Legs of the Wolf Part 3 (Tony Scott v. Frederick61)

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:55 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:Bo: You carefully read my posts trying to find any inconsistencies from past posts. I agree with you that MN Hockey has passed this thing without much or any thought has to how it will actually look. Do I think the AA-A proposal has the potential to make youth hockey in Minnesota better? YES.

You constantly throw out 3 sentences posts without any substantial thoughts on what you would do if you were charged with making the rules. You can only point at Edina and Wayzata. The point I have repeatedly tried to get through to you, Associations like Edina, Wayzata, Maple Grove, and you can fill in the blanks on the other perennial TOP associations, these associations have historically run the table at all levels. Squirts to Jr Golds. A's-C's. Boys to Girls. Do you think MN Hockey or anything will change the fact that these associations will dominate under any format?

Now after you get out of your head that MN Hockey can water down these top 5-10 assocations, what's the best format for the other 100+ associations? I have said over and over the AA-A proposal has the potential to provide more levels of play so that the top associations can spread out their talent through more levels. This should allow smaller associations to have a competitive, challenging, beneficial season AND when it comes time for playoffs, these teams could make a run to a State Tournament. And during the season, they can play AA level teams if they can get them scheduled.

The one thing I think could be good is that about 30% of the teams are finished with their season by Valentines Day. And 70% are finished after Districts. I think the season should extend into March for more players.

But, I know you will say late Feb and March is really the START of the REAL hockey season.

What the??? I "carefully read through your posts to find inconsistencies from past posts"? Well I'm glad you admit that you're inconsistent, but all I had to do is read your posts from the top of this page down...

-MNH is telling small associations the can now play A(formerly B-1)
-The mega associations have 2-3 former B-1 teams that were all ranked in the top ten or twenty.
-The mega associations take the best off those ranked teams to play at the new A level
- A will only be comparable to the current B-1 level
- The Mega association A teams would probably rank in the top 30 of AA programs
- These teams will be led to slaughter against them. NO chance at a State Tournament like you try to say.
- I thought MNH was trying to get rid of lopsided scores through this program? More balanced State and Regional tournaments???????
- I try to make this easy for you to understand with short sentences that lay it out.

I'm glad you now agree with me that MNH has passed this through with zero thought....

No, MNH has not changed the fact. That's why I'm explaining it above....... WHERE IS THE CHANGE? WHAT IS GOING TO BE BETTER? I've explained where things will obviously be much worse, but where's the better? All you've been doing lately is agreeing with me.

Why do you always put words in my mouth? I enjoy the Winter season more, but the development and bang for the buck is better in the Summer. We were in a southern state last week and my son wanted me to drive him 60 miles away so he could skate.. I'm no villain because my son plays Summer Hockey.

Have a great and safe weekend!

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:29 pm

So help me understand the AA/A philosophy. All teams in a district are A teams from November to February and sometime in January/February a team will be designated AA. So the Minnesota Hockey rule that to skate peewee AA, you must skate bantam AA will be decided in roughly February. If an association says Peewee AA, the Bantam AA is automatic.

The fact that in early October that association put its top 15 at each level on a team and the second 15 on a team is overlooked by all involved. That the 200 kids and 400 parents involved all go away from tryouts saying my kid made the A team. How will the districts you mentioned schedule league play if they have no AA designation?

The USA hockey registration at the A level is incorrect because USA hockey reserves the AA designation to associations USA hockey deem to have met a higher set of USA standards then A level associations, something that Minnesota Hockey has an exception to. As I said, this is obfuscation.

Greybeard, the path to regionals out state also began with district play. I have been attending out state and metro district league and post tournaments play for about 30 years.

