YHH Weekly Rankings (2-27-12)

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:23 pm

After probably the biggest week of youth hockey the rankings are out. Huge District battles, end of year district tourneys in Squirts, Fargo Tourney, etc...the rankings definitely favor teams that are playing well right now.

http://youthhockeyhub.com/youth-hockeyrankings/

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:39 pm

Guess what I have a ? about B1's Tonka is in the top ten and they are done for the year. Will your rankings have teams that are not regions or state?

jpiehl · Post by **jpiehl** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:55 pm

Wow, no love for Brainerd in the Squirt B. Last Minnesota team alive in B at Fargo, beat Princeton in their home tournament.

snyper12 · Post by **snyper12** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:56 pm

HOCKEYDRIVER wrote:Guess what I have a ? about B1's Tonka is in the top ten and they are done for the year. Will your rankings have teams that are not regions or state?

Why not? Are you saying you have to make regions to be top ten?

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:22 pm

Yes, Then shouldn't NSP still be in? Then OMG Black.
So if the #1 loses they are still #1 or still in the top 8.
I hard a hard time with keeping a team in the rankings if they are done.
Districts,Regions,State
I asked about Denfeld before. Now they make state they are in the top 8.

snyper12 · Post by **snyper12** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:27 pm

HOCKEYDRIVER wrote:Yes, Then shouldn't NSP still be in? Then OMG Black.
So if the #1 loses they are still #1 or still in the top 8.
I hard a hard time with keeping a team in the rankings if they are done.
Districts,Regions,State
I asked about Denfeld before. Now they make state they are in the top 8.

I don't follow this group, just philosophically don't have a problem with the idea a team could still be a top 10 team despite not making regions, especially a team from d6.

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:33 pm

Your right, What in the wild world of sports was I thinking.
They better put EP back in also

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:59 am

HD (et al.): Great question. Have received a ton of the same questions.

Our formula allows for teams to stay in top 10 despite being ousted in Districts. It is a body of work formula rewarding teams with recent wins and hurting teams with recent losses...all teams ousted from districts did go down quite a bit in all of our rankings.

Tonka and NSP are classic droppers in the poll, but their entire season (50 games should be taken into account for a proper ranking, not 3 games at the end).

We experimented with the formula the other way (more recency) and it was way off. The complaints and legitimacy of the rankings would have been a credibility killer.

I'd love to publish the 3 different rankings someday: Public poll, Strength of Schedule rankings, and recency rankings (Right Now it's set at 20 Public, 40 strength, 40 recency). Well informed people like you would love it. Tonka's SOS is #3, NSP is not top ten (the pollsters in Ban B don't like A teams playing in B, so they get hurt there too).

Love reading your posts and hearing your opinions.

ahastars03 · Post by **ahastars03** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:34 am

I think if the playoffs were 1 seed vs 64 and 2 vs 63 and so on that you could make the case that if you lose you don't deserve to be in the top 10. The way the playoffs are now, clearly some districts are better then others and that is why some teams don't make it out but are still deserving of top 10 rankings for their season.

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:28 am

Thanks TS,
Would they still be in the top ten as a final ranking?
I THINK don't what to talk for others. If a program has more then 1 team at a age group,
they should battle it out for a playoff spot. I like winning as the next guy. But is this about winning or for the kids. Should one group have 2 or 3 teams at state? or give 8 different teams a spot. Look at the 4 regions, 1 is full of top teams by rankings. The other 3 have 1 to 2 teams. So if 1 of those unranked team stick a top 5. Go to state, finish 3rd or 4th should they keep that spot. And the #1 at state loses. were will they finish? Can a team from a so called weaker district go to regions won out get to state win then lose out. what place do they get?

snyper12 · Post by **snyper12** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:38 am

HOCKEYDRIVER wrote:Thanks TS,
Would they still be in the top ten as a final ranking?
I THINK don't what to talk for others. If a program has more then 1 team at a age group,
they should battle it out for a playoff spot. I like winning as the next guy. But is this about winning or for the kids. Should one group have 2 or 3 teams at state? or give 8 different teams a spot. Look at the 4 regions, 1 is full of top teams by rankings. The other 3 have 1 to 2 teams. So if 1 of those unranked team stick a top 5. Go to state, finish 3rd or 4th should they keep that spot. And the #1 at state loses. were will they finish? Can a team from a so called weaker district go to regions won out get to state win then lose out. what place do they get?

PeeWee A example - look at West region, 2 will make it to state - right? Only 1 team in this region has a chance to finish top 10 just about no matter what happens. Other teams in top 10, from other regions, will not make it to state, still deserve to finish top 10 in state final polls based on regular season, tournaments, strenght of schedule, etc.. Simple.

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:27 pm

I don't see it that way. Come playoff time each team is 0-0-0
I feel people are missing the point. Because 1 group has 100 kids they should get more? And a group with 15 gets less. Or is it about what toys they bring home? That 1 group needed to say my B1's finished 1,2,3 in state. People who watch hockey know what teams can and can't play. After the state tourney get the top 10 or 20 teams (team vs team picked out of a hat, no ranking system) and have a old fashion 1 lose and out tourney. Teams pay to cover ice, refs etc. Any money still left over goes to a good place.
But people would still say we finish 3rd in state and lost in the 1st round of this cheesey tourney and want to be ranked 3rd. If you don't win it. Isn't 2nd = 100th

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:36 pm

I see your points HD.

We just think the "body of work" concept is adopted by more people vs. STMA finishing 8th in state at PWA this year, when they have been ranked 10-12 all year while Tonka or Edina who doesn't qualify, but all year were 5-9. They shouldn't drop out.

