Lakeville South vs Winona? Please tell me this is false...

[elliott70]

This happens every year in every sport.

The solution is simple,
if you are a fan, cheer for your team.
If you are a coach, coach your team.
If you are a player, play the game.

Classy or classless, there is no right answer.
A youth coach of a very good bantam team said, it is difficult as a coach to stop your kids from scoring on an easy opponent.
A high school player said it is an honor to play against the best players, I just do my best.

[muckandgrind]

Just got home from the EP-Armstrong game tonight and was searching box scores on mnhockeyhub. I click through the games, and see Lakeville South defeated Winona 19-0. I then see Mr. Hockey candidate Justin Klooos with 8 assists. I am thinking to myself; how is this possible? I then check the box score and see he had 2 assists in the 3rd period including one with 15 seconds to go in the game up 18-0. Did the South coach really have him on the ice in this situation?

Please tell me this is a mistake. Was anyone at the game to see this?

Kloos could end up being the state points leader when all's said and done this year. Why wouldn't coach allow him to rack up the points? He's worked hard and had a great career - doesn't he deserve it??? Plus to have a player bring that title to their town is a pretty good thing for hockey there.... Just my opinion.

I agree. Coaches don't schedule these games. They just happen and they have to be played. This is a stupid argument that takes place on this board every year. It sounds to me like the Lakeville coach played one period pretty straight up and then got creative and let his guys have fun. They did back off as best they were able without telling there guys to sit down on the ice. What do you want? Obviously, Kloos' job in the 2nd and 3rd was to try and help feed his buddies some points that they don't normally get. His last game on home ice after a great career. It's ridiculous to say he should be off the ice or that there was any more chance he'd get hurt tonight than any other night. One team was just that much better. If they'd wanted it to be, it could have been much more lopsided.

You're obviously a fan of LS....Most superior teams would sit their top line once the outcome was no longer in question. And I can't think of any team (I guess other than LS) that would have their best player on the ice with under a minute to go and up 18-0.

This was a completely classless move and karma will be a bee-atch.

[Jimbo99]

i graduated from winona and i have to side with the south supporters here. I played in the game last year against south and as much as it sucks to be losing by a lot i enjoyed skating against kloos at the end of the game last year because every shift i went out with the intention of trying to stop him. sometimes i succeeded sometimes i didnt. I knew it was going to be tough. what is kloos supposed to do say coach i wanna take my stuff off im done. my coach offered to let me take my gear off for the third of a blowout last year but i turned it down because i wanted to play. why should he have to miss 1 or 2 periods just because he cant be stopped? he shouldnt be punished by not being able to play the game he loves in an already short season just because he has talent. hats off to justin for playing a hard game because thats what every player should do when they step on the ice no matter what game it is.

The classiest and most intelligent post here and everyone ignores it. This thread should be locked here until everyone can grow up a bit.

[muckandgrind]

i graduated from winona and i have to side with the south supporters here. I played in the game last year against south and as much as it sucks to be losing by a lot i enjoyed skating against kloos at the end of the game last year because every shift i went out with the intention of trying to stop him. sometimes i succeeded sometimes i didnt. I knew it was going to be tough. what is kloos supposed to do say coach i wanna take my stuff off im done. my coach offered to let me take my gear off for the third of a blowout last year but i turned it down because i wanted to play. why should he have to miss 1 or 2 periods just because he cant be stopped? he shouldnt be punished by not being able to play the game he loves in an already short season just because he has talent. hats off to justin for playing a hard game because thats what every player should do when they step on the ice no matter what game it is.

The classiest and most intelligent post here and everyone ignores it. This thread should be locked can grow up a bit here

I think the only adults around here are the ones that understand the concept of "sportsmanship". And a coach who understands that term does not run up the score by keeping the top player(s) on the ice in that situation. The fact that he was on the ice with under a minute to go is what cements it for me.

If I was the LS Activities Director, I'd have a little talk with my coach to make sure this scenario never plays out the same way.

Are you saying that you would do the same thing? You have no problem with it?

[Sats81]

I know for a fact they weren't, so please don't make things up!

http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/news_article ... ferrer_id=

Hey Mule-I know you may think you know everything but please read the ENTIRE link I posted above and YOU, my friend PLEASE stop making things up!

Not in a play-off game.

That's not the point Elliot. Whether its a regular season game, playoff game or preseason scrimmage! And YES, the Broten line was sat in first round section games. If you are gonna post on something, (other than bemidji) be factual.

