Legs of the Wolf (Tony Scott v. Frederick61)

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:23 pm

Freddie and I debate the merits of the new AA/A split. I like it and here's why.

Tony: http://youthhockeyhub.com/legs-of-the-w ... ony-scott/

Freddie sees some long term flaws. We decided to take our debate public.

Fred: http://youthhockeyhub.com/legs-of-the-wolf-part-2/

For some background on the "legs", read this story published last month as a preview. http://youthhockeyhub.com/the-legs-of-the-wolf-part-1/

Enjoy.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:49 pm

Why don.t you ever count Stillwater in you "BIG NINE" ?????

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:23 am

An Elite 32 that MNH has set up to combat against any push for tier 1 in this state. Do you still think the talent won't migrate to these associations, if the plan for developing players now rests on the Elite 32 regulars? No players/parents will want to be left behind.

Get ready for fugly!

MNH is creating tier 1/club Hockey on their own terms.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:08 am

Bantam VFW will still be A/ what team will the"BIG NINE" send to that league? Maroon and gold will stay the same I would think.

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:08 am

OG - I always forget SW...my bad. The number of associations will probably be fluid. White Bear is iffy.

Prior Lake, EP and MPLS have enough kids to be in there, too.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:51 pm

No biggy, They have a ton of kids.EP/Mpls/Prior I would think for sure.

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:07 pm

The question I would ask is what will peewee AA/A look like five years from now? That will be the legacy of this decision if it survives.

Second, I know St. Cloud, St Michael/Albertville, Buffalo, and possibly River Lakes are looking at having a AA team. Do they play a Big 9 schedule as well as D5? The best team in D5 this coming season should be MAML. Where will they fit in this scheme? What about Moorhead, Roseau, Grand Rapids, Hermantown, Cloquet, and Duluth East?

Just think, now you can travel the state on the weekends playing AA hockey in the “big 9”. That is what Rochester wants all the AA teams to do so Rochester can compete on the weekends and avoid playing in D9. Is that what Roseau wants?

Here is another one nobody is thinking about. Can Minnesota associations hold a AA/A tournament such as Bloomington’s and attract A, AA teams (or even AAA teams) from outside the state. Who at Minnesota Hockey is deciding this stuff?

In my post, I asked who at Minnesota Hockey will be the “decider” and, sorry, Tony, you didn’t come up with an answer in your response. I will give you an answer, nobody is even thinking about it until the mess happens. By the way, teams in other states run afoul with these decisions because Minnesota Hockey lets the associations decide and in the end nobody knows.

The debate point next week is how will the 32 teams be selected? We know nobody at Minnesota Hockey is planned to do that.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:17 pm

Who came up w/this magic #32?? Thought any assc. /a AA highschool had to go AA.[I would think most or all would want to.]

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:59 pm

Just think, now you can travel the state on the weekends playing AA hockey in the “big 9”. That is what Rochester wants all the AA teams to do so Rochester can compete on the weekends and avoid playing in D9. Is that what Roseau wants?

I would say quite possibly yes that is what alot of parents, and even SOME coaches and admins want. THink about it, in other states like here in Wisconsin we don't think twice about kids playing for a team like the Capitols in the winter and they travel to Pittsburgh, Ohio, Detroit and Illinois. As well as Green Bay and Milwaukee in state. So what is the big deal about having to travel around "in state". On one of the Caps teams (this is a Madison, WI based team mind you) they have a goalie from MN who lives in MN. There are plenty of folks just clamoring for this type of set up. Not suggesting it is good or bad or otherwise but I think it is fact whether you agree or not.

Here is another one nobody is thinking about. Can Minnesota associations hold a AA/A tournament such as Bloomington’s and attract A, AA teams (or even AAA teams) from outside the state. Who at Minnesota Hockey is deciding this stuff?

Yes, I think you have a great chance of attracting out of state AA and AAA teams to tournaments with this model if that is what they want to do. Much better chance than they do now actually with the current model.

FYI, I see the pitfalls of this plan for your state as MN is unique in hockey but I do also see the potential benefits to SOME folks.

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:12 pm

old goalie85 wrote:Who came up w/this magic #32?? Thought any assc. /a AA highschool had to go AA.[I would think most or all would want to.]

