Now is the time to force all Privates up to "AA"

rainier · Post by **rainier** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:44 pm

Here is my idea:

1. All private schools in the metro area and in any city over 25,000 would automatically be placed in AA because they draw from AA-sized talent pools.

2. To deal with the very small private schools in the large communities, any private school would be allowed to petition to be in A, and then the A coaches would vote on if they feel the team is suited to be in A.

Thoughts? Please post why this would/wouldn't work.

Just Checking · Post by **Just Checking** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:50 pm

Clearly Stick has more insight into why STA has not opted up. What about Breck, anyone? All privates opting up would be silly. But those who have had success would make sense. TG did so this year in football for that very reason.
If all privates opted up what would the A tourney look like? Herm, TRF, NU, Mahtomedi, Delano ? Albert Lee? Who did Lourdes play to get in? I guess that answers my own question? Bad.

Again to get back on topic not all should opt up. Maybe just the winning programs say 3 titles in 10 years. Or if they go back to back this year!!!:P

It is hard to spell well on a phone even though it is only 4 letters.

Goldy23 · Post by **Goldy23** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:57 pm

We can argue about this forever but the only way to fix this is to move back to a one class tournament. As for the argument of taking away the opportunity for so many players to get the chance to play for for it all in St. Paul in March, I'd say just change it to a 16 team field and then the exact same number of teams and players get the opportunity to play, but this way we would get the best sixteen teams instead of having so many of the best teams lose out on the chance to play (this year Minnetonka, EP, etc..)

As a Breck supporter, I have said for years that they should move up and play in the AA tournament as should STA.

Just Checking · Post by **Just Checking** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:00 pm

Why would EP make a 16 team field they lost in the first round to a 7 seed?

Northhcky · Post by **Northhcky** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:01 pm

This is a arguement that that comes up year after year and isn't going to change and is never going to go away Aw heck why don't we just let the "select" teams like the Blades, and the Lake Superior Stars, Northern Wings and whoever else get into the Peewee and Bantam state tourneys too? I see no difference between that and the privates playing A. Then the small town teams and fans will be used to this situation by the time they are HS age.

rainier · Post by **rainier** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:10 pm

If privates were moved to AA (see my idea a few posts earlier), the field would be (if next highest seed made it):

1: New Prague
2: Delano
3: New Ulm
4: Mahtomedi
5: Hermantown
6: Little Falls
7: Hibbing
8: TRF

Likely seeding: (using the "random" draw)
1. Herm vs New Ulm
2. TRF vs New Prague
3. Mahtomedi vs Little Fallls
4. Delano vs Hibbing

Other than Herm/New Ulm, which of these games wouldn't be competitive? Sure, Hermantown would be a heavy, heavy favorite and might go on a 3 year title run, but so what? They earned it with a true A team, just like Warroad has done several times in A. (Warroad is now scuffling by the way.) I recall Jefferson winning 3 in a row in the early 90's, which was actually pretty cool. And 13th rated Hibbing took Hermantown right to the last minute in the tourney last year, so an upset is feasible.

The point here is, all the teams in this scenario come from true A situations and any domination would be from either a great class coming through occasionally or else from systemic excellence, and NOT from drawing from a much larger pool of talent.

Goldy23 · Post by **Goldy23** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:20 pm

Just Checking wrote:Why would EP make a 16 team field they lost in the first round to a 7 seed?

OK, maybe EP was a bad example, but if there were 16 sections you'd have a lot better chance of seeing the 16 "best" teams playing in March instead of creating a second tier tourney. Why should a weak New Ulm team get the chance to play 3 years in a row, when a Minnetonka (this year), Wayzata and BSM (last year) have to beat each other up and end up sitting out?

You would still see some of the smaller programs get in every year and who know's mayber even win it. With Warroad, Hermantown, and Little Falls coming to mind the past couple of years in addition to the Breck's, Blake's and STA's. Maybe New Ulm could pull off a section upset and sneak in as well!

It would make for a MUCH BETTER TOURNEY leaving the only thing to argue about being should the privates be allowed at all?!?!