[keepyourheadup]

This is not the first or last time we'll see this...see BSM results...but it seems the LS coach messed up. There have been several arguements defending South's use of its top players late in this game but I find none of them compelling enough to to justify it. They backed off several teams during the year when they could have put up a big number so I don't understand why last night was any different. Its unfortunate that this game had to be played but there just has to be a better way to handle it.

[mn miracle man]

This is not the first or last time we'll see this...see BSM results...but it seems the LS coach messed up. There have been several arguements defending South's use of its top players late in this game but I find none of them compelling enough to to justify it. They backed off several teams during the year when they could have put up a big number so I don't understand why last night was any different. Its unfortunate that this game had to be played but there just has to be a better way to handle it.

Well the way I look at it, Ammerman, Winona's Rookie Coach, was on that Moorhead team that beat Monticello like 27-0 back in 2004 and maybe Lakeville was paying back a favor? Karmas a b**** apparently....

[RickyTicky]

Kloos and 4 other seniors were sent out with less than a minute left so that they could end their final home game on the ice. I am sure Winona did the same thing, as a lot of coaches do, as a sign of gratuity and respect for seniors who deserve it. It was not so they could keep running up the score. Call it what you will, I know the seniors and their families appreciated it..

[muckandgrind]

Kloos and 4 other seniors were sent out with less than a minute left so that they could end their final home game on the ice. I am sure Winona did the same thing, as a lot of coaches do, as a sign of gratuity and respect for seniors who deserve it. It was not so they could keep running up the score. Call it what you will, I know the seniors and their families appreciated it..

Don't they have a "Senior Night" where they acknowledge the players? This is a playoff game.

[Defensive Zone]

I do believe the South coaching staff blew this one. In previous posts, there was some mention that the Winona team lost a few games by a pretty substantial margin. With that said, the South coaches, my guess, had an idea that this section game could be won within the first or second period. The South coaching staff should have been prepared to have the third line and even a swing line ready to play the majority of the minutes during the third period. Looking at the box score, this did not happen. The MSHSL has a set of coaching principles for a reason. My guess, there are words in this code like fair play, sportsmanship, teaching, leadership, etc. So ask yourself, did this occur during the play of this game?

[WendyClark]

This is not the first or last time we'll see this...see BSM results...but it seems the LS coach messed up. There have been several arguements defending South's use of its top players late in this game but I find none of them compelling enough to to justify it. They backed off several teams during the year when they could have put up a big number so I don't understand why last night was any different. Its unfortunate that this game had to be played but there just has to be a better way to handle it.

Well the way I look at it, Ammerman, Winona's Rookie Coach, was on that Moorhead team that beat Monticello like 27-0 back in 2004 and maybe Lakeville was paying back a favor? Karmas a b**** apparently....

Might want to check again who Jon Ammerman coaches for...

[longdistancespectator8]

One small note also, If you look at the boxscore Matt Lembeck scored the 4th goal of the game. That was his first varsity goal (I think) in what might have been his first actual varsity playing time. It appears from just a boxscore that Weber was playing everyone the whole game. That being said having played for LS and been apart of multiple blow outs against teams like Bloomington Kennedy, I know we backed off in those days , and would play our 3rd and 4th the whole third period. As keepyourheadup said, I don't know what was different about last night. Maybe LS third and fourth lines were that much better too. The only plausible answer for having the big names in in the third period is that Coach Weber wanted the seniors to be on the ice in their last ever home game.

[RickyTicky]

[quote="muckandgrind"][quote="RickyTicky"]Kloos and 4 other seniors were sent out with less than a minute left so that they could end their final home game on the ice. I am sure Winona did the same thing, as a lot of coaches do, as a sign of gratuity and respect for seniors who deserve it. It was not so they could keep running up the score. Call it what you will, I know the seniors and their families appreciated it..[/quote]

Don't they have a "Senior Night" where they acknowledge the players? This is a playoff game.[/quote]


It was a playoff game that was over before it even started.. running time a couple minutes into the 2nd period. I have a nephew who is a senior on the team and I know he appreciate ending his Lakeville career on the ice. Some people will look at the box score and think thats classless to have them out there with a minute left but all I am saying is it wasn't to run up the score.. I realize it looks bad but they don't have a history of doing this like BSM so I don't think it was to show anyone up

[hitthepost]

Mulefarm has it right, Winona wants to play in AA, GOOD FOR THEM! More then STA, Warroad and Breck can say. I hold more respect for the Winona kids then the lifetime class A sandbaggers.