The USA Hockey rule you stated governing play in October was not implemented until the past two seasons and last season was implemented by some districts and associations in a "work around way" because it does not fit the best use of an associations/community’s assets. D10 was the first district to push this rule on their associations. The ironic thing is that D10 usually has the most league games (22) in a season and they deliberately shorten the season. But, Greybeard, the point you made here is a valuable one-a standard rule applied to all is usually wasteful to many. Minnesota Hockey should solve the problem to allow associations to maximize use of ice. That makes everybody a winner. Creating rules to limit use is a loser.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:06 pm

USA Hockey registration is either Tier I or Tier II with Tier II being community based teams. Tier I teams are Honeybaked,Little Ceasers and so forth. USA Hockey uses letter designation for Adult women.
The registration for an AA/A team will read:
Division:MN BANTAM USAH MIDGET or MN PEEWEE USAH BANTAM
Team ID:Assn Initials BA or Assn Initials PA
TEAM NAME:Association name-BANTAM A or PEEWEE A
CLASS: A for both
Category:Travel for both

All District 10 A Bantam teams for the 2011-12 season were registered this way and the associations declared whether AA or A with approval of the District. I see no difference this year with Peewees included the format is already in place,just more teams.
There are 20 columns on the form including players name, DOB,address and also signature.
All AA/A teams will be rostered this way. The letter designation for youth or girls hockey is specific to the state affiliate such as Mn Hockey A,B1,B2,C,House, recreation or Initiation(skill development). The registration rules for USA Hockey start on page 125 in the USA Hockey Annual guide.

The USA Hockey registration rules while implemented in force 3 years ago actually has been on the books for over 20 years and was only enforced when teams started playing a lot of scrimmages(games) with teams outside of the district borders and the enforcement came from USA Hockey Registrar.

For the AA/A declaration it is my understanding that this will occur in sometime in October and then be sent to a Mn Hockey committee for final approval and also so the AA Regions can be planned. As for league play I suggest you take a look at last years District 10 schedule for the A Bantam if it is still public.

When I mentioned District play I should have been more specific, there are a few Districts that require a team to participate in a District run league to participate in their District tournament.

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:04 am

We are talking about USA Hockey Tier II or association hockey. Within Tier II, USA Hockey designates AA and A association by association. The association has to meet USA Hockey AA standards, if not it is declared an A association. Is this not correct?

Minnesota Hockey, for various reasons, declares all Minnesota associations A and lower and does not have to apply USA hockey standards to decide AA or A. Is this correct?

So all the teams will be registered with USA hockey as A teams as has been done in the past. Then by mid-October, a Minnesota Hockey committed will receive district/association designating teams AA or A for purposes of having a Minnesota AA tourney that will be composed of Minnesota teams registered as A teams. Few Minnesota teams play in tourneys outside the state during the season, but some do. What should a USA Hockey A registered but Minnesota designated AA team call themselves?

It is obfuscation.

The rule to enforce restriction on early season games being played outside a district may make sense in Colorado or Illinois where there are fewer districts and travel is common to association hockey teams to find competition. But the rule makes no sense in the Minnesota, especially the Twin City area. There are 50 or so peewee A teams within an half hour drive in D2, D3, D6, D8, and 10. Three years ago, games were common between districts since that made sense to most coaches. The current rule makes no sense to Minnesota Hockey except that a few years ago D10 wanted to restrict D10 teams for D10 reasons only. Allowing play in October officially by lifting such bans would add 2 to 4 weekends to the 2012-2013 season making it a 17-19 weekend season.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:36 am

Fred,
The letter designation you are talking about is not USA Hockey,that is a state affiliate like Wisconsin or Ohio.Please read the USA Hockey Annual guide on registration and then talk with your local District registrar.
What you suggest on the October games would be nice if USA Hockey would change the registration requirements, remember lawyers control and this is all about insurance coverage.
The Affiliate state organization within a USA Hockey District registers associations as Tier I or Tier II as those are the National Championship divisions. Mn Hockey registers all teams as Tier II but because of the age difference does not go to Nationals. Before the age change by Mn Hockey did register teams as Tier I.
If you persist in stating the AA/A for associations is in the USA Hockey registration requirements please show me exactly where it is written. If you find it anywhere but the USA Hockey Annual guide it is not a USA Hockey requirement. If you find it in registration materials sent to a state affiliate then it is a state requirement because the registration materials are sent to the states with their additional requirements.