14hockey · Post by **14hockey** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:25 pm

I do believe this thread is getting out of hand... but i'll put forth my two cents anyways. Here is my solution: don't allow opting up. If all private teams and teams like East, Grand Rapids, Roseau and some others who I all believe are below the enrollment line played in A then we really wouldnt have anything more to complain about. Privates would play better competition and A may actually be even more Furthermore, I dont think a private school has won AA since Cretin in 07 maybe. Finally, let the winners of A and AA play against each other so there really is a true champion. I'm not arguing for private schools like Breck and STA having worse seasons I only wish they would play competition that better fits their abilities.

Goldy23 · Post by **Goldy23** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:29 pm

rainier wrote:If privates were moved to AA (see my idea a few posts earlier), the field would be (if next highest seed made it):

1: New Prague
2: Delano
3: New Ulm
4: Mahtomedi
5: Hermantown
6: Little Falls
7: Hibbing
8: TRF

Likely seeding: (using the "random" draw)
1. Herm vs New Ulm
2. TRF vs New Prague
3. Mahtomedi vs Little Fallls
4. Delano vs Hibbing

Other than Herm/New Ulm, which of these games wouldn't be competitive? Sure, Hermantown would be a heavy, heavy favorite and might go on a 3 year title run, but so what? They earned it with a true A team, just like Warroad has done several times in A. (Warroad is now scuffling by the way.) I recall Jefferson winning 3 in a row in the early 90's, which was actually pretty cool. And 13th rated Hibbing took Hermantown right to the last minute in the tourney last year, so an upset is feasible.

The point here is, all the teams in this scenario come from true A situations and any domination would be from either a great class coming through occasionally or else from systemic excellence, and NOT from drawing from a much larger pool of talent.

Sorry Rainier, but all I can say to this is.....YUCK what a snoozefest. I'd much rather see Wayzata, EP, Minnetonka, etc.... play against the other highest performing teams.

Or on the other hand a match up of Austin (4-22) vs Litchfield (5-21) would probably be pretty even as well!!! Oh yeah, that's what the regular season is for!

Goldy23 · Post by **Goldy23** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:32 pm

14hockey wrote:I do believe this thread is getting out of hand... but i'll put forth my two cents anyways. Here is my solution: don't allow opting up. If all private teams and teams like East, Grand Rapids, Roseau and some others who I all believe are below the enrollment line played in A then we really wouldnt have anything more to complain about. Privates would play better competition and A may actually be even more Furthermore, I dont think a private school has won AA since Cretin in 07 maybe. Finally, let the winners of A and AA play against each other so there really is a true champion. I'm not arguing for private schools like Breck and STA having worse seasons I only wish they would play competition that better fits their abilities.

While this is a potential solution the AA schools whould NEVER agree to this as they have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

One 16 team Tourney is the answer!

rainier · Post by **rainier** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:33 pm

Goldy23 wrote:
rainier wrote:If privates were moved to AA (see my idea a few posts earlier), the field would be (if next highest seed made it):

1: New Prague
2: Delano
3: New Ulm
4: Mahtomedi
5: Hermantown
6: Little Falls
7: Hibbing
8: TRF

Likely seeding: (using the "random" draw)
1. Herm vs New Ulm
2. TRF vs New Prague
3. Mahtomedi vs Little Fallls
4. Delano vs Hibbing

Other than Herm/New Ulm, which of these games wouldn't be competitive? Sure, Hermantown would be a heavy, heavy favorite and might go on a 3 year title run, but so what? They earned it with a true A team, just like Warroad has done several times in A. (Warroad is now scuffling by the way.) I recall Jefferson winning 3 in a row in the early 90's, which was actually pretty cool. And 13th rated Hibbing took Hermantown right to the last minute in the tourney last year, so an upset is feasible.

The point here is, all the teams in this scenario come from true A situations and any domination would be from either a great class coming through occasionally or else from systemic excellence, and NOT from drawing from a much larger pool of talent.
Sorry Rainier, but all I can say to this is.....YUCK what a snoozefest. I'd much rather see Wayzata, EP, Minnetonka, etc.... play against the other highest performing teams.