32 is the number of teams making it to regions (4, 8 team regions).

I suspect there will be more than 32 associations at AA.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:00 pm

I see.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:52 am

I can understand Freddy's position on "what will happen". Reading his article reinforces that he has no understanding of what has been proposed and adopted. (i.e. there will be no mid-season, seat-of-the-pants decision making as to who is AA or who is A.)

Tony has a much better grasp on the situation.

So there can be no debate on their two positions.

There is no doubt people like MrBoDangles will fear some kid is getting better while their kid is getting worse. The AA-A model for State Tournaments will not hamper any player's development. District-Regions-State comprise about 10 games. And 90% of the future "A-Level" teams get knocked out in a play-in game or don't even make it to Districts, let alone regions. The AA-A model will allow far more players to continue playing games past Valentine's Day!

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:34 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:I can understand Freddy's position on "what will happen". Reading his article reinforces that he has no understanding of what has been proposed and adopted. (i.e. there will be no mid-season, seat-of-the-pants decision making as to who is AA or who is A.)

Tony has a much better grasp on the situation.

So there can be no debate on their two positions.

There is no doubt people like MrBoDangles will fear some kid is getting better while their kid is getting worse. The AA-A model for State Tournaments will not hamper any player's development. District-Regions-State comprise about 10 games. And 90% of the future "A-Level" teams get knocked out in a play-in game or don't even make it to Districts, let alone regions. The AA-A model will allow far more players to continue playing games past Valentine's Day!

You forget so easy?

I'll direct you back to the AA/A topic...

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:26 am

Bo: Forgeting what? You don't even know what your fear is about. You have made no sense in any of your rants. Your association will not be AA and that bothers you. But nothing changes until Districts and instead of not making it to Districts, now your association might make it to A level State. Yet you are afraid to tell people your kid plays A hockey, not AA. Just tell them he plays AAA hockey and the Gophers are already recruiting him.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:51 am

BadgerBob82 wrote:Bo: Forgeting what? You don't even know what your fear is about. You have made no sense in any of your rants. Your association will not be AA and that bothers you. But nothing changes until Districts and instead of not making it to Districts, now your association might make it to A level State. Yet you are afraid to tell people your kid plays A hockey, not AA. Just tell them he plays AAA hockey and the Gophers are already recruiting him.

Nice! I see you've deleted some of your posts on the other thread..... We explained the negative effects in the AA/A topic and even YOU started to get it.

Yes, I think there is a problem with development when almost all the advanced program kids come from mega associations.

One mega association had seven(?) Bantam teams and six kids in the Advanced 15 program.

I can see over 30 associations with a combined 112(plenty more out there) Bantam teams that have ZERO in the program.

Obviously there's a problem, right?

Now the problems will only be magnified...............Right?

Cambridge-Isanti had a group of 5-6 kids that never got any credit for their Hockey talent. They moved away(8th or 9th) and were instantly on the map(noticed) at Blaine, Hill.. etc.

observer · Post by **observer** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:28 pm

Cambridge-Isanti had a group of 5-6 kids that never got any credit for their Hockey talent. They moved away(8th or 9th) and were instantly on the map(noticed) at Blaine, Hill.. etc.

You're right on there Bo. Happens at all levels, boys and girls. Association and High School coaches promoting their own players when they have to know in their hearts there are other more deserving players. They know in their hearts because they're there watching like everyone else that is amazed at some of the misses.

The other problem is these players get the nod again and again, over other superior players, just because they got the initial nod. Getting it wrong once is one thing but to get it wrong 2-3 years in a row is a poor refection on the selection committees.

Where they play should have zero bearing but those are the coaches making the decisions.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:57 pm

Bo: First off, I am not real good with computers, and have absolutely no clue how to delete a post. So not sure if any were deleted, but I didn't and couldn't if I tried. Keep in mind, there have been several threads, and many that were hijacked, so keep looking if you want to try and find a contradiction in what I've ever said.

If you place your fears in the AA-A proposal on who and how many associations place kids in post season programs, I think you need a reality check. As observer said, many of these "elite" kids get "noticed" as 8-10 year old summer AAA players and are rubber stamped to whatever tryout they attend. More a function of who is "picking the team" than how good players are that get overlooked.

