid. Tier 1 would've improved all of that. He was blessed to skate like the wind...and that is what has gotten his this far, but it's the missed training opportunities as a youngster that will hold him back from being an all-star/impact player.

Toronto area hockey players don't have to fly all over for quality competition, nor does the Vancouver area. But they get the best of both worlds. They get to play the best in their local areas, then get to test themselves in the best tourneys in north america if they wish. Toronto and Detroit don't limit their kids options. Their is a reason why Stamkos, Tavares, and lot of NHL superstars come from Ontario. Because of the depth of talent, and limitless development options. We are close in depth of talent as youngsters, but our options are limited for our children to maximize their hockey playing potential.

My question for MN hockey is why we can't have both? Why couldn't their still be association hockey and the option to have two MN Tier 1 teams? That would be satisfying all parties I'd think. What's so hard about it??

SCBlueLiner · Post by **SCBlueLiner** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:12 pm

So would you be for my proposal of district All- Star teams forming to play Tier 1 giving Mn kids the best of both worlds?

Shinbone_News · Post by **Shinbone_News** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:16 pm

I keep hearing this argument that Minnesota doesn't produce any superstars. It's stupid on the face of it. Superstars are by definition few and far between. ANYONE who plays in the NHL is one of 600 players ON THE WHOLE PLANET who gets to play at that level. If Nick Leddy isn't the best D-man in the league for the next decade, I think you may be splitting hairs a bit. And suggesting that playing 10 more games per year, and traveling to Detroit and LA to do it as a 14 year old is... well, it's absurd.

Tier 1 hockey is already here in Minnesota. It's called summer AAA hockey, and it's proven to be as good or better than the in-season AAA that happens everywhere else in the US. (Look at the Machine Orange 00s, for example. No way they lose to Compuware or Young Americans. No. Way.)

Edina PWA beats ANY tier 1 AAA team any day of the week, and I don't even like Edina. Like I said, just because you travel two hours each way to practice twice a week, and then fly to your away games does NOT make you better than the kid who spends every afternoon in Braemar, and finds his best competition about a mile down the road on highway 212... home of, um, Nick Leddy.

2112 · Post by **2112** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:42 pm

Shinbone_News wrote:I keep hearing this argument that Minnesota doesn't produce any superstars. It's stupid on the face of it. Superstars are by definition few and far between. ANYONE who plays in the NHL is one of 600 players ON THE WHOLE PLANET who gets to play at that level. If Nick Leddy isn't the best D-man in the league for the next decade, I think you may be splitting hairs a bit. And suggesting that playing 10 more games per year, and traveling to Detroit and LA to do it as a 14 year old is... well, it's absurd.

Tier 1 hockey is already here in Minnesota. It's called summer AAA hockey, and it's proven to be as good or better than the in-season AAA that happens everywhere else in the US. (Look at the Machine Orange 00s, for example. No way they lose to Compuware or Young Americans. No. Way.)

Edina PWA beats ANY tier 1 AAA team any day of the week, and I don't even like Edina. Like I said, just because you travel two hours each way to practice twice a week, and then fly to your away games does NOT make you better than the kid who spends every afternoon in Braemar, and finds his best competition about a mile down the road on highway 212... home of, um, Nick Leddy.

A tier 11 team played in the Edina Peewee A tourney last year and won a couple of games and tied Centennial. they lost to Edina but remember they only had 99`s on their roster. Minnesota hockey is somewhat competitive because of the older age kids. if no greybeard then it is a joke. Tier 1 teams like mission or Toronto teams blow out the tier 11 teams. Keep your head in the sand, and keep repeating the same montra and everything is good.

Shinbone_News · Post by **Shinbone_News** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:55 pm

Minnesota has placed more players in the NHL than any other state in the country. Minnesota has placed more players in D1 hockey programs than any other state in the country. At every level of hockey, Minnesota is better represented than any other state.

Let's maybe not try to fix what isn't broken???? Maybe????? When what's broken is that Nick Leddy might not be a Hall of Famer someday????

Aimforthefivehole · Post by **Aimforthefivehole** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:07 pm

Top Pee Wee A teams will get 140 + hours of overall ice this season. They will see 65 games against very good competition. I don't think Tier 1 is going to appreciably add much more value than that, I don't know how that is humanly possible given these top teams literally take 2 days off a month. Now the Canada thing in general has much more to do with the fact that most athletes in Canada plays hockey. In MN most kids play other sports and we might argue that our best athletes have never been to a rink before. Had those families chosen hockey over Football, Basketball, etc we'd own hockey like we do the other major sports like we do in the Olympic games. Additionally if you think you have a wringer on your hands you are always free to supplement his training here with dozens of other treadmill and clinic type programs. Tier I works as well but costs a whole lot more.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:12 pm

IHEA wrote:Good case made by Napalm

Problem is obviously tradition and the politics that go with it. The traditionalists that are not even remotely interested in Tier 1 will fight it and that makes up most of the state. The state has to approve a Tier 1 program. Why would they if they think the MHSHL will be tainted?