TS

snyper12 · Post by **snyper12** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:37 pm

HOCKEYDRIVER wrote:I don't see it that way. Come playoff time each team is 0-0-0
I feel people are missing the point. Because 1 group has 100 kids they should get more? And a group with 15 gets less. Or is it about what toys they bring home? That 1 group needed to say my B1's finished 1,2,3 in state. People who watch hockey know what teams can and can't play. After the state tourney get the top 10 or 20 teams (team vs team picked out of a hat, no ranking system) and have a old fashion 1 lose and out tourney. Teams pay to cover ice, refs etc. Any money still left over goes to a good place.
But people would still say we finish 3rd in state and lost in the 1st round of this cheesey tourney and want to be ranked 3rd. If you don't win it. Isn't 2nd = 100th

Ranking system for amusement/fun. I don't know but I am guessing Lakeville N was not in the top 10 for high school rankings last year before or after the state tournament. I would bet heavily if East or Tonka were to not make it to the state this year they would still be top 10 at the end of the year. The system YHH seems to be employing, which is probably similar to a system by Lets Play Hockey, is par for the course.

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:57 pm

WHY
Are you going to hurt someone feelings.
You are. The group of kids that made it and are not ranked.
Which group is right?
If a team makes state. Rank them 1 thru 8.
So if EAST(1) and Tonka(2), are a no show at state they should be in the top 5.
I guess we agree to disagree.

Survey · Post by **Survey** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:08 pm

This thread is beating a dead horse...

snyper12 · Post by **snyper12** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:12 pm

HOCKEYDRIVER wrote:WHY
Are you going to hurt someone feelings.
You are. The group of kids that made it and are not ranked.
Which group is right?
If a team makes state. Rank them 1 thru 8.
So if EAST(1) and Tonka(2), are a no show at state they should be in the top 5.
I guess we agree to disagree.

And your in a very small minority. Never heard of a ranking system such as yours in any sport at any level.

Post by **karl(east)** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:18 pm

HOCKEYDRIVER wrote:WHY
Are you going to hurt someone feelings.
You are. The group of kids that made it and are not ranked.
Which group is right?
If a team makes state. Rank them 1 thru 8.
So if EAST(1) and Tonka(2), are a no show at state they should be in the top 5.
I guess we agree to disagree.

While I think there is some good justification for valuing performance under the pressure of the playoffs more than regular season games, I don't suggest throwing out the regular season entirely. If it is, why bother with the results of the regular season games?

Another reason: as someone who does rankings at the HS level, I rely on Bantam A rankings from the previous year to get an idea of which teams are going to get a nice boost in the coming season. (Obviously Bantam success does not always line up with HS success, but if you look at the numbers carefully, there's valuable information there.) If a top team happens to go down in regions and drops out of the top 8, or if a 40th-ranked cinderella team makes a run through a weaker region and then ends up in the top 8, I'd have a very skewed picture of how talented those teams actually are.

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:43 pm

Survey- I'm kicking it again

snyper12- What I was saying is if 1 & 2 don't make state.
And were ranked that all year.
Should they be ranked in the top 5 or even top 8 ?
? Should WBL HS be ranked higher then Johnson HS
Even with beating them and not getting to state.
Isn't the playoffs a play down to the top team?
? 20-0 TeamX ranked #1 all year, loses in the first round
of the playoffs. Finshed 20-1 still a top 8 team?
Maybe #9 at the highest.

TS- The team we talked about earler. Breaking the top 10 on your pole.
Would they stay in the ranks if a no show for state.

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:59 pm

Karl- Watching a bantam doesn't always mean they are going to that HS.
Your right. Thing happen.
I just think if a team makes the run. Give them the points. Because if you do your rankings by just #'s They get (in general youth) 1 lose in districts and 1 in regions, (HS it's only 1) no matter what seed they are. Or rank!

snyper12 · Post by **snyper12** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:30 pm

HOCKEYDRIVER wrote:Survey- I'm kicking it again

snyper12- What I was saying is if 1 & 2 don't make state.
And were ranked that all year.
Should they be ranked in the top 5 or even top 8 ?
? Should WBL HS be ranked higher then Johnson HS
Even with beating them and not getting to state.
Isn't the playoffs a play down to the top team?
? 20-0 TeamX ranked #1 all year, loses in the first round
of the playoffs. Finshed 20-1 still a top 8 team?
Maybe #9 at the highest.

TS- The team we talked about earler. Breaking the top 10 on your pole.
Would they stay in the ranks if a no show for state.

I don't have time to look into team by team, etc. to tell you where I analytically think certain teams should land at year end. Just saying there is no sense beating up the ranking system - it seems legit, has legit reasonsing, and it seems very similar to most of what I have ever seen in other sports at all levels as well.

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:15 pm

I'm not trying beat up any ranking system.
I enjoy reading and talking about them.
I just think the longer a team plays in the playoffs the higher the rank.
? what other ranking system are you talking about. Pro's go by record for playoffs, Then the deeper they get the lower the draft pick. College- wins ,loses plus some computer # sysytem(that one is pretty screwed up) for a bowl game or bracket playoffs.
Just having some fun asking ?'s And hearing what people say.

FlowForShow4 · Post by **FlowForShow4** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:06 pm

Mahtomedi BB1 should be in top 10. They beat Roseville, Stillwater Red, Stillwater Black twice, and the undefeated NSP team.

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:15 pm

Have they played any of the top 10, besides NSP?

FlowForShow4 · Post by **FlowForShow4** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:26 pm

Yeah, one of the Wayzata teams. Either Gold or Navy i think it is. Not Blue though. They lost 5-3.