A better indication is your story of 5-6 kids in C-I that bailed and were immediately "noticed" at premier programs like Blaine, Hill, etc. That supports my theory that small programs like C-I, STMA, LuVerne develop players even though they are not mega associations or perennial State Champ contenders.

Now imagine C-I having a strong core of kids, good coaching, maybe a strong goalie and making to Class A state tournament and winning it! But even with their 5 player core, they'd get knocked out of Districts every year because mega associations have 12-14 players deep and 2 strong goalies.

Your fear seems to stem from "being noticed" as "elite" and is not truly about "development".

Bluewhitefan · Post by **Bluewhitefan** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:13 pm

[quoteNow imagine C-I having a strong core of kids, good coaching, maybe a strong goalie and making to Class A state tournament and winning it! But even with their 5 player core, they'd get knocked out of Districts every year because mega associations have 12-14 players deep and 2 strong goalies.
[/quote]

If the mega association continues to field a AA team, then you won't play them in districts - unless they also field an A team, in which case your 5-deep A team would be playing their 16-30 kids. Duluth Denfeld won the state B1 title at Bantams under this scenario.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:57 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:Bo: First off, I am not real good with computers, and have absolutely no clue how to delete a post. So not sure if any were deleted, but I didn't and couldn't if I tried. Keep in mind, there have been several threads, and many that were hijacked, so keep looking if you want to try and find a contradiction in what I've ever said.

If you place your fears in the AA-A proposal on who and how many associations place kids in post season programs, I think you need a reality check. As observer said, many of these "elite" kids get "noticed" as 8-10 year old summer AAA players and are rubber stamped to whatever tryout they attend. More a function of who is "picking the team" than how good players are that get overlooked.

A better indication is your story of 5-6 kids in C-I that bailed and were immediately "noticed" at premier programs like Blaine, Hill, etc. That supports my theory that small programs like C-I, STMA, LuVerne develop players even though they are not mega associations or perennial State Champ contenders.

Now imagine C-I having a strong core of kids, good coaching, maybe a strong goalie and making to Class A state tournament and winning it! But even with their 5 player core, they'd get knocked out of Districts every year because mega associations have 12-14 players deep and 2 strong goalies.

Your fear seems to stem from "being noticed" as "elite" and is not truly about "development".

You didn't comprehend Observer's post. You didn't comprehend my post.

We've been through this many times.... People have explained to you how it won't work and the negative effects.

You say "they'll (MNH) mess this up and set us back 10 years" but "if they did it my way it would be great".

You better speak up fast if you don't want us set back ten years.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:20 am

I get your position Bo. The "elite" tag is being placed on mega association kids early and you think moving forward only AA team kids will be noticed and tagged as "elite"? Yet who cares if the Machine or Blades only want AA association kids? Or if Advanced 15's are 75% AA association kids. This is the part of your argument I don't understand or agree with.

When I say MN Hockey will probably get it wrong, that is because I think too many special interests will insert their power and alter doing what's right. And it won't be the mega associations as the AA-A format is good for the big program either way. I think the vocal minority, the small association with inferiority complex will create a bunch of loopholes or goofy criteria in hopes of benefitting their own association and that will mess up the whole thing.

You are blinded thinking your kid will be ignored in an A level program. Your ego gets the best of you again!

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:04 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:I get your position Bo. The "elite" tag is being placed on mega association kids early and you think moving forward only AA team kids will be noticed and tagged as "elite"? Yet who cares if the Machine or Blades only want AA association kids? Or if Advanced 15's are 75% AA association kids. This is the part of your argument I don't understand or agree with.

When I say MN Hockey will probably get it wrong, that is because I think too many special interests will insert their power and alter doing what's right. And it won't be the mega associations as the AA-A format is good for the big program either way. I think the vocal minority, the small association with inferiority complex will create a bunch of loopholes or goofy criteria in hopes of benefitting their own association and that will mess up the whole thing.

You are blinded thinking your kid will be ignored in an A level program. Your ego gets the best of you again!

I'm just looking for an equal opportunity for all kids.