Or on the other hand a match up of Austin (4-22) vs Litchfield (5-21) would probably be pretty even as well!!! Oh yeah, that's what the regular season is for!

I realize you wouldn't enjoy it; you're an AA fan, it's not meant to make you happy. As I mentioned before, just watch the AA tournament, you get the same amount of games as when it was one class. Just pretend the A tourney didn't exist and you would be happy and those of us who like A hockey would also be happy.

Goldy23 · Post by **Goldy23** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:56 pm

rainier wrote:
Goldy23 wrote:
rainier wrote:If privates were moved to AA (see my idea a few posts earlier), the field would be (if next highest seed made it):

1: New Prague
2: Delano
3: New Ulm
4: Mahtomedi
5: Hermantown
6: Little Falls
7: Hibbing
8: TRF

Likely seeding: (using the "random" draw)
1. Herm vs New Ulm
2. TRF vs New Prague
3. Mahtomedi vs Little Fallls
4. Delano vs Hibbing

Other than Herm/New Ulm, which of these games wouldn't be competitive? Sure, Hermantown would be a heavy, heavy favorite and might go on a 3 year title run, but so what? They earned it with a true A team, just like Warroad has done several times in A. (Warroad is now scuffling by the way.) I recall Jefferson winning 3 in a row in the early 90's, which was actually pretty cool. And 13th rated Hibbing took Hermantown right to the last minute in the tourney last year, so an upset is feasible.

The point here is, all the teams in this scenario come from true A situations and any domination would be from either a great class coming through occasionally or else from systemic excellence, and NOT from drawing from a much larger pool of talent.
Sorry Rainier, but all I can say to this is.....YUCK what a snoozefest. I'd much rather see Wayzata, EP, Minnetonka, etc.... play against the other highest performing teams.

Or on the other hand a match up of Austin (4-22) vs Litchfield (5-21) would probably be pretty even as well!!! Oh yeah, that's what the regular season is for!
I realize you wouldn't enjoy it; you're an AA fan, it's not meant to make you happy. As I mentioned before, just watch the AA tournament, you get the same amount of games as when it was one class. Just pretend the A tourney didn't exist and you would be happy and those of us who like A hockey would also be happy.

Nope. I'm not a AA fan, I'm a High School hockey fan. Right now we have 16 teams playing in two seperate tourney's. The problem I have is with the way its currently structured. It is designed NOT to have the best and most deserving teams playing in the same season ending tournament. It's designed to eliminate some of the very best teams while showcasing much weaker and (less deserving) teams year in and year out.

rainier · Post by **rainier** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:02 pm

Goldy23 wrote:
rainier wrote:
Goldy23 wrote: Sorry Rainier, but all I can say to this is.....YUCK what a snoozefest. I'd much rather see Wayzata, EP, Minnetonka, etc.... play against the other highest performing teams.

Or on the other hand a match up of Austin (4-22) vs Litchfield (5-21) would probably be pretty even as well!!! Oh yeah, that's what the regular season is for!
I realize you wouldn't enjoy it; you're an AA fan, it's not meant to make you happy. As I mentioned before, just watch the AA tournament, you get the same amount of games as when it was one class. Just pretend the A tourney didn't exist and you would be happy and those of us who like A hockey would also be happy.
Nope. I'm not a AA fan, I'm a High School hockey fan. Right now we have 16 teams playing in two seperate tourney's. The problem I have is with the way its currently structured. It is designed NOT to have the best and most deserving teams playing in the same season ending tournament. It's designed to eliminate some of the very best teams while showcasing much weaker and (less deserving) teams year in and year out.

