Now is the time to force all Privates up to "AA"

[bsmguy]

More opinions:

1. Class A teams, even STA, Breck and TG, are generally not as good as the best AA teams. These three teams all have 4-6 D1 or near D1 players that can compete with anyone, but not the needed depth. For example, BSM beat TG soundly twice and Duluth Marshall once. TG beat Breck and almost beat STA twice. AA teams need three strong lines and 4-5 solid defensemen to compete. A teams generally don't have these.

2. Hermantown has remarkable depth this year and could compete at AA. However, when these 19-year olds graduate, what will they have next year (think about Holy Angels this year).

3. Careful what you wish for. If the tournament is one 16-team event containing 8 AA and 8 A schools, I assume the current "opt up" schools would return to Class A. The only difference for them would be which three teams they have to beat to get to St. Paul. I am sure they would rather play Minnetonka or Edina at the State Tournament than in the sections.

4. What this thread is really about is a way to get the Hibbings, Eveleths and other tradition-rich small town communities back into the State tournament.

The best way to do that is to do what Roseau, Little Falls and Edina do: Start developing hockey players when they are very young and provide them exceptional training all the way up. If you have 15 good players spread out over three years, you can contend for the State Class A championship (and you will also attract a transfer or two).

[Ranger101]

I don't get why everyone debates this stupid topic so much. Same crap every year. Even if they made the perfect changes to make everyone happy, all of you would still find some way to bicker. Bunch of "hogwash"! Just win and shut up! This is coming from a public school northerner too..

If only there were some way you could avoid having to read this "hogwash", then you wouldn't have to waste your time commenting on this "stupid topic". Maybe someday they will come out with a computer that allows you to click on the subjects you want to see instead of forcing you to read mindless bickering.

Just win and shut up?
Just don't read this and shut up.

I actually read the topic and read one post..yours to be exact. Why do you care so much?? Its HS hockey! It's like this is the only thing happening in your life..and if it is I feel bad for you sir..

And if all you are going to say is "then why are you on here posting?", it's called.. I am bored at work and have nothing else to do but rile up some old-timers on a HS discussion board!

[Shinbone_News]

Ugh. Same arguments every year since the Internet was born.

The idea that privates draw from "AA-sized talent pools" is stupid and simple-minded and based on the conspiracy theory that private schools have "unlimited resources" and can handpick their all-star teams via recruitment. That's simply not the way it works, any idiot can see that. Good players want to play for good teams. Good teams play good opponents and attract college and pro scouts.

In the metro, the best players self-select. If they think they get better exposure and opportunities at BSM than Edina or Tonka or Minneapolis, then they go that route -- and if their parents have any money at all, the school will take it from them. The bubble players all have to gamble, and their parents have to pay (with the vague reassurance that there'sa "No cut" policy, meaning you'll be on the team but you'll play 6th line JV). And if you think a good player would rather dominate in A than compete in AA, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that I'll sell you.

The privates skim some of the cream, for sure. Actually, the cream skims itself. But that opens up more spots all the way down the line for strong publics.

Stop PLEASE BAN ME around the issue and say what you really mean: You hate kids who choose to play for privates because they see that as their best chance to play varsity and reach higher levels. And you hate players who leave high school to play juniors or at the NTDP.

Just say it, it's OK: You think all MN hockey players should live and die at the altar of community-based high school hockey. You play where you were born, end of story.

While we're on that theme, all Gophers should come from Minnesota and all Wild players should also be from somewhere north of Rochester but south of Winnipeg.

[rainier]

More opinions:

1. Class A teams, even STA, Breck and TG, are generally not as good as the best AA teams. These three teams all have 4-6 D1 or near D1 players that can compete with anyone, but not the needed depth. For example, BSM beat TG soundly twice and Duluth Marshall once. TG beat Breck and almost beat STA twice. AA teams need three strong lines and 4-5 solid defensemen to compete. A teams generally don't have these.

I disagree, STA, Breck, and TG can absolutely compete with most AA teams, and Breck and STA each have three strong lines. BSM is a fantastic team, 95% of AA teams can't compete with them either.

2. Hermantown has remarkable depth this year and could compete at AA. However, when these 19-year olds graduate, what will they have next year (think about Holy Angels this year).

19 year-olds? What does this mean?

3. Careful what you wish for. If the tournament is one 16-team event containing 8 AA and 8 A schools, I assume the current "opt up" schools would return to Class A. The only difference for them would be which three teams they have to beat to get to St. Paul. I am sure they would rather play Minnetonka or Edina at the State Tournament than in the sections.