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:21 am

If I understand you correctly, there are no Tier II AA teams registered by USA hockey. But maybe the association is a AA association under USA Hockey standards. There has to be some distinction since last year since My Hockey Rankings listed 404, 99 peewee Tier II AA/A, teams.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:50 pm

Frederick, the My Hockey rankings don't necessarily jive with how teams register. Grey is pointing out that USA Hockey has one distinction (Tier I or II) and Districts and Affiliates may have their own (AAA, AA, A) in addition.

In the Southeast we can register Tier I, Tier II, Recreational, or Tournament. We also have a line for AAA/AA/A/B etc...

helightsthelamp · Post by **helightsthelamp** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:41 am

IMO the decision to have AA/A was not very well thought out...

It makes sense for the end of the season when playoff time comes, but I don't think it makes any sense for the regular season.

ERPresident has indicated that Elk River will field a AA and A team (which I think is the right decision) .

Makes sense to me when looking at districts, Regions and State. PW and Bantam teams will effectively be an A and B1 team with an added level.

When you look at the regular season, my understanding is both AA and A will compete at the same level until it comes time for districts. This makes zero sense to me. Basically the new designation will create an upper and lower A team that compete against each other. So the ER A team will play the ER AA team during league play as well as the other AA teams from District 10, as such they would likely also play a league game agains AA teams from Andover, Blaine, Centennial, Anoka Etc... So basically you will have former B1 teams playing former A teams just to add another level of playoffs at the end of the season, how does this make sense. In addition, the smaller associations that may have competed or at least have been middle of the pack at B1 level will also have to face the AA teams in league play if they choose to play at the A level. This creates more disparity, not parity and will likely result in more blow-out games.

What about tournaments during the year, IMO I think there is a much greater chance for disparity in these as well, as you could have both AA and A in the same tournament. Sure the top end tourneys like the Edina Invitational will be fine as they will field the AA teams, but what about other tournaments, one AA team could run the table in some instances.

In short, I guess I don't see how combining the in season level (which is a much longer timeframe and consists of many more games) skaters 1-15 into the same league as skaters 16-30 just to create an additional path to the state tournament.

I know it would have been a lot more work and created more logistical issues for outstate teams, but why not have the AA, A, B1.... designation for the entire season instead of just for the end of season playoffs.

Maybe I am missing something, but to me this just does not make much sense when you look at the big picture of the entire season, and not just the playoffs.

Mnhockeys · Post by **Mnhockeys** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:30 am

I have asked the similar questions about fielding teams before seasons starts, regular season schedules, association hosted tournament and etc.

No one gave an answer!!!

It appears another experiment going to be conducted on the kids and see what happens as we go.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:08 am

Each District will look at the number of AA and A teams and formulate their District game schedule accordingly. Rochester Red is the only AA team in D9 and has been removed from regular season league play the past two seasons. Other Districts will do similarly so that AA teams play AA teams and A teams play A teams. Cross-over games should be allowed, not forced. If a District only has 1 AA team like D9, then that team would have to schedule their own games.

If you look at most PW and Bantam teams, they play about 15-20 District games. So how do they get the other 40 games scheduled? Some are tournaments and they attend tournaments with similar talent levels. Then they get on the e-mail and schedule games with other similar opponents. How hard is this to figure out?

As for "A" being the new "B1". The number of teams and the parity top to bottom will be much better than in the past. Removal of the top 40+ current A teams to AA will level the A playing field. Inserting top level B1 teams to the A level should keep the number of A teams around 100.

I know Bo is worried that Edina will still be the best association at all levels. But don't schedule games with them! There are 99 other associations to schedule games with. The sky is not falling

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:35 am

Bo: If tryouts were today, what level will your boy most likely play next season? AA, A, B1, B2 or C?

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:12 pm

So the ultimate goal is to turn all the other districts into a District 9 to avoid playing AA/A crossover games for the sake of making 15 kids in each AA association more competitive at the sacrifice of 30 kids in all the associations? Rochester has to split its association into two or more and become competitive instead of trying to turn all the districts into Rochester based hockey.

Maybe then you will see a Rochester team in the state tourney besides Lourdes.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:46 pm

Fred: Work your magic and get Rochester back into District 8! Then District 9 can be one big happy family! At the A level of course!

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:13 pm

Fred the kids that played on that Roch Red Bantam A team that took 2nd @ state would be grads/12th grasers this year. How many ended up @ Lourds??? Just curious.

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:47 pm

For what is is worth, here is the data.

The 2008-2009 Rochester Red lost to Wayzata in the 2009 state finals at Thief River Falls.

The following 2008-2009 Rochester Red players played for Lourdes last year (listed by total points for the Lourdes team): #1 scorer Jason Samuelson 55 points (25 goals), #3 scorer Landon Farrell 43 points (14 goals), #4 scorer Justin Dewitz 33 points (9 goals), #5 scorer Karl Krecke 20 points (9 goals), #7 scorer Connor Neilands 13 points (7 goals), #8 scorer Ryan Nicolay 12 points (7 goals), #9 scorer Erik Potvin 12 points (5 goals), and #11 scorer Robbie Campbell 9 points (2 goals).

Dominc Jacobs (#2 scorer), Brandon Kautz (#3 scorer), Blake Heroff (#6 scorer), and Goalie Erik Wennberg played for Rochester Century.

None played for Mayo.

Alec McGinn (#4 scorer), Matt Broman (#10 scorer), and Ryan Laking (#12 scorer) all played for John Marshall.

Three kids I couldn’t place.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:15 pm

Thanx Fred, I find that interesting. It's almost like Lourds has it's own feeder program. I remember watching them play as BA's. They were great. Wayzata had that 1st line w/Luchia/besse/Opperman.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:39 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:Each District will look at the number of AA and A teams and formulate their District game schedule accordingly. Rochester Red is the only AA team in D9 and has been removed from regular season league play the past two seasons. Other Districts will do similarly so that AA teams play AA teams and A teams play A teams. Cross-over games should be allowed, not forced. If a District only has 1 AA team like D9, then that team would have to schedule their own games.

If you look at most PW and Bantam teams, they play about 15-20 District games. So how do they get the other 40 games scheduled? Some are tournaments and they attend tournaments with similar talent levels. Then they get on the e-mail and schedule games with other similar opponents. How hard is this to figure out?

As for "A" being the new "B1". The number of teams and the parity top to bottom will be much better than in the past. Removal of the top 40+ current A teams to AA will level the A playing field. Inserting top level B1 teams to the A level should keep the number of A teams around 100.

I know Bo is worried that Edina will still be the best association at all levels. But don't schedule games with them! There are 99 other associations to schedule games with. The sky is not falling

What? You were talking about change and a new opportunity for other associations to make the new A Tournament.

Try to comprehend bud!!!

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:04 am

Interesting you would bring up the 2008-09 Rochester Red Bantam A Team Fred. Very well coached team, and the players you are missing are Brock Kautz (left Century for the NAHL after 10th Grade) and Tyler Vesel, #2 scorer for S-SM Prep. Any chance a gifted scorer and (at the time) top level goalie could help a Bantam team make a run with a strong coaching staff? (Lourdes coach at the time was son of Bantam A head coach)

This Lourdes team had 5 transfers from the Rochester public schools and 1 driving to/from Winona each day. (All wanted better coaching and a shot at playing at the X) Could one say Section 1A is an easy path to State? Or is there an easier path in any Section?

But with about 100 Bantams total, how many of you would suggest 3 or 4 programs by high school boundaries? How many associations have a total of 25-30 players at the Bantam level?

Do all the Edina Bantam A's play HS at Edina? How about all Eden Prairie Bantam A's play for EPHS? How about Woodbury, all play for Woodbury High? The only program that truly fields 2 programs is Lakeville, though I bet many Bantam A's still go elsewhere. Many others could, but choose not to.

And to Bo, answer my question, what level will your kid play at next season? You are too dumb to answer my question but your posts are telling how tunneled your vision is.