NTDP U17 Losing Streak

[unsportsmanlikeconduct]

was just on the NTDP site and noticed the U17s have lost the last 12/13 games listed on their stat page, maybe just the end of a long season???

[DubCHAGuy]

was just on the NTDP site and noticed the U17s have lost the last 12/13 games listed on their stat page, maybe just the end of a long season???

I'd say so. There is a big difference between 17 year olds and 19 year olds physically. Regardless of the talent level, it's only a matter of time before the young kids can't keep playing at the same level.

[nobama]

Then why do it if the result is this.

[JSR]

In watching the past couple of seasons I thought the U18 made the right move going to the USHL, however I think the U17 team should have stayed in the NAHL. I think it would have been a better fit personally

[SuperStar]

I agree.. With a record of 11-22 so far this season vs USHL and a 0-2 record against the NAHL. 7 of those wins coming from 2 teams, I think they should have stayed as well.

[SuperStar]

Also, looking at the U18 team there record is follows:

vs USHL 17 - 16

vs College (D1 & D3 mix) 7-8-2

Not sure if this the outcome they are looking for or if it's just a off year for these 2 squads.....All in the eye of the beholder I guess.

[muckandgrind]

The purpose of the NTDP is to develop players to participate in International tournaments, and to that, the U-17 was very competitive this past year. I wouldn't pay much attention to their win/loss record in the USHL, as someone else already mentioned, they are playing against guys 2+ years older than they are.

[Gopher Blog]

The purpose of the NTDP is to develop players to participate in International tournaments, and to that, the U-17 was very competitive this past year. I wouldn't pay much attention to their win/loss record in the USHL, as someone else already mentioned, they are playing against guys 2+ years older than they are.

Agreed. It is about pushing their development and challenging them. The USHL is the best place for that. The won-loss record in that venue is not the point. It is the development of the players and the prep for international events that they are aiming for.

[deacon64]

Not a big believer in losing creates winners. Yes competitive improves skills and performance, but losing does not.

[4thlineproblems]

One interesting thing about the 17s is that they lift weights and workout on gamedays. They dont have set PP lines and rotate all guys in. The 17 year is said to be more about development while the 18 year is more concentrated on winning i have heard.

Also, i have not seen them play but it seems that goaltending is a problem for them in ushl games. Most of the gamesheets i have looked at its seem like they often out shoot the other teams but end up losing. A lot of it could be that they are young and have some D-Zone breakdowns.... Just my thoughts

[Gopher Blog]

Not a big believer in losing creates winners. Yes competitive improves skills and performance, but losing does not.

Your theory doesn't seem to hold water when the NTDP teams go up against their peers in international events. For instance, the U18 team has won the gold medal at 5 of the last 7 World U18 championships. The fact that they push themselves against better teams seems to benefit them when it counts most.

[SuperStar]

At what point does winning count then? Next year, the year after, year after that. At some time winning does need to be the objective, otherwise - why even play?

I do understand your point about International competition.

But how then can you justify spending Millions of dollars so the U17 team can play 9 games that apparently "really matter" and "count". When almost no one cares at all or even has heard of the Vlad Druzilla tourney in Slovkia/Russia....

Why not use those millions and skip the occasional "really important" 3 game tourney in timm-buck-too and create more development for more players across the country. Instead of taking 18 kids to Germany for polish sausage, cookies and a site seeing trip - oh yeah, and then play a couple games that NO ONE even gives a rats a** about...

I am a supporter of a National team/program/development..Just wondering if we can make it better for more kids..?

Maybe use that money and create 4 regional teams across the country and play USHL/NAHL/BCHL teams and against each other??

[Gopher Blog]

The NTDP states the following:

"the goal of this full-time development program is to prepare student-athletes under the age of 18 for participation on U.S. National Teams and success in their future hockey careers."

In other words, it is to do two things... prepare them for future international events (Worlds, Olympics, etc) and to make them better hockey players for other levels. Given their results in international competition have been much improved since the NTDP started and the reality that a ton of its former players are high quality pro players, I'm not sure we can say they have failed in their mission.

I am not a big proponent of the NTDP. In fact, I rather loathe how it sometimes seems to take credit for development given they pluck players from local youth programs that did a lot to help in skill development. But I also know the program has achieved what it states.

I also think that lamenting whether to play against USHL or NAHL is a bit ridiculous. Its not going to hurt them as players. If all you ever do is get the easy route (or easier competition), how are you ever going to handle adversity and tougher challenges in life?

Most of these NTDP kids move on to winning college programs, etc. I guess they must be able to shake the "losing" trait they developed with the NTDP then.

[nobama]

a couple can shake it but those who can't shake it is the majority.

[O-townClown]

I have a friend who is a minor-league baseball manager. He's worked his way up steadily to higher and higher levels, and when I asked why he says it is because he helps players get better. The goal for his teams is to prepare players for the major leagues. If he wins and the parent club does not feel players are improving, he could be in trouble.

These outcomes - player development and team success - are not mutually exclusive. I see the NTDP the same way. Of course, they could cherry-pick opponents in order to win more. They don't, opting instead for what amounts to a group baptism by fire. The younger team loses - a lot - as a result.