The two class system with separate tourneys is not going anywhere. It just isn't.

4. What this thread is really about is a way to get the Hibbings, Eveleths and other tradition-rich small town communities back into the State tournament.

No, this thread is about teams with AA sized talent pools posing as A teams. Hibbing and Virginia have been to state six times in the last nine years, and Eveleth won class A in 97 (or maybe it was 98). These hockey rich tradition schools are still doing well on average, but private schools with huge talent availability advantages have artificially raised the bar for winning A titles.

The best way to do that is to do what Roseau, Little Falls and Edina do: Start developing hockey players when they are very young and provide them exceptional training all the way up. If you have 15 good players spread out over three years, you can contend for the State Class A championship (and you will also attract a transfer or two).

Roseau is an extreme example, Edina is AA, and Little Falls has created a very nice program, but they have an A sized talent pool, so they belong in A. I like what you say about developing players from youth, but this is exactly what the privates don't do. They get players from many different AA communities that were developed and trained in those very same communities' youth programs. I'm not saying they shouldn't do this, I'm just saying it's insane to consider them class A schools.

[rainier]

Ugh. Same arguments every year since the Internet was born.

The idea that privates draw from "AA-sized talent pools" is stupid and simple-minded and based on the conspiracy theory that private schools have "unlimited resources" and can handpick their all-star teams via recruitment. That's simply not the way it works, any idiot can see that. Good players want to play for good teams. Good teams play good opponents and attract college and pro scouts.

In the metro, the best players self-select. If they think they get better exposure and opportunities at BSM than Edina or Tonka or Minneapolis, then they go that route -- and if their parents have any money at all, the school will take it from them. The bubble players all have to gamble, and their parents have to pay (with the vague reassurance that there'sa "No cut" policy, meaning you'll be on the team but you'll play 6th line JV). And if you think a good player would rather dominate in A than compete in AA, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that I'll sell you.

The privates skim some of the cream, for sure. Actually, the cream skims itself. But that opens up more spots all the way down the line for strong publics.

Stop PLEASE BAN ME around the issue and say what you really mean: You hate kids who choose to play for privates because they see that as their best chance to play varsity and reach higher levels. And you hate players who leave high school to play juniors or at the NTDP.

Just say it, it's OK: You think all MN hockey players should live and die at the altar of community-based high school hockey. You play where you were born, end of story.

While we're on that theme, all Gophers should come from Minnesota and all Wild players should also be from somewhere north of Rochester but south of Winnipeg.

Nope, that's not what I think at all, and I don't hate any players. Players can move around to other schools all they want if they follow MSHSL rules. I just think that teams who draw kids from several AA sized communities should be considered AA teams. I don't see it being unlimited resources being the problem at all, it is simply that they have WAY MORE KIDS TO SELECT FROM THAN PUBLIC A SCHOOLS. Now if you can't understand that, then apparently "any idiot" can't.

[MHGr8ness]

This mentality continues; many posters are okay with private schools in Class A as long as they aren't successful, but once they are, it's time to get out.

This is because if they aren't dominant, then they're likely not abusing the system. As soon as they start making it to the tourny every year, then it's likely they are and that needs to be compensated for by the move up to AA.

[MHGr8ness]

More opinions:

1. Class A teams, even STA, Breck and TG, are generally not as good as the best AA teams. These three teams all have 4-6 D1 or near D1 players that can compete with anyone, but not the needed depth. For example, BSM beat TG soundly twice and Duluth Marshall once. TG beat Breck and almost beat STA twice. AA teams need three strong lines and 4-5 solid defensemen to compete. A teams generally don't have these.


So if they don't go undefeated they don't belong there? They'd still be top half of the AA. They would also likely improve because I think that more players would be interested in playing there once they're AA.

[MHGr8ness]

And....?????? Your point?????

That the only ones you can debate should be moved up would be the private prep schools. Read please.

No, I can debate that many others should move up. Maybe i skrewed that part up. They shouldn't be forced up, but should move up on their own.

So you're questioning their enrollment numbers?

[thestickler07]

How do metro privates have any "talent drawing" advantages over metro publics?

Should metro publics all have to play AA as well?

Are we trying to make an outstate (A) and a metro (AA) tourney?

I think I'm good on that...

[defense]

That the only ones you can debate should be moved up would be the private prep schools. Read please.

No, I can debate that many others should move up. Maybe i skrewed that part up. They shouldn't be forced up, but should move up on their own.

So you're questioning their enrollment numbers?

Yep, that's exactly what I am questioning.