Bring in outside evaluators to an Advanced 15's type program and things would be much different...... If this is what you're getting at..?

"Loopholes" to do what?

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:40 am

Bo: Provide an equal opportunity for all kids? Explain what you mean. How would AA-A not provide an equal opportunity to all kids? This is what I just don't understand.

Why are you concerned about Advanced Programs in relation to AA-A proposal?

As for the loopholes. Is hard to name just one. But I can envision a powerful District Director, with a tie to a particular association or two that might get strings pulled to benefit an association that wouldn't be allowed otherwise. No specific loophole examples, just the thought that MN Hockey will make special deals for special interest groups.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:12 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:Bo: Provide an equal opportunity for all kids? Explain what you mean. How would AA-A not provide an equal opportunity to all kids? This is what I just don't understand.

Why are you concerned about Advanced Programs in relation to AA-A proposal?

As for the loopholes. Is hard to name just one. But I can envision a powerful District Director, with a tie to a particular association or two that might get strings pulled to benefit an association that wouldn't be allowed otherwise. No specific loophole examples, just the thought that MN Hockey will make special deals for special interest groups.

YOU brought up the advancement of kids.... You were wondering how the little kid in Edina (you said PeeWee size kid, that played like a little PeeWee, that made the cut in *15's thread) made it after watching him. You seem to be lost all the time..... Where do you stand?

-District 10 doesn't allow kids from B-1 associations in the Advanced program
-District 10 tries HARD to deter B-1 kids from waiving into other associations to play A
- A is the new B-1

You can't describe any "specific loophole examples" because there are no "loopholes" for the small associations you talk about. The only "special interest groups" are for the mega associations.

You're very clouded in the head.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:30 pm

What a minute Bo. I was reading other posts that a kid from Edina made the team and I was asking if this might have been the kid. And I don't know the names of any kids on that 15 list nor do I know their home association. So I was asking a question if the fuss might have been about that kid. And the only I asked was from watching that game, it was obvious he was out of place in that game. In size and playing ability. So don't connect the dots about my thoughts on nepotism or advancement.

You speak in riddles, so I am starting to string together that your association doesn't have an A team? So your kid plays B's? And B's are not nominated for "All-Star" teams post season? So you are against AA-A because your association won't move up to A's? Though if they did move to A's (The new B1's) then your kid might have a chance to play against AA level teams? I am starting to better understand your frustration. And if your kid really is forced to play B's as District 10 won't allow waivers to allow him to play at his skill level (Assuming he would make the A team if waivered?) I would be very frustrated too! District 10 is unfairly holding your kid hostage in your own association?

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:31 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:What a minute Bo. I was reading other posts that a kid from Edina made the team and I was asking if this might have been the kid. And I don't know the names of any kids on that 15 list nor do I know their home association. So I was asking a question if the fuss might have been about that kid. And the only I asked was from watching that game, it was obvious he was out of place in that game. In size and playing ability. So don't connect the dots about my thoughts on nepotism or advancement.

You speak in riddles, so I am starting to string together that your association doesn't have an A team? So your kid plays B's? And B's are not nominated for "All-Star" teams post season? So you are against AA-A because your association won't move up to A's? Though if they did move to A's (The new B1's) then your kid might have a chance to play against AA level teams? I am starting to better understand your frustration. And if your kid really is forced to play B's as District 10 won't allow waivers to allow him to play at his skill level (Assuming he would make the A team if waivered?) I would be very frustrated too! District 10 is unfairly holding your kid hostage in your own association?

I thought you understood how nothing will change..Or this will "set MNH back 10 years"?

-Edina will have an AA team and an A team that will slaughter wannabe A teams.
-Borderline AA teams will still get beaten by the Wayzata's in the first round or two of these "new" State Tournaments. No more games..
-Kids will migrate at a higher rate to the Elite 32 that are regulars in this exciting new "Elite 32 Tournament"
- AA is the new A, no matter what way you look at it
- Small associations are now told they should move up to play A against Edina's 16-30.... is that what this is for? Their plan will make things even more lopsided.
- The rich will get richer by them making the highest level of competition fewer in numbers.
-I'll keep going if you want me to.

I directed your comments about the kid to the 15's topic.