Does it work?

I guess that's up for debate and I don't know that everyone will ever agree.

[JSR]

The purpose of the NTDP is to develop players to participate in International tournaments, and to that, the U-17 was very competitive this past year. I wouldn't pay much attention to their win/loss record in the USHL, as someone else already mentioned, they are playing against guys 2+ years older than they are.

Yea, but they are playing against guys who are for the most part 2+ years older than them in the NAHL as well. I also don't think the U17's would be much better than .500 in the NAHl and they'd get pushed pelnty there but have a tiny bit more success which in and of itself does teach certain things and I doubt their international play would suffer. Let's also take the otherside of the coin, what is playing the U17's doing for the regular players on the other USHL teams, are they not looking to be pushed and better themselves for potential D1 play and beyond as well? Like I said, it appears to me the U18's are appropriate for the USHL but I think the U17's should go back to the NAHL for the bettermeant of all involved. JMHO

[muckandgrind]

The purpose of the NTDP is to develop players to participate in International tournaments, and to that, the U-17 was very competitive this past year. I wouldn't pay much attention to their win/loss record in the USHL, as someone else already mentioned, they are playing against guys 2+ years older than they are.

Yea, but they are playing against guys who are for the most part 2+ years older than them in the NAHL as well. I also don't think the U17's would be much better than .500 in the NAHl and they'd get pushed pelnty there but have a tiny bit more success which in and of itself does teach certain things and I doubt their international play would suffer. Let's also take the otherside of the coin, what is playing the U17's doing for the regular players on the other USHL teams, are they not looking to be pushed and better themselves for potential D1 play and beyond as well? Like I said, it appears to me the U18's are appropriate for the USHL but I think the U17's should go back to the NAHL for the bettermeant of all involved. JMHO

If this team was struggling in their Int'l play, then I'd agree with you.

I don't think the USHL teams are hurt by playing the 17's (as you suggest). For them, it's only a game or two playing against the young kids, but for the 17's, they are being pushed night in and night out.

[JSR]

The purpose of the NTDP is to develop players to participate in International tournaments, and to that, the U-17 was very competitive this past year. I wouldn't pay much attention to their win/loss record in the USHL, as someone else already mentioned, they are playing against guys 2+ years older than they are.

Yea, but they are playing against guys who are for the most part 2+ years older than them in the NAHL as well. I also don't think the U17's would be much better than .500 in the NAHl and they'd get pushed pelnty there but have a tiny bit more success which in and of itself does teach certain things and I doubt their international play would suffer. Let's also take the otherside of the coin, what is playing the U17's doing for the regular players on the other USHL teams, are they not looking to be pushed and better themselves for potential D1 play and beyond as well? Like I said, it appears to me the U18's are appropriate for the USHL but I think the U17's should go back to the NAHL for the bettermeant of all involved. JMHO

If this team was struggling in their Int'l play, then I'd agree with you.

I don't think the USHL teams are hurt by playing the 17's (as you suggest). For them, it's only a game or two playing against the young kids, but for the 17's, they are being pushed night in and night out.

Well to be fair to the argument while the U17's didn't win a ton of games on the scoreboard atleast most of the games were competitive, it's not like they were getting blown out every night. Also, technically some teams in teh USHL do play the U17 team more than 1 or 2 games. The Youngstown Phantoms for instance played the U17 team 6 times this season and the Indiana Ice played the U17's five times and Muskegon 5 times as a couple of examples. And something else I did not account for was the fact that the U18's and U17's basically "split" the USHL schedule in half so neither team is playing a full USHL schedule on their own, so I guess it probably does work ok from that aspect.

[Tornadoes 2003StateChamps]

I agree the goaltending has been an issue for this team; young and inexperienced. Cool paint jobs doesn't help stop the puck. They must not have anyone working with the goalies. If they do, they should look at other options.

One interesting thing about the 17s is that they lift weights and workout on gamedays. They dont have set PP lines and rotate all guys in. The 17 year is said to be more about development while the 18 year is more concentrated on winning i have heard.

Also, i have not seen them play but it seems that goaltending is a problem for them in ushl games. Most of the gamesheets i have looked at its seem like they often out shoot the other teams but end up losing. A lot of it could be that they are young and have some D-Zone breakdowns.... Just my thoughts

[MrBoDangles]

I agree the goaltending has been an issue for this team; young and inexperienced. Cool paint jobs doesn't help stop the puck. They must not have anyone working with the goalies. If they do, they should look at other options.

One interesting thing about the 17s is that they lift weights and workout on gamedays. They dont have set PP lines and rotate all guys in. The 17 year is said to be more about development while the 18 year is more concentrated on winning i have heard.

Also, i have not seen them play but it seems that goaltending is a problem for them in ushl games. Most of the gamesheets i have looked at its seem like they often out shoot the other teams but end up losing. A lot of it could be that they are young and have some D-Zone breakdowns.... Just my thoughts

I think Miska has won best goalie/player of every international tounament USA has been in when playing against same birthyear opponents. He saved 66 of 68 in the Russian tournament! He has been way ahead in performance when compared to the other goalie on the team...... I think Frye is at .782 for a save percentage.