In fact sir/ma'am: You have no argument here, we are on the same page....

There is a difference in the state mandating a move, and a school deciding for itself that it is a class AA caliber program.

[defense]

How do metro privates have any "talent drawing" advantages over metro publics?

Should metro publics all have to play AA as well?

Are we trying to make an outstate (A) and a metro (AA) tourney?

I think I'm good on that...

We already have that...

[rainier]

How do metro privates have any "talent drawing" advantages over metro publics?

Should metro publics all have to play AA as well?

Are we trying to make an outstate (A) and a metro (AA) tourney?

I think I'm good on that...

The vast majority of metro publics are AA. Who are the metro publics in A? Mahtomedi, Mound-Westonka, Delano? Are they truly "metro" teams? (I honestly don't know.) If the A tourney is almost all outstate teams due to demographics, then so be it. Outstate teams will still be free to opt-up. There are 12-15 outstate teams in AA, so don't worry, the AA tourney won't be all metro.

[PuckRanger]

Also what is plain to see Rainier is that you are setting up your reason to blame someone else if your team should lose yet again this year.

Pssst.... Umm, rainer's team is not in the state tournament...

I am CERTAIN rainiers team is in the Tourney. If you had not noticed yet it is the team playing against Breck or STA Thats all this is about

No, Hibbing/Chisholm is out.

[thestickler07]

The vast majority of metro publics are AA. Who are the metro publics in A? Mahtomedi, Mound-Westonka, Delano? Are they truly "metro" teams? (I honestly don't know.) If the A tourney is almost all outstate teams due to demographics, then so be it. Outstate teams will still be free to opt-up. There are 12-15 outstate teams in AA, so don't worry, the AA tourney won't be all metro.

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/competitiveS ... tivity=410

So its not really a state tournament then huh? Should we just move the A tournament to Duluth and call it a day? Are we going to have to really piss all over the A tournament completely before people realize the system we have now isn't working?

Edit: And I'm not talking about the "vast majority" of publics that play AA, I'm talking about those that don't. The same way you seem to forget about all the unsuccessful A privates while focusing on the ones that do well. Instead of trying to pick winners and losers like you have been doing put your brilliant hockey mind to making a system that gives everyone a shot at a "untainted" title. Otherwise you're just making high school hockey in Minnesota worse.

[Goldy23]

How about one 16 team State toruney coming from 16 sections! Fixes everything!

[rainier]

The vast majority of metro publics are AA. Who are the metro publics in A? Mahtomedi, Mound-Westonka, Delano? Are they truly "metro" teams? (I honestly don't know.) If the A tourney is almost all outstate teams due to demographics, then so be it. Outstate teams will still be free to opt-up. There are 12-15 outstate teams in AA, so don't worry, the AA tourney won't be all metro.

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/competitiveS ... tivity=410

So its not really a state tournament then huh? Should we just move the A tournament to Duluth and call it a day? Are we going to have to really piss all over the A tournament completely before people realize the system we have now isn't working?

Edit: And I'm not talking about the "vast majority" of publics that play AA, I'm talking about those that don't. The same way you seem to forget about all the unsuccessful A privates while focusing on the ones that do well. Instead of trying to pick winners and losers like you have been doing put your brilliant hockey mind to making a system that gives everyone a shot at a "untainted" title. Otherwise you're just making high school hockey in Minnesota worse.

I don't call getting AA teams out of the A tournament "pissing" on it. Once again, here is my idea:

1. All private schools are placed in AA.

2. All private schools can petition to be in A, and then the A coaches will vote on if the feel that team is suited for A. This way the unsuccessful A privates will be allowed to stay in A, helping them to have success and build a better program. And the privates that are clearly suited to AA will stay in AA. As I said before, I think this is a totally reasonable "price" the privates would have to pay given that they have the ability to circumvent traditional enrollment/talent ratios.

What do you think of this idea?

[MHGr8ness]

The vast majority of metro publics are AA. Who are the metro publics in A? Mahtomedi, Mound-Westonka, Delano? Are they truly "metro" teams? (I honestly don't know.) If the A tourney is almost all outstate teams due to demographics, then so be it. Outstate teams will still be free to opt-up. There are 12-15 outstate teams in AA, so don't worry, the AA tourney won't be all metro.

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/competitiveS ... tivity=410

So its not really a state tournament then huh? Should we just move the A tournament to Duluth and call it a day? Are we going to have to really piss all over the A tournament completely before people realize the system we have now isn't working?