[almostashappy]

Kloos and 4 other seniors were sent out with less than a minute left so that they could end their final home game on the ice. I am sure Winona did the same thing, as a lot of coaches do, as a sign of gratuity and respect for seniors who deserve it. It was not so they could keep running up the score. Call it what you will, I know the seniors and their families appreciated it..

Kloos and 4 other seniors were sent out "with less than a minute left"?

Hmmm...let's look at that scoresheet.

3rd Period Summary
Time Team Scoring Detail Score
2:34 Lakeville South Charlie Heller Goal
Assists: Alex Harvey , Justin Kloos WINONA 0 - LKVL S 14
3:27 Lakeville South Michael Chuinard Goal
Assists: John Wiitala WINONA 0 - LKVL S 15
9:30 Lakeville South Matt Lemeck Goal
Assists: Justin Kloos , Joe Freemark WINONA 0 - LKVL S 16
12:21 Lakeville South Michael Chuinard Goal
WINONA 0 - LKVL S 17
14:05 Lakeville South Grant Gangeness Goal
Assists: Shane Hill , Alex Harvey WINONA 0 - LKVL S 18
16:45 Lakeville South Joe Freemark Goal
Assists: Justin Kloos WINONA 0 - LKVL S 19

So is it also a sign of gratuity and respect to send out the seniors with less than 15 minutes left, and less than eight minutes left, and less than three minutes left?

[seek & destroy]

One small note also, If you look at the boxscore Matt Lembeck scored the 4th goal of the game. That was his first varsity goal (I think) in what might have been his first actual varsity playing time. It appears from just a boxscore that Weber was playing everyone the whole game. That being said having played for LS and been apart of multiple blow outs against teams like Bloomington Kennedy, I know we backed off in those days , and would play our 3rd and 4th the whole third period. As keepyourheadup said, I don't know what was different about last night. Maybe LS third and fourth lines were that much better too. The only plausible answer for having the big names in in the third period is that Coach Weber wanted the seniors to be on the ice in their last ever home game.

I think another part of the problem is that stats are more public and well organized then ever before (online on the HUB). Many coaches are allowing their players to pile on points to help them 'look good'. As much as people say that scouts don't care about points, top point getters are the thing recorded in the paper, on the front page of the HUB (and listed under each team page) and something people talk about all the time (see other threads looking to list 100, 200 pt+ etc.). Stats are more public then ever, get constant attention and therefore competition for points sometimes gets out of hand. Some coaches have people in charge of changing recorded stats, adding extra assists and going out of their way to boost points for their players. It's no wonder that players on these teams start thinking that getting credit and putting up points is nearly as important as winning the games.

I also don't like the format of H.S. hockey letting every team into the playoffs. It creates these awful games where you have 1 & 2 seeded teams destroying the 7 & 8 seeds. Just a few other scores from last night:

Eagan 12 Rosemount 0
Edina 15 Kennedy 1
Burnsville 9 Shakopee 0
Minnetonka 12 Mpls. 0
Hermantown 11 Moose lake 1
St. Thomas 11 Sibley 1

Do any of these games benefit either team? They are a wasted game that coaches are forced to deal with on their schedule. In most cases it is the final home game for seniors and coaches want to let them play but everyone knows the scores are going to be lopsided. They play their best goalies so he can get game prep before the game in a few days, they let their PP lines work out any final kinks and they try to cool the scoring down without actually telling kids to not try anymore. Playing 3rd and 4th lines more can actually increase the scoring because they are out to get goals.

As long as MSHSL sets these games up, there are going to be blowouts. As long as there are blowouts there are going to be people complaining that the coaches handled things wrong. It sounds like the LS coach switched guys to different positions, played them less and at least backed his top scorer from scoring goals. I would prefer to see a coach sit players starting earlier in the game (once the lead is 5 goals). I think this was the more common method in the past but things seem to have changed.

[RickyTicky]

Were you at the game? I see you can quote the score sheet very well but it doesn't always tell the story. It's funny how no one from Winona has said anything about it, in fact, one guy from Winona thought it was just fine but the usual Lakeville bashers are on here whenever they get a chance to get a jab in.. It was a terrible game to watch, coach and play in I am sure.. things could of been done differently but in the end its not the first time this has happened and won't be the last so let it go and focus on Saturday already!