The USHL was probably too high of a level for the team of 16 year olds.

I'm sure Miska's save percentages would be well over .9 if they played an NAHL schedule like they did last year.... And I'm pretty sure that even the two Under 18 goalies are under .900 this year.

[Tornadoes 2003StateChamps]

Curtis Frye is a big kid, 604. He fills the net well and he moves well. Neither goalie has impressive stats: .854 (Miska) and .786 (Frye).

Look at Collin Olson (.903) and Jared Rutledge (.920) from the previous season. It's embarassing when you compare the stats which reflects poorly on the goalie instructor. That's my point. These goalies deserve better or maybe they've peaked and the instructor has done all he can do. Someone's failing and the buck usually stops and points at the kid between the pipes.

I agree the goaltending has been an issue for this team; young and inexperienced. Cool paint jobs doesn't help stop the puck. They must not have anyone working with the goalies. If they do, they should look at other options.

One interesting thing about the 17s is that they lift weights and workout on gamedays. They dont have set PP lines and rotate all guys in. The 17 year is said to be more about development while the 18 year is more concentrated on winning i have heard.

Also, i have not seen them play but it seems that goaltending is a problem for them in ushl games. Most of the gamesheets i have looked at its seem like they often out shoot the other teams but end up losing. A lot of it could be that they are young and have some D-Zone breakdowns.... Just my thoughts

I think Miska has won best goalie/player of every international tounament USA has been in when playing against same birthyear opponents. He saved 66 of 68 in the Russian tournament! He has been way ahead in performance when compared to the other goalie on the team...... I think Frye is at .782 for a save percentage.

The USHL was probably too high of a level for the team of 16 year olds.

I'm sure Miska's save percentages would be well over .9 if they played an NAHL schedule like they did last year.... And I'm pretty sure that even the two Under 18 goalies are under .900 this year.

[MrBoDangles]

Curtis Frye is a big kid, 604. He fills the net well and he moves well. Neither goalie has impressive stats: .854 (Miska) and .786 (Frye).

Look at Collin Olson (.903) and Jared Rutledge (.920) from the previous season. It's embarassing when you compare the stats which reflects poorly on the goalie instructor. That's my point. These goalies deserve better or maybe they've peaked and the instructor has done all he can do. Someone's failing and the buck usually stops and points at the kid between the pipes.

I agree the goaltending has been an issue for this team; young and inexperienced. Cool paint jobs doesn't help stop the puck. They must not have anyone working with the goalies. If they do, they should look at other options.

I think Miska has won best goalie/player of every international tounament USA has been in when playing against same birthyear opponents. He saved 66 of 68 in the Russian tournament! He has been way ahead in performance when compared to the other goalie on the team...... I think Frye is at .782 for a save percentage.

The USHL was probably too high of a level for the team of 16 year olds.

I'm sure Miska's save percentages would be well over .9 if they played an NAHL schedule like they did last year.... And I'm pretty sure that even the two Under 18 goalies are under .900 this year.

Did Rutledge and Olson not play an NAHL schedule last year?

[4thlineproblems]

Curtis Frye is a big kid, 604. He fills the net well and he moves well. Neither goalie has impressive stats: .854 (Miska) and .786 (Frye).

Look at Collin Olson (.903) and Jared Rutledge (.920) from the previous season. It's embarassing when you compare the stats which reflects poorly on the goalie instructor. That's my point. These goalies deserve better or maybe they've peaked and the instructor has done all he can do. Someone's failing and the buck usually stops and points at the kid between the pipes.

I think Miska has won best goalie/player of every international tounament USA has been in when playing against same birthyear opponents. He saved 66 of 68 in the Russian tournament! He has been way ahead in performance when compared to the other goalie on the team...... I think Frye is at .782 for a save percentage.

The USHL was probably too high of a level for the team of 16 year olds.

I'm sure Miska's save percentages would be well over .9 if they played an NAHL schedule like they did last year.... And I'm pretty sure that even the two Under 18 goalies are under .900 this year.

Did Rutledge and Olson not play an NAHL schedule last year?

No the 17's played a ushl schedule last year too

http://ushl2011.stats.pointstreak.com/p ... sonid=7561

[MrBoDangles]

Curtis Frye is a big kid, 604. He fills the net well and he moves well. Neither goalie has impressive stats: .854 (Miska) and .786 (Frye).

Look at Collin Olson (.903) and Jared Rutledge (.920) from the previous season. It's embarassing when you compare the stats which reflects poorly on the goalie instructor. That's my point. These goalies deserve better or maybe they've peaked and the instructor has done all he can do. Someone's failing and the buck usually stops and points at the kid between the pipes.

Did Rutledge and Olson not play an NAHL schedule last year?

No the 17's played a ushl schedule last year too

http://ushl2011.stats.pointstreak.com/p ... sonid=7561

Any idea why their stats went down and under .900 playing on a year older team? They played only USHL teams last year?