Edit: And I'm not talking about the "vast majority" of publics that play AA, I'm talking about those that don't. The same way you seem to forget about all the unsuccessful A privates while focusing on the ones that do well. Instead of trying to pick winners and losers like you have been doing put your brilliant hockey mind to making a system that gives everyone a shot at a "untainted" title. Otherwise you're just making high school hockey in Minnesota worse.

I don't call getting AA teams out of the A tournament "pissing" on it. Once again, here is my idea:

1. All private schools are placed in AA.

2. All private schools can petition to be in A, and then the A coaches will vote on if the feel that team is suited for A. This way the unsuccessful A privates will be allowed to stay in A, helping them to have success and build a better program. And the privates that are clearly suited to AA will stay in AA. As I said before, I think this is a totally reasonable "price" the privates would have to pay given that they have the ability to circumvent traditional enrollment/talent ratios.

What do you think of this idea?

LOVE it. I would also add that there shouldn't be any opt ups.

[NoExcuses]

How about one 16 team State toruney coming from 16 sections! Fixes everything!

One class 8 team tournament. No more complaining on how weak a particular section may be or who should be A or AA. Strap it on and play and if you're good enough, you'll make to the X.

[thestickler07]

I don't call getting AA teams out of the A tournament "pissing" on it. Once again, here is my idea:

1. All private schools are placed in AA.

2. All private schools can petition to be in A, and then the A coaches will vote on if the feel that team is suited for A. This way the unsuccessful A privates will be allowed to stay in A, helping them to have success and build a better program. And the privates that are clearly suited to AA will stay in AA. As I said before, I think this is a totally reasonable "price" the privates would have to pay given that they have the ability to circumvent traditional enrollment/talent ratios.

What do you think of this idea?

I think you're taking a using a hatchet when you should be using a scalpel, mainly for the sake of not looking like a sore loser. No one in their right mind would think that Minnehaha/Providence/etc belong in AA, you're just painting with a broad brush against all privates now so you don't look like you're singling people out. I called you out on it, and you're "fix" was putting the competitive fates of high school kids everywhere into the hands of coaches who may NEVER play them in a single game...

Laughable in a word.

Also since I see you dodged the question last time about the differences between the ability to "draw talent" in metro publics vs privates, I'll rephrase:

What can STA/AHA/HM do to get kids that Edina can't? EP? Mahtomedi? Anything?

And finally yes, I think if you water down A to the point where its only farm schools and people north of 694 its not a "state" tournament anymore. Its stifling competition so you have a better shot.

[rainier]

LOVE it. I would also add that there shouldn't be any opt ups.

I think you have to allow opt ups. If a team wants to test themselves against the big schools, by all means let them.

[observer]

ranier,

In a word, outstanding.

A very simple solution.

[rainier]

I don't call getting AA teams out of the A tournament "pissing" on it. Once again, here is my idea:

1. All private schools are placed in AA.

2. All private schools can petition to be in A, and then the A coaches will vote on if the feel that team is suited for A. This way the unsuccessful A privates will be allowed to stay in A, helping them to have success and build a better program. And the privates that are clearly suited to AA will stay in AA. As I said before, I think this is a totally reasonable "price" the privates would have to pay given that they have the ability to circumvent traditional enrollment/talent ratios.

What do you think of this idea?

I think you're taking a using a hatchet when you should be using a scalpel, mainly for the sake of not looking like a sore loser. No one in their right mind would think that Minnehaha/Providence/etc belong in AA, you're just painting with a broad brush against all privates now so you don't look like you're singling people out. I called you out on it, and you're "fix" was putting the competitive fates of high school kids everywhere into the hands of coaches who may NEVER play them in a single game...

Try reading my post again. The smaller privates would be allowed to stay in A by coaches voting. I don't think a coach needs to play a team to know if they belong in A or AA. It wouldn't be a perfect system, but it would be better than what we have now.

Laughable in a word.

Keep on belittling me all you want, but it doesn't help you make any of your points, in fact, it just detracts from any valid arguments you may have.

Also since I see you dodged the question last time about the differences between the ability to "draw talent" in metro publics vs privates, I'll rephrase:

What can STA/AHA/HM do to get kids that Edina can't? EP? Mahtomedi? Anything?

Forget about Edina and EP, this is about A teams. Mahtomedi has a school district with actual geographical boundaries, the privates do not. It would be much more difficult for Mahtomedi to load up on talent from surrounding communities than it is for privates.



And finally yes, I think if you water down A to the point where its only farm schools and people north of 694 its not a "state" tournament anymore. Its stifling competition so you have a better shot.