[xy]

You try to give people the benefit of the doubt and search for something that makes their actions more understandable . . . but I'm having an awfully hard time finding a way to look at this that doesn't make Kurt Weber look absolutely horrendous. Leave aside the obvious isuses of sportsmanship (not that they're irrelevant; didn't Weber coach South in their first year, when they had no seniors and won something like 2 games total, so that he'd know what it's like on the other side?). The bigger issue is, what possible good could have come from playing Kloos, Harvey, and Freemark at all in the third period, with the exception of a swan song laft shift at home (remember, Kloos and Harvey each had two third-period points before the last-minute goal)? Nothing that comes even close to making it worth the risk of their getting injured.

And think of it this way - this is a team and coach that faces all sorts of pressure after what happened in the Section final the last two years, and does not need any sort of distraction. They should be focused solely on what they have to do to beat North. And now, because of how the third period unfolded last night, they're dealing with all sorts of questions about sportsmanship, class, and exactly what went on. Even if you don't believe in karma and things like that, running up the score like this creates something they absolutely didn't need. You almost wonder if the pressure has gotten to him and is clouding his judgment. I find it impossible to justify what Weber did last night.

[observer]

From the MSHSL website,

This team is a cooperative sponsorship between: Saint Charles High School, Winona High School, Cotter High School, Hope Lutheran High School

Winona has 997 students on their own. Probably should be single A but the co-op put them over. For me these are the towns that are what single A means. My guess is they only have a player or two from some of the other high schools and maybe zero. In some of these co-op instances I believe they should be able to play single A based on some criteria.

[Jimbo99]

This is not the first or last time we'll see this...see BSM results...but it seems the LS coach messed up. There have been several arguements defending South's use of its top players late in this game but I find none of them compelling enough to to justify it. They backed off several teams during the year when they could have put up a big number so I don't understand why last night was any different. Its unfortunate that this game had to be played but there just has to be a better way to handle it.

I disagree. Few are acknowledging the coach's obvious efforts. He played one period fairly straight up, running three lines. For the rest of the game, everyone played (reducing the top players' ice time considerably)and most of the time the starters were out they played out of their normal positions, including entire forward lines of defensemen. It was obvious at times that players would decline to shoot in an effort to try and feed someone who doesn't normally score much. This was all an effort to allow his players to skate hard to stay ready for sectional play, and have fun with their buddies while keeping the score reasonable.
The way I see it, this is also as respectful as any team can be to a lesser team. My kid has been on the wrong end of lopsided scores several times in his life. Nothing pisses him off more than when the other team benches their top players. That is the most arrogant move a coach can make. Kids want to play against the best. They get it. It's the parents who are upset about the score.
"Gosh, Johnny, aren't you embarassed?" "No, dad, we played our best. They're just better than we are. Kloos is good isn't he?"
There was no attempt to run up the score, none. And every attempt to be sportsman-like.
It also needs to be mentioned that there's not always a lot you can do when the puck just keeps going in the net. If the goalies pick it up a few percentage points, there is no blowout.
This game was not materially different than any of the lopsided games last night, during the season, or during the history of high school hockey in Minnesota. They happen because it's the nature of the beast.
This thread exists solely because there is a large group of people on this board who consider it sport to slam anything Lakeville.

[elliott70]

http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/news_article ... ferrer_id=

Hey Mule-I know you may think you know everything but please read the ENTIRE link I posted above and YOU, my friend PLEASE stop making things up!

Not in a play-off game.

That's not the point Elliot. Whether its a regular season game, playoff game or preseason scrimmage! And YES, the Broten line was sat in first round section games. If you are gonna post on something, (other than bemidji) be factual.

The point is they did not sit in the stands in play-off games.
They may not have played in the final period or may not have played at all in those first round games.

[muckandgrind]

This is not the first or last time we'll see this...see BSM results...but it seems the LS coach messed up. There have been several arguements defending South's use of its top players late in this game but I find none of them compelling enough to to justify it. They backed off several teams during the year when they could have put up a big number so I don't understand why last night was any different. Its unfortunate that this game had to be played but there just has to be a better way to handle it.