Watch the AA section semis and finals (most are now broadcast) and don't watch the A tournament, that way you will see the best 32 teams fighting it out in a season ending tournament. You get what you want and so do people that enjoy A hockey. The A tournament does not affect the AA tourney in any way, so why do you care?

thestickler07 · Post by **thestickler07** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:44 pm

Goldy23 wrote: Nope. I'm not a AA fan, I'm a High School hockey fan. Right now we have 16 teams playing in two seperate tourney's. The problem I have is with the way its currently structured. It is designed NOT to have the best and most deserving teams playing in the same season ending tournament. It's designed to eliminate some of the very best teams while showcasing much weaker and (less deserving) teams year in and year out.

Goldy you hit the nail on the head with this part. The MSHSL has made it known that they have no interest putting the best 8 teams per class in the state tournament, they have admitted that geographic diversity of teams competing is the one of the top goals for them.

With this in mind why even continue the charade? The MSHSL give us the tired line of "small/big school champion" or uses A-6A instead of calling it A,B,C etc for precisely the same reasons as stated before, they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. How would schools feel winning the Class "B" state championship? Exactly. So call the bigger classes multi-As and there is no problem, everyone's a winner! (except when privates win then its JV)

So our problem is twofold: the level of competition isn't remotely close to balanced between the two classes, and public perception has evolved to the point where people think of A as a sideshow instead of a great tourney in its own right.

I would love to see the following to remedy this:
1. No opt ups. Its been thrown around time and again but you can't deny the underlying points it makes. If you believe that similar enrollment size more or less will result in similar levels of competition as the MSHSL as reiterated time and again, then we need to abolish opt-ups. Otherwise we are a few strategic class moves away from a Tiered tournament, which from history would prove to be a failure waiting to happen. If you don't think that the MSHSL is right in their methodology for classification then don't respond in this thread to it, just take all your keystrokes and put them in an email to them.

2. Make sections/conferences the same. While I do like the fact that we have different conferences and sections for the most part it can be problematic for us. Seeding becomes a non-issue because standings eliminate opinions from the matter. This would be a very large and in some cases difficult change to make but Minnesota sports would in all likelihood benefit from it. No controversy over who gets placed where or if someone got the short end of the stick in a particular two year period. Also rivalries would continue to be developed with schools similar to your size and area, never a bad thing. Since the MSHSL has ultimate veto power in removal and placement in conferences and sections it seems redundant to have different administrative areas for both. Again, I understand this is one of the biggest bureaucratic hurdles but it would create a lot more calm then headache eventually if it was allowed to play out.

3. Make the tournament a 16 team showcase with half coming from the "larger" schools and half coming from the "smaller" schools. Section tourneys would be essentially akin to NCAA D1 postseason basketball tournaments with the winner getting a birth to state. Then have the small school side play the winner of the big school side according to geographic location in the first round, this is what the field would hypothetically look like: (Yes I realize opt ups are in there)

Supersection 1: Lourdes vs. Lakeville South
Supersection 2: Breck vs. Edina
Supersection 3: New Ulm vs Eagan
Supersection 4: St. Thomas vs Hill-Murray
Supersection 5: Hermantown vs Maple Grove
Supersection 6: Little Falls vs Benilde St. Margarets
Supersection 7: Duluth Marshall vs Duluth East
Supersection 8: Thief River Falls vs Moorhead

Can you tell me this isn't (more) fair? That this wouldn't be better for the game? Think of the David and Goliath stories, something that has been lost in MN hockey for too long, and think of the atmosphere. You think St. Paul is fun now in March? And finally the penultimate problem of all sport would be solved, we would definitely know who the best each year was, as it would be settled on the ice where it belongs instead of on the message boards.

artifactually153 · Post by **artifactually153** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:32 pm

If we eliminate opting up, would there even be any northern schools that would qualify? Or would AA be a metro tourney?

ShootNScore88 · Post by **ShootNScore88** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:39 pm

thestickler07 plan is a great one. Especially the idea of having the class A section winner play the AA winner to get to the tourney. Also, I have thought for years to get rid of the current conferences and have the sections be the new conferences.

sachishi4 · Post by **sachishi4** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:41 pm

using your super sections, IMO not a single class A team would win. So what would change?

rbkhockey97 · Post by **rbkhockey97** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:43 pm

If you make St. Thomas move up and Breck move up, all you'll have is the same problem with different teams. Blake would play Totino every damn year in the finals. JUST KEEP IT THE WAY IT IS! - Who minds a Hermantown versus Breck or STA state final? I dont.