There are AA private schools playing in A right now, that is what is stifling competition. Let's see, you would have teams from NW, NE, SW, SE, and central MN, plus a few teams from the metro. That my friend is the very definition of a state tournament. You can call it whatever you'd like though.

[thestickler07]

Try reading my post again. The smaller privates would be allowed to stay in A by coaches voting. I don't think a coach needs to play a team to know if they belong in A or AA. It wouldn't be a perfect system, but it would be better than what we have now.

I read it and completely understood it believe me. I'm apologize if I made you feel bad or belittled your opinion. I just don't think that delegating class assignments to coaches, and not even "coaches" to be honest its a subset of coaches of high school hockey teams, that play for publicly funded schools only, that don't have enrollments over ~1200 or whatever the exact cutoff is, that aren't in the metro area. I would take a red pen to a map of Minnesota to show you where they are but I got a feeling Hibbing would be one of them. You railed against bias earlier in my hypothetical state tournament change and then you propose a system where personal biases of a small group of coaches would determine where hundreds of kids that they likely will never meet, or compete against plays hockey...

Like I said, laughable.

Forget about Edina and EP, this is about A teams. Mahtomedi has a school district with actual geographical boundaries, the privates do not. It would be much more difficult for Mahtomedi to load up on talent from surrounding communities than it is for privates.

Ok, I tried twice to narrow down this question but again you're just dodging it because you don't want to answer it. Just look at what I bolded in the above quote and tell me the answer to one question...

Why is it "more difficult" for Mahtomedi to get kids to enroll at their school through open enrollment than it is for STA to do the same?

[icehornet]

If trying to stick to the main point of the thread by making reasoned, focused arguments is going nuts, then yes, I am flying over the cuckoo's nest for sure.

A couple of points:
1. I am a Hibbing fan, not a Hermantown fan. Hermantown is the epitome of what Class A hockey is about, and I admire them greatly for it.

2. I am not addressing any one class tournament or super section arguments because they are futile. The two class split is irreversible; the MSHSL is NOT going to give up the extra money it brings in. Putting private schools in AA could very well happen though, as every year the private dominance continues, the voices of opposition get louder.

3. HSHW, you keep bringing up that the public schools should do more to draw kids in and that private schools are "providing a place for students to attend when, in their opinion, their money isn't being well spent at their local school. " Fine, I see what you are saying, private schools do offer great facilities, teachers, curriculum, etc. but this is totally irrelevant to the fact that they still have AA sized talent pools. Other STA and Breck fans acknowledge that this is indeed a fact, so should you. It doesn't matter why kids go to private schools, what matters is that when they get their talent from a huge area, they are a AA school, period.

4. To those who say the public class A schools are whining because they are losing, you are right, but only half right. We are whining because our A teams are losing to AA schools. 1% of class A fans complain when a Warroad or Hermantown win; 99% of A fans complain when STA or Breck win. The AA equivalent to this is if SSM were allowed to play in HS. They would win tons of titles and dominate, and boy, would you hear the whining then. But you know what? That whining would be totally justified, just as it is for teams like STA and Breck sandbagging in A.

5. Who is really going nuts are the private school alums on this message board who can't stand the fact that their titles are tainted and not respected by anyone other than their fellow classmates. They want the recognition and glory that comes with winning state titles, but they never get it because anyone can see what a farce it is that they are in class A. That is why they bring up completely unrelated and irrelevant arguments to deflect the conversation away from the painful truth that their programs only win those titles because they have 10 times more kids to chose from than public A schools. The truth has them painted into a corner, and because they can't face this embarrassing reality, they lash out in desperation to make themselves feel better. Other private schools that put integrity before winning realized this truth, so they opted up, which kills these A private school fans even more.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me why it is acceptable and ethical for teams with AA sized talent pools to be playing in and dominating A, and until I hear a real answer I will continue to bring this fact up.

VERY well said.

[warriors41]

LOVE it. I would also add that there shouldn't be any opt ups.

I think you have to allow opt ups. If a team wants to test themselves against the big schools, by all means let them.

I can respect that thought, but it has been brought up by myself and a few other posters that if you don't allow opt ups than you wouldn't see the success and concern that surround privates. No one really cares or whines about who gets 2nd place after all. If the small town programs are good enough, then the big schools will agree to play them in the regular season. You do see this in the girls high school hockey season. I agree that is adds to the drama of the state tourny, seeing a team like Roseau compete for the state title. When I jump off the band wagon is once all these top level A teams leave for AA and we are left with a tournament that is dominated by privates or so watered down that is called the JV tournament by some. I would rather see to great tournaments being played.