I disagree. Few are acknowledging the coach's obvious efforts. He played one period fairly straight up, running three lines. For the rest of the game, everyone played (reducing the top players' ice time considerably)and most of the time the starters were out they played out of their normal positions, including entire forward lines of defensemen. It was obvious at times that players would decline to shoot in an effort to try and feed someone who doesn't normally score much. This was all an effort to allow his players to skate hard to stay ready for sectional play, and have fun with their buddies while keeping the score reasonable.
The way I see it, this is also as respectful as any team can be to a lesser team. My kid has been on the wrong end of lopsided scores several times in his life. Nothing pisses him off more than when the other team benches their top players. That is the most arrogant move a coach can make. Kids want to play against the best. They get it. It's the parents who are upset about the score.
"Gosh, Johnny, aren't you embarassed?" "No, dad, we played our best. They're just better than we are. Kloos is good isn't he?"
There was no attempt to run up the score, none. And every attempt to be sportsman-like.
It also needs to be mentioned that there's not always a lot you can do when the puck just keeps going in the net. If the goalies pick it up a few percentage points, there is no blowout.
This game was not materially different than any of the lopsided games last night, during the season, or during the history of high school hockey in Minnesota. They happen because it's the nature of the beast.
This thread exists solely because there is a large group of people on this board who consider it sport to slam anything Lakeville.

Shots were 81-12....24 shots in 3rd period after being up 13-0. Yeah, no attempt to run up the score......sure.

[Vinko Bogataj]

Kloos and 4 other seniors were sent out with less than a minute left so that they could end their final home game on the ice. I am sure Winona did the same thing, as a lot of coaches do, as a sign of gratuity and respect for seniors who deserve it. It was not so they could keep running up the score. Call it what you will, I know the seniors and their families appreciated it..

Kloos and 4 other seniors were sent out "with less than a minute left"?

Hmmm...let's look at that scoresheet.

3rd Period Summary
Time Team Scoring Detail Score
2:34 Lakeville South Charlie Heller Goal
Assists: Alex Harvey , Justin Kloos WINONA 0 - LKVL S 14
3:27 Lakeville South Michael Chuinard Goal
Assists: John Wiitala WINONA 0 - LKVL S 15
9:30 Lakeville South Matt Lemeck Goal
Assists: Justin Kloos , Joe Freemark WINONA 0 - LKVL S 16
12:21 Lakeville South Michael Chuinard Goal
WINONA 0 - LKVL S 17
14:05 Lakeville South Grant Gangeness Goal
Assists: Shane Hill , Alex Harvey WINONA 0 - LKVL S 18
16:45 Lakeville South Joe Freemark Goal
Assists: Justin Kloos WINONA 0 - LKVL S 19

So is it also a sign of gratuity and respect to send out the seniors with less than 15 minutes left, and less than eight minutes left, and less than three minutes left?

Seeing that, I think it was a bad call by the LS Coach. The "class" thing has been argued enough. The other issue is that it only takes one kid from the other bench to say "enough of this crap" and take a run at him. The former Winhawk player who posted here has a great attitude and should be congratulated for it. That said, not every kid can be expected to react the same way and LS is lucky someone didn't take a shot at him. Is Kloos more likely to get injured late in a normal game, probably not. Is he more likely to get run when his team is up 18 with 4 3rd period goals and a minute left? Yup. Bad call Coach- as a Gopher fan I want to see him in Maroon and Gold next year, not sitting somewhere nursing concussion symptoms due to a CFB with a minute left in an 18 goal win.

[HShockeywatcher]

Mulefarm has it right, Winona wants to play in AA, GOOD FOR THEM! More then STA, Warroad and Breck can say. I hold more respect for the Winona kids then the lifetime class A sandbaggers.

Winona is in a co-op with Cotter, Hope Lutheran, and Saint Charles which gives them a AA enrollment. They did not opt up.

i graduated from winona and i have to side with the south supporters here. I played in the game last year against south and as much as it sucks to be losing by a lot i enjoyed skating against kloos at the end of the game last year because every shift i went out with the intention of trying to stop him. sometimes i succeeded sometimes i didnt. I knew it was going to be tough. what is kloos supposed to do say coach i wanna take my stuff off im done. my coach offered to let me take my gear off for the third of a blowout last year but i turned it down because i wanted to play. why should he have to miss 1 or 2 periods just because he cant be stopped? he shouldnt be punished by not being able to play the game he loves in an already short season just because he has talent. hats off to justin for playing a hard game because thats what every player should do when they step on the ice no matter what game it is.

Instead of speculating, take it from a player.

[Jimbo99]

Shots were 81-12....24 shots in 3rd period after being up 13-0. Yeah, no attempt to run up the score......sure.

That's right, just kids playing hockey, pushing the puck toward the net. That's the object, right? This isn't adults playing monopoly with their 6 year olds.

Same aged players, playing in the same league, for the same reasons. They don't make the matchups but they all understand they're going to happen. The way to embarrass the losing team most is to bench the good players or to just play keep away.