[size=18][/size]

Nostalgic Nerd · Post by **Nostalgic Nerd** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:09 am

thestickler 07:

Can you tell me this isn't (more) fair? That this wouldn't be better for the game? Think of the David and Goliath stories, something that has been lost in MN hockey for too long, and think of the atmosphere. You think St. Paul is fun now in March? And finally the penultimate problem of all sport would be solved, we would definitely know who the best each year was, as it would be settled on the ice where it belongs instead of on the message boards.

Not really. The bias is it intentionally is trying to create a David vs. Goliath matchup, which it has no business doing. I've always interpreted the Sections as a matter of geographic area that is convenienced by shorter commute times. Like all high school sports the objective is to get them going and done with so the next sport can carry on. You also have to consider travel time and any interruptions due to weather, the financial costs of gas and so forth. Unless you want to shorten the regular season to expand the post season, etc.

MHGr8ness · Post by **MHGr8ness** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:49 am

rbkhockey97 wrote:If you make St. Thomas move up and Breck move up, all you'll have is the same problem with different teams. Blake would play Totino every damn year in the finals. JUST KEEP IT THE WAY IT IS! - Who minds a Hermantown versus Breck or STA state final? I dont.

Obviously quite a few people.

MHGr8ness · Post by **MHGr8ness** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:51 am

thestickler07 wrote:
Goldy23 wrote: Nope. I'm not a AA fan, I'm a High School hockey fan. Right now we have 16 teams playing in two seperate tourney's. The problem I have is with the way its currently structured. It is designed NOT to have the best and most deserving teams playing in the same season ending tournament. It's designed to eliminate some of the very best teams while showcasing much weaker and (less deserving) teams year in and year out.
Goldy you hit the nail on the head with this part. The MSHSL has made it known that they have no interest putting the best 8 teams per class in the state tournament, they have admitted that geographic diversity of teams competing is the one of the top goals for them.

With this in mind why even continue the charade? The MSHSL give us the tired line of "small/big school champion" or uses A-6A instead of calling it A,B,C etc for precisely the same reasons as stated before, they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. How would schools feel winning the Class "B" state championship? Exactly. So call the bigger classes multi-As and there is no problem, everyone's a winner! (except when privates win then its JV)

So our problem is twofold: the level of competition isn't remotely close to balanced between the two classes, and public perception has evolved to the point where people think of A as a sideshow instead of a great tourney in its own right.

I would love to see the following to remedy this:
1. No opt ups. Its been thrown around time and again but you can't deny the underlying points it makes. If you believe that similar enrollment size more or less will result in similar levels of competition as the MSHSL as reiterated time and again, then we need to abolish opt-ups. Otherwise we are a few strategic class moves away from a Tiered tournament, which from history would prove to be a failure waiting to happen. If you don't think that the MSHSL is right in their methodology for classification then don't respond in this thread to it, just take all your keystrokes and put them in an email to them.

2. Make sections/conferences the same. While I do like the fact that we have different conferences and sections for the most part it can be problematic for us. Seeding becomes a non-issue because standings eliminate opinions from the matter. This would be a very large and in some cases difficult change to make but Minnesota sports would in all likelihood benefit from it. No controversy over who gets placed where or if someone got the short end of the stick in a particular two year period. Also rivalries would continue to be developed with schools similar to your size and area, never a bad thing. Since the MSHSL has ultimate veto power in removal and placement in conferences and sections it seems redundant to have different administrative areas for both. Again, I understand this is one of the biggest bureaucratic hurdles but it would create a lot more calm then headache eventually if it was allowed to play out.