How did Shattuck get their Tier 1 status? Was it a special grant or did they follow MH bylaws to get it. Can other private schools do the same?

JSR, do you know what bylaws the WI Fire failed to abide by? They had a large majority of MN players on the rosters over the years and practiced mostly out of the Made. Was that the problem? I'm sure things like BM forcing his player to suck his thumb infront of his teammates didn't do the Fire's PR train any.

To my understanidng, as limited as it is

They had to hold "x" number or percentage of their practices and games in WI and they were skirting that by saying the practices were at Somerset but then holding them at the Made (that part is somewhat rumorish but seems reasonable in it's validity) but that wasn't the big issue, the big two issues were percentage of WI kids on the roster relative to out of state kids and also we have sort of a nebulous tecnhincality bylaw that states that the number of Tier 1 teams in our state cannot excede a certain percentage of the association teams in the state and apaprently the Fire were maybe exceding that as well. Honestly, it was alot of "technality" BS, the Fire were causing a firestorm with MN Hockey (pun intended) and the folks at WAHA (WI governing body) were tired of it so they figured outsome technalities in the bylaws as a way to get rid of them is the reality. Honestly, I wish the Fire would have just figured out a way to add a few more WI kids (lots of good ones up north there that would have been quality kids), jus tmade Somerset and/or Baldwin and/or Hudson their full time rink(s) and did not use the Made at all, and did some things within the good graces of WAHA to make it work, our state actually could use a quality fourth Tier 1 team from that part of the state and it would have been an option for some MN kids too. We have Madison, Milwaukee and Green Bay with Tier 1 in this state but we really have no reasonably driveable option for the kids in the Northwest part of the state and I've always felt that seemed a bit unfair. JMHO though

Napalm187 · Post by **Napalm187** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:21 pm

SC-that would be a decent compromise, even better would be the powers that be approved of letting a group of kids that could be let out of association jail to play at the Quebec tourney as pee wee's or other great squirt and bantam tourneys that are known throughout NA. My point is that there are always a handful of truly exceptional athletes and hockey players at each age level and there is no denying that going to tourneys such as these and better hockey "training" that is not found in 95% of association hockey would better serve the best this state can produce. There are better options elsewhere for each regions best hockey athletes, but MN limits these kids and their parents freedom to best choose whatever development path they want.

Pee wee's A top players maybe get in 20-25 quality games each year. If ther was some great player in Silver Bay or Owatonna, they are not getting even 15 quality games a year, like 27 from 00 Blades/Luv. There are not 60 quality games last year for someone like 14 from LVS. Compared to what he was used to getting.

I feel bad for an unbelievable squirt age kid in my association who will never have the development options that some of these older fire players got like 14. He will never play at the same game speed, consistently, that his fellow peers across NA do that put them at the advantage, hence my argument about not producing star players in the NHL from here.

Rusty Blades · Post by **Rusty Blades** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:57 pm

Due to a recent job transfer my son and family for that matter are getting to see the Tier 1 side of hockey for the first time. My son played Choice for two years and progressed up the "Made" ladder from the Grinders to playing on this past years 99 Black. He also played PW A for his Association last year. We recently relocated to Colorado and he is now playing for the U13 (99) Bantan Minor Colorado Thunderbirds. Don't you just love all the team designators?

This is what I can tell you so far:

1-It is expensive compared to Association Hockey
2-You cannot compare Association teams to Tier 1 teams because of the difference in team makeup. Meaning that a team of 99's may be competitive with a midrange Bantam A team that has a range of birth years they will rarely win on a consistent basis. However I have seen the Thunderbirds 98 Team, currently ranked 2nd in the nation, and would bet on them against any Bantam A team in Minnesota. They are a very talented team and well coached by Adam Foote.
3. Having seen Edina's PW A Team I can say this, they wouldn't compete against the top 10 Tier 1 98 teams, 99's they would win less than 50% of the time. Last year's Edina PW A team was very talented but.....
4. There is some validity to the concept that the reason other states have Tier 1 teams is because the lack of talented hockey players in a given area. Minnesota certainly has more skaters and therefor more talent but it isn't concentrated like Tier 1 teams are.

I think Mn Hockey is making a mistake by not allowing one or two Tier 1 teams. It would allow those extremely talented kids to all play together on a team and face top competition on a regular basis. Would it hurt HS Hockey? Who knows but I can't see how taking 15-30 kids from all of Minnesota and allowing them to play somewhere besides their association and HS would change the State of Hockey very little.

We are departing tomorrow morning for a Super Series Tournament in Buffalo, NY and the team is slated to play the No# 10, 11' and 14th ranked teams in the country. To be honest we have no idea how they will do as the team consists of 9 new players. The parents of those that were on the team last year say this year's team is far better than last years so we'll see. I am looking forward to watching the team play against top talent every tournament. Could we get that in Minnesota, sure but so far this has been an enjoyable journey.