3. Make the tournament a 16 team showcase with half coming from the "larger" schools and half coming from the "smaller" schools. Section tourneys would be essentially akin to NCAA D1 postseason basketball tournaments with the winner getting a birth to state. Then have the small school side play the winner of the big school side according to geographic location in the first round, this is what the field would hypothetically look like: (Yes I realize opt ups are in there)

Supersection 1: Lourdes vs. Lakeville South
Supersection 2: Breck vs. Edina
Supersection 3: New Ulm vs Eagan
Supersection 4: St. Thomas vs Hill-Murray
Supersection 5: Hermantown vs Maple Grove
Supersection 6: Little Falls vs Benilde St. Margarets
Supersection 7: Duluth Marshall vs Duluth East
Supersection 8: Thief River Falls vs Moorhead

Can you tell me this isn't (more) fair? That this wouldn't be better for the game? Think of the David and Goliath stories, something that has been lost in MN hockey for too long, and think of the atmosphere. You think St. Paul is fun now in March? And finally the penultimate problem of all sport would be solved, we would definitely know who the best each year was, as it would be settled on the ice where it belongs instead of on the message boards.

New Ulm vs. anyone at state isn't David vs. Goliath?

thestickler07 · Post by **thestickler07** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:00 am

Nostalgic Nerd wrote:Not really. The bias is it intentionally is trying to create a David vs. Goliath matchup, which it has no business doing.

The bias in the system now is too get 8 teams from "geographically diverse" areas in the state tournament each year. You tell me which is better, the potential for a Hoosiers' style run for a small town team against the big boys or New Ulm vs. a random #1 seed?

Nostalgic Nerd wrote:Like all high school sports the objective is to get them going and done with so the next sport can carry on.

I can unequivocally say I do not feel this way about high school hockey. I guess if you do more power to ya...

Nostalgic Nerd wrote:You also have to consider travel time and any interruptions due to weather, the financial costs of gas and so forth. Unless you want to shorten the regular season to expand the post season, etc.

I didn't do a cost/benefit analysis man damn. I will say I'm in favor of 20 minute periods for games, more ice time for the players. And truthfully if conferences/sections were the same you wouldn't have a lot of the redundant "non-conference" games that are played every year solely for section seeding purposes. Teams could then go and schedule better non-conference opponents with the open dates, or you could start the season later if you wanted.

thestickler07 · Post by **thestickler07** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:02 am

MHGr8ness wrote:New Ulm vs. anyone at state isn't David vs. Goliath?

Meh, I'd argue that David at least had one good shot in his last contest.

MHGr8ness · Post by **MHGr8ness** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:19 am

HShockeywatcher wrote:
thestickler07 wrote: Maybe if you focused on more on your own programs than ours you'd have more success.
I've been saying this for a while, but it's not the concern for some reason.

Look around the state [and country] at the number of private schools. New schools are starting more and more now as well as, along with that, new hockey programs. It is a serious societal issue that students leave at the rates they do, for any reason. If our public schools can't be where students go for academic and athletic resources, that is not a good sign.

There is a problem around the state [and country] and instead of discussing ways to help it, people simply point fingers. It isn't seen by many of the good hockey programs, because on a whole, those issues aren't rampant at schools that are good at hockey.
There was a post from a Lakeville South follower thinking about how their hockey program would be had many not left and attended St Thomas. I can count on one hand the number of comments blaming that program for the kids leaving, instead of pointing fingers at the school they left to.

The majority of people on this board, and in general in state, are from public schools. Most are very ignorant about private schools, how they operate and how people get there and make claims as if they know everything. Many also seem to possibly be ignorant about the state of public schools in general.

Oh well, life goes on. Hopefully any changes made are good for the overall state of hockey.

Here's why it's not the concern.... People think privates have unfair advantages or are cheating (whether they are or aren't isn't my point, just that people think that)

When you see people cheating in a board game you don't say how can I improve my chances of winning. You call out the cheater.

MHGr8ness · Post by **MHGr8ness** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:20 am

thestickler07 wrote:
MHGr8ness wrote:New Ulm vs. anyone at state isn't David vs. Goliath?
Meh, I'd argue that David at least had one good shot in his last contest.

I think 99 percent of the people who knew anything about MN hs hockey would be shocked to see New Ulm beat a top 4 seed.