I would like to hear from those that have opted out of Association hockey and are traveling south for their hockey this year.

Some of you who read this forum know who I am so if you have questions feel free to give me a call, except for Irish. J/K.

Go Chiefs!

Speaking of Chiefs I heard last week that there is a tournament held in Anahiem in late May if anyone is interested. I could bring my grill.

edgeless2 · Post by **edgeless2** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:31 pm

I think it is foolish to think that this group of Edina PWA's couldn't compete and fare well. Obviously it is oranges to apples but this particular group would win the national title at the 99 level, they would most likely be top 10 at 98 level even though I believe only a third of the team would be 98's if that. This is a special group comparable to the Rau group that won 4 straight PW Bantam titles a few years back. The difference being that most of those kids were together all the way through while this Edina group is only together every other year, which speaks to the younger players summer development. I believe they will have 5 kids off the 00 machine team. So I guess that goes back to MN tier 1 training happening in the summer.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:56 pm

It is interesting to read the same old arguments while seeing new names posting. Rusty, thanks for sharing that. Leaving the Twin Cities and then seeing supposed "big boy" Tier I hockey gives you an informed view I hope you continue to share as the season progresses.

My first thought is that Rusty's boy is playing for a team based in Denver, a pretty well established market. To find competition they are going to Buffalo. Better him than me! I often have conversations with parents in our state that insist on putting all the best kids on one team, then complain how there's nobody to play.

Second, what age are we talking? Some people can weigh in for or against Tier I youth hockey and it sounds like an argument. In discussion they might learn they actually agree...full-blown Tier I is too much too soon for a Squirt team but could be appropriate for second-year Bantams.

Tier I hockey in the Detroit-Chicago corridor is not the same as Tier I hockey in California, Texas, or Georgia. Minnesota could supply the players for Tier I teams, but (as chronicled on this site in 2011) I don't think that day is coming any time soon.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:58 pm

Karl, I'm not sure I follow all your post. Shattuck's teams are registered with USA Hockey and they are coded Tier I. They are the only Tier I team for the Minnesota District and automatically qualify for Nationals as a result. (That's my understanding.)

no5hole · Post by **no5hole** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:22 am

It would be nice to see both association and tier 1 for minnesota. I am always in favor for more hockey options and opportunity. I know of one sw-mn kid that left and went to illinois to play and I would rather see him playing in mn somewhere.

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:36 am

Napalm187 wrote: SC-that would be a decent compromise, even better would be the powers that be approved of letting a group of kids that could be let out of association jail to play at the Quebec tourney as pee wee's or other great squirt and bantam tourneys that are known throughout NA. My point is that there are always a handful of truly exceptional athletes and hockey players at each age level and there is no denying that going to tourneys such as these and better hockey "training" that is not found in 95% of association hockey would better serve the best this state can produce. There are better options elsewhere for each regions best hockey athletes, but MN limits these kids and their parents freedom to best choose whatever development path they want.

Any MN family can jailbreak from MH and do what so many Tier I families do - send the kid out of state to billet with a host family.

Napalm187 wrote:Pee wee's A top players maybe get in 20-25 quality games each year. If ther was some great player in Silver Bay or Owatonna, they are not getting even 15 quality games a year, like 27 from 00 Blades/Luv. There are not 60 quality games last year for someone like 14 from LVS. Compared to what he was used to getting.

Now let's suppose Tier I came to MN. It would most likely be Twin Cities based. So how would Tier I in MN help that Silver Bay kid? JSR is saying that NW Wisconsin kids are underserved by the Tier I programs in their state.

Napalm187 wrote:I feel bad for an unbelievable squirt age kid in my association who will never have the development options that some of these older fire players got like 14. He will never play at the same game speed, consistently, that his fellow peers across NA do that put them at the advantage, hence my argument about not producing star players in the NHL from here.

Too many absolutes in your argument. Tier I is superior in everyway. MN association hockey will never provide adequate development. It's classic hypothesis contrary to fact.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:01 am

The grass is greener? Talking about a squirt kid that will never reach his potential is so foolish doesn't deserve comment. To say MN Hockey stunts development is even dumber. You want MN Hockey to get bigger numbers and better athletes, outlaw all sports except hockey. No more basketball stealing hockey players. No more sports except hockey period. Find the 5-6 year olds that naturally skate the best. Make them Tier 1 players. Move them out of their homes and into dorms to train hockey year round. 2 week visits back home. Then we will produce hockey players!

People that think hockey players are MADE are so foolish. Nick Leddy would have been better if grew up in Toronto? Ha, maybe Montreal as he is more suited to the frog style of play?

How did Reed Larson Neal Broten, Phil Housley, Mike Ramsey, etc play well over 1,000 NHL games growing up playing hockey 5-6 months of the year for associations that didn't even win State?

Want more MN kids in the NHL, outlaw Europeans from the NHL. Especially Russians!

Zach Parise turned out fine, despite a crazy dad. Just think how good he would be if he didn't play Squirt and PW in Bloomington? What about